Nikola Gruevski

[Vangelovski]

Gruevski and co are suing because they are uninformed and confused amatuers and have demonstrated their amatuerism time and again. You too have demonstrated your uninformed, incoherent and contradictory amatuerism on this forum time and again.

How many times and in how many different ways to you need this explained to you?

[Volk]

I never expected a serious answer from a pro like you anyway...

[Vangelovski]

I never expected a serious answer from a pro like you anyway...

The fact that only further legitimisation of the Interim Accord can be acheived through the ICJ process provides us with only two logical conclusions - that Gruevski is either stupid or a traitor. This has been demonstrated to you over the previous posts, along with fact that your ridiculous ideas are both uninformed and contradictory.

If you have anything of substance to add or if you can address the points put forward already, now would be a good time to do so. To begin with, you may want to actually read the Macedonian application to the ICJ and get a basic understanding of natural law (and how it relates to individuals and groups/nations) before you comment any further.

[Bill77]

Tom,


If ICJ confirms greece broke the accord by blocking Macedonian membership in EU or NATO: Macedonia does NOT gain entry to these clubs.

So why sue then? if it gains nothing.

The gain they expect to get, is ammunition when it comes to diplomacy. Nothing else. But the way EU are disinterested, this ammunition will be blanks.


Oh, and regarding the domestic front, this would keep the pro EU locals quiet for a while by showing them we (the gov) are fighting for it.

[Volk]

Tom I suggest you visit my points and address them, you are incapable of this so no more need to waste time.

The gain they expect to get, is ammunition when it comes to diplomacy. Nothing else. But the way EU are disinterested, this ammunition will be blanks.

If that is the strategy its pointless, because everyone already knows greece blocked us.

[Vangelovski]

I have addressed your posts Volk, as usual, you pretend I haven't, but they are here for all to see. Maybe you should clearly state what YOU think Gruevski is doing at the ICJ, rather than contradicting yourself in every post. Then I can refer you back to where I have already addressed that idiotic "analysis".

[Bill77]

Tom I suggest you visit my points and address them, you are incapable of this so no more need to waste time.



If that is the strategy its pointless, because everyone already knows greece blocked us.

Yes true, but Greece spreads bullshit that they have the right. The courts will be the judge of that.

[Volk]

I have addressed your posts Volk, as usual, you pretend I haven't, but they are here for all to see. Maybe you should clearly state what YOU think Gruevski is doing at the ICJ, rather than contradicting yourself in every post. Then I can refer you back to where I have already addressed that idiotic "analysis".

I have no intention of playing the never ending merry-go-round with you Tom. Its all been posted on my end, all you can do is dismiss with your rude arrogance and avoid.

[Risto the Great]

Winning the ICJ case does not provide Macedonia with an avenue to admittance into NATO and EU as FYROM, it only proves that greece broke the accord, which opens all sort of opportunities for Macedonia like reinstating the original flag and negating FYROM in general.

I think this is where the conversation went explosive.

Volk, going to the ICJ is the exact opposite of what you have said above. Winning the ICJ case proves the Macedonian government will do anything to keep the new flag and FYROM. I have no idea why you feel like arguing such a clear observation of facts.

Unless you are one of the kind of people that thinks everything will change once FYROM enters EU/NATO. In which case FYROM will be more powerful to dispense with FYROM in favour of Macedonia. Is this your belief? (Not that winning the ICJ case will ensure entry anyway)

[Vangelovski]

A brief summary of Volk's contradictions:

Winning the ICJ case does not provide Macedonia with an avenue to admittance into NATO and EU as FYROM, it only proves that greece broke the accord, which opens all sort of opportunities for Macedonia like reinstating the original flag and negating FYROM in general.

It does however show that the accord has been broken, which then gives Macedonia leverage (even a legal right) in withdrawing from the 'talks' as they are part of the accord.

We don't need the ICJ to provide us with "leverage" or a "legal right" to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void' and end the negotiations. If you want a moral and 'legal' justification, think about what 'null and void' and national sovereingty actually mean. This has been explained to you ad nauseum. But you continue to be governed by ignorence and your devotion to Gruevski.

I agree.

I never said this was the right avenue to go about it, so do not assume that I have simply because my interpretation of the process is logical and your is not.

I'm still not sure where he made his "point". All I can see is a baseless defence of Gruevski's idiocy.

[Pelister]

Greuvski is held hostage not by greece but by the majority of Macedonians that want entry to NATO and EU. Terminating talks would mean an end to this 'dream' to the majority of people which would probably mean the fall of this government and the rise of one which would accept ANY terms

Dont be so short sighted, the problem is the people and their slave, defeatist mentality.

God, this sounds so much like UMD propoganda.

The 'negotiations' were initiated by the West to overcome the acronym FYROM at the United Nations, hence the 'UN mediator'. Initially it had nothing to do with entry into NATO or the E.U, which only proves the point just how much of a policy blunder the decision to tinker with our identity has been. The tragedy is that we have never actually been blocked from the United Nations, so our decision to 'negotiate' our entry into that organization, was a clever piece of deciept which the Macedonians bought hook, line and sinker. The problem we have now is that Gruevski is aware of our rights and aware we are not blocked. The propoganda being spread by Gruevski and by UMD is that we are negotiating to get into the E.U and NATO. What happened to the UN? Why has that policy strategy been entirely sidelined, as it is the only sensible and realistic one. Gruevski is lying to you and to the Macedonian people, and so is UMD. There is ofcourse the other issue that because of the 'negotiations' our political extinction is in real time political play, and there is ofcourse the other problem, that Macedonia was never Greek.

[Volk]

Whats the contradiction Tom?

Macedonia DOES NOT gain entry into NATO or EU through the ICJ case, so my interpretation for its initiation is completly different to yours.

Your understanding is that Macedonia is trying to enter these institutions through an ICJ case...which you yourself have admitted is not possible your reasoning is that "Gruevski is an amature".

I dont agree with the ICJ avenue, so I am not defending it, I am objecting to your reasoning for its initiation... KAPISH? Do you finally 'understand now'.



Pelister I think its high time the Macedonian people took responsibility here

Macedonians need to wake up and stop being manipulated by outside forces.

We are responsible for our own destiny!

[Risto the Great]

Volk, you said winning the ICJ case creates opportunities for Macedonia. Now you are saying you don't agree with it. Are you saying Macedonia has more opportunities if it does not pursue the ICJ case. To be honest, it is difficult keeping up with you.

[Vangelovski]

Whats the contradiction Tom?

Macedonia DOES NOT gain entry into NATO or EU through the ICJ case, so my interpretation for its initiation is completly different to yours.

Your understanding is that Macedonia is trying to enter these institutions through an ICJ case...which you yourself have admitted is not possible your reasoning is that "Gruevski is an amature".

I dont agree with the ICJ avenue, so I am not defending it, I am objecting to your reasoning for its initiation... KAPISH? Do you finally 'understand now'.



Pelister I think its high time the Macedonian people took responsibility here

Macedonians need to wake up and stop being manipulated by outside forces.

We are responsible for our own destiny!

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about?????

[Ottoman]

Its time for me to go to Macedonia one day and meet some people, I always love a good conversation about history and peoples.
I dont think Macedonians got any problems with Turks, how would I be welcomed there?