Nikola Gruevski

[Volk]

Tom,

Now that you have admitted the ICJ cannot enforce anything, your whole argument has fallen to pieces.

If it had the power to enforce, then I would completely agree with you.

[indigen]

If the acknowledgment and celebration of our history (for the first time) has 'no substance' in your eyes then truly I feel sorry for you.

Which part of our culture and history is "acknowledged" officially by Gruevski and his Government via MANU, state education curricular of the education systems or cultural agencies such the one directed by Pasko Kuzman?

It would be very EDUCATIONAL for some DELUDED Macedonians to accurately and FACTUALLY know how Gruevski and Co (his Government and Administration) justify the building of the statute of "Aleksandar Veliki" (NOT Aleksandar III Makedonski)! Thus I dare Volk and Co to either ACCEPT the FACTS (because they have been presented many times here and can be read often in the Media) or stop PEDDLING DISINFORMATION and CHEAP PROPAGANDA!

FYI: Gruevski and his administration publicly say they are paying homage to a world historical figure when justifying the "Alexander Veliki" Airport renaming and the proposed building of the alexander statute in Skopje (which may also be a bargaining chip in the name negotiations!). Some of this info may be found in earlier posts of this thread!

If he is no better than previous PMs perhaps you are not acquainted with the PMs of the past:

On the name issue, Gruevski's current policy is in fact WORSE THAN ANY OTHER PREVIOUS MACEDONIAN GOVERNMENT POSITION!!! Check your FACTS and don't divert to other issues!

Branko Crvenkovski - Robbed the country, runs the mafia and is backed by greece. Openly supports a name change.

Their policy positions are not that very different when actually compared, at least the results is the same - FURTHER AND FATAL MACEDONIAN NATIONAL DECONSTRUCTION!

Ljubco Georgievski - Bulgar version of Crvenkovski, open calls Macedonians Bulgarians, robbed the country and orchestrated 2001 to try to join Macedonia with his mother bulgaria.

And Gruevski was a HAPPY little MUPPET agreeing to everything the LG government did, at least opposing nothing!

Vlado Buckovski - puppet of Crvenkovski, masterminded the territorial divide of Macedonia by ethnic lines and handed over Struga to the albanians which nearly got him killed by the people.

And Gruevski is now IMPLEMENTING EVERYTHING THESE FUCKERS LAID OUT, and adding SOME MORE, with Kichevo to be handed over shortly to the Ghegs!

The interim accord cannot be enforced by ICJ and you are well aware of this, blatant example of a misleading statement on your behalf.

It can be validated and thus Macedonia tightens the noose around her own neck at her own instigation!

Winning the ICJ case does not provide Macedonia with an avenue to admittance into NATO and EU as FYROM, it only proves that greece broke the accord, which opens all sort of opportunities for Macedonia like reinstating the original flag and negating FYROM in general.

It proves nothing but is validating an anti-Macedonian deconstruction agenda and giving cover for further (or final) capitulation, IMO!

Pasko Kuzman supposedly represents the Gruevski government's policy on our historical heritage and any finds from the Macedonian Era (Period) he officially designates as Macedonian-Hellenic. This is clearly NOT DEFENDING MACEDONIAN HISTORY OR HERITAGE BUT PURE SUBMISSION TO THE GREEKS (ALSO BULGARS, GHEGS, SERBS AND IC ANTI-MACEDONIAN SCUM!) and IS in line with adhering to the INTERIM ACCORD (which Gruevski and Co are legitimising via the ICJ case) and exposes your claims that Gruevski is a defender of Macedonian history and heritage as either deluded imagination or cheap lie/s!

[George S.]

as far as i'm concerned anyone bargaining with the enemy especially our name is a TRAITOR
nothing more nothing less.Anyone else who thinks otherwise has rocks in his head.

[Vangelovski]

Tom,

Now that you have admitted the ICJ cannot enforce anything, your whole argument has fallen to pieces.

