Nikola Gruevski

[Bill77]

We have had many Macedonians (and some here on MTO) sugest the deal is done, Gruevski has sold us out. We also have many saying our government is brainwashing the citizens with how glorious EU is so this name change can go through with minimal drama. There have evan been some sugestions that our government are making our citizens suffer in every day life so EU would be a brighter option.

On the other hand, the EU are now sugesting the citizins resistance is credited to the Government, i.e. VMRO-DPMNE

Someone better have evidence when these claims are made. How Gruevski has not aged or lost his hair, i'll never know. I will also say this, i know there are many anti Gruevski here at MTO, and evan i am cautious when it comes to politicians. But i have so much respect for our Prime Minister because how calm he always seems to be when he is coping it left right and centre.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

The embargo was one-sided. What do you think would have happened if the Gligorov government showed some sense and blocked our side of the border? Macedonians were not allowed to cross, yet Greek firms travelled freely. What kind of an idiotic reaction was that from the Macedonian side? How long do you think the embargo would have lasted had our side closed the border as well?

Are you actually asking this question? Are you seriously considering that if we had closed our border that we would have ended the blockade sooner?
By the way, it was not a one sided blockade...

While the Greek blockade effects all products flowing into or
out of Macedonia by way of Greece, its environmental impact stems
from its impact on oil imports. "The largest components of
Macedonian industry have a strong energy intensive character."(17)
Oil, or some substitute, must then be found and in significant
quantities.

You claim the embargo was devastating? It was 18 months - get over it. Everyone cries about wanting to make life 'easier'. How about some sacrifice? How about some hard work? How about fulfilling our responsibilities (yes freedom demands responsibility not just rights) rather than just banging on about how "devastating" an embargo would be?

I don't claim, it is a fact Vangelovski, and anyone who denies it's impact on Macedonia is either not facing reality, or living in a dream world. And that is very easy for you to say, oh 18 months under an economic blockade, big deal, it was a very big deal for Macedonia.

Did you read the source I posted for you, or did you conveniently ignore it? Would you like me to provide you with more evidence, or are you capable of doing your own research?

Pages 219-221 are of particular importance. I can also site for you individual economic data recordings of the time if you like.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Iny...edonia&f=false

18 months straining our gas/oil supply, how do you run tractors without gas? Then without tractors, how do we maintain agricultural production? Then with decreased agricultural production, supply of food and products decreases, and