If it had the power to enforce, then I would completely agree with you.

The topic of discussion was Gruevski's treasonous acts not the power of the ICJ. How has my arguement "fallen to pieces"? Explain. How is Gruevski's acceptance, implementation and legitimisation of the Interim Accord predicated on the ICJ? The fact that he is attempting to legitimise the Accord by seeking an International Court to ENFORCE it is just one of many examples of his committment to that tool of national deconstruction.

[Vangelovski]

Which part of our culture and history is "acknowledged" officially by Gruevski and his Government via MANU, state education curricular of the education systems or cultural agencies such the one directed by Pasko Kuzman?

It would be very EDUCATIONAL for some DELUDED Macedonians to accurately and FACTUALLY know how Gruevski and Co (his Government and Administration) justify the building of the statute of "Aleksandar Veliki" (NOT Aleksandar III Makedonski)! Thus I dare Volk and Co to either ACCEPT the FACTS (because they have been presented many times here and can be read often in the Media) or stop PEDDLING DISINFORMATION and CHEAP PROPAGANDA!

FYI: Gruevski and his administration publicly say they are paying homage to a world historical figure when justifying the "Alexander Veliki" Airport renaming and the proposed building of the alexander statute in Skopje (which may also be a bargaining chip in the name negotiations!). Some of this info may be found in earlier posts of this thread!

This is a very good point - Gruevski and his government have taken out the 'Macedonian' from our history and have redefined it as some sort of "common" regional history. Much the line that UMD has been pumping ever since.

[Soldier of Macedon]

if a government that has refused to change the name is replaced with one that has openly announced it would do so "bend backward to please greece" (not sure what kind of sick sexual position they are thinking of)
guess what would happen?? a name change. Its up to the people.

The name has already been changed in the international arena, Volk. What has Gruevski done to reverse this? Nothing. And now, he is negotiating with foreigners on what they should call us, in addition to making Greece abide by the agreement which obligates them to accept us in international organisations by the acronym. I would rather Gruevski quit than keep stagnating like we have been for the last 20 years, and let the chips fall where they may. Either Macedonia will sink, or a revolution will begin.

For anybody that has watched the movie called 'Mongol', there is a scene in which Temujin Genghis Khan makes a speech to his men, where he states the following (or something along these lines):

If 1 Mongol flees from battle, death to 10 of his compatriots. If 1000 Mongols flee, death to all Mongols.

Basically, if most Mongols are cowards and/or traitors, then the Mongols as a people aren't worthy of existence. With the above, I am not suggesting 'death' for any Macedonians. I just want to highlight that if some Macedonians today aren't prepared to defend their honour and integrity, then maybe they don't deserve the memory for which their ancestors fought so hard for. The time for talk (regarding our identity and national integrity) and half-measures is done. We need to see positive action from Macedonian leaders, so we can end the shame which has crippled our people for the last 20 years.

Winning the ICJ case does not provide Macedonia with an avenue to admittance into NATO and EU as FYROM, it only proves that greece broke the accord, which opens all sort of opportunities for Macedonia like reinstating the original flag and negating FYROM in general.

Volk, please re-read what you have written and tell me how it makes sense, given that Gruevski is suing Greece for not allowing Macedonia to enter by the acronym. What opportunities will open for Macedonia? Do you honestly think that the reinstatement of the original flag is on Gruevski's list of priorities (or list of any kind, for that matter)? The whole point of Gruevski taking Greece to the ICJ is to open the way for Macedonia's entry into NATO and the EU by the acronym. How can you possibly deny this?

[Volk]

let the chips fall where they may. Either Macedonia will sink, or a revolution will begin.

Maybe your right... Sometimes people need to be forced into action. However using the past 20 years as an indicator it not very rosy is it...

tell me how it makes sense, given that Gruevski is suing Greece for not allowing Macedonia to enter by the acronym. What opportunities will open for Macedonia?

I will explain it very simply:

Why does Macedonia sue when the ICJ will bring a non binding ruling?
Even if Macedonia wins, it does not gain EU or NATO membership, thus there has to be another reason for doing so.

Since it cannot gain membership to these clubs via the court, the only thing the court ruling can prove is that greece broke the accord thus opening the door for it to be called null and void.

This then opens other theoretical doors.

Do you honestly think that the reinstatement of the original flag is on Gruevski's list of priorities (or list of any kind, for that matter)?

No. However with the agreement void the door is open for this in the future.

The whole point of Gruevski taking Greece to the ICJ is to open the way for Macedonia's entry into NATO and the EU by the acronym

How can this possibly be the case if the court is non binding and has no power?

[Vangelovski]

Volk,

I know you don't quite grasp this, but one cannot declare something Null and Void by attempting to enforce it, or in other words, you cannot accept something as legitimate and binding and use it as the basis for satisfaction of grievances through court proceedings and then declare it Null and Void. Its a complete contradiction of terms. By using it as the basis for undertaking court proceedings, you have DEMONSTRATED that you do not view the agreement as null and void!

Further, you still have not shown us how Gruevski's treason is predicated on the ICJ, to which you alluded earlier.

[Volk]

Tom,

I will spell it out for you considering you have a hard time grasping this.

If ICJ confirms greece broke the accord by blocking Macedonian membership in EU or NATO: Macedonia does NOT gain entry to these clubs.

So why sue then? if it gains nothing.

It does however show that the accord has been broken, which then gives Macedonia leverage (even a legal right) in withdrawing from the 'talks' as they are part of the accord.

Since we cannot gain entry to the clubs there needs to be another reason to take them to ICJ, kapish?

[Vangelovski]

We don't need the ICJ to provide us with "leverage" or a "legal right" to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void' and end the negotiations. If you want a moral and 'legal' justification, think about what 'null and void' and national sovereingty actually mean. This has been explained to you ad nauseum. But you continue to be governed by ignorence and your devotion to Gruevski.

[Volk]

We don't need the ICJ to provide us with "leverage" or a "legal right" to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void' and end the negotiations.

I agree.

But you continue to be governed by ignorence and your devotion to Gruevski.

I only have devotion for Macedonia.

I never said this was the right avenue to go about it, so do not assume that I have simply because my interpretation of the process is logical and your is not.

[Vangelovski]

I never said this was the right avenue to go about it, so do not assume that I have simply because my interpretation of the process is logical and your is not.

WTF??? What are you on? How is it that you now supposedly agree with me and claim that you don't believe this is the appropriate course of action but still maintian that your previous arguements were logical????

What is obvious is that you have absolutely no understanding of what is happening or the underlying principles on which these actions are based. You even admitted to not having read the Macedonian application for proceedings, yet you still feel fit to comment on the case!?!?!?

[Volk]

Tom, what is obvious is your comprehension skills need some work.

I've proved my point and you have avoided the critical basic question, yet again like you always do.

Pozdrav

[Vangelovski]

Tom, what is obvious is your comprehension skills need some work.

I've proved my point and you have avoided the critical basic question, yet again like you always do.

Pozdrav

Your point?? You've provided an uninformed, contradictory, pathetic and incoherent excuse for Gruevski's legitimisation of the Interim Accord at the ICJ. As for the "critical basic question", please spell it out for us - I can confidently say that most informed readers of this thread were lost in your confusion and could not identify it...

[Volk]

Cut the garbage and answer the very basic question which illustrates the whole argument:

Tom,

I will spell it out for you considering you have a hard time grasping this.

If ICJ confirms greece broke the accord by blocking Macedonian membership in EU or NATO: Macedonia does NOT gain entry to these clubs.

So why sue then? if it gains nothing.

Since we cannot gain entry to the clubs there needs to be another reason to take them to ICJ, kapish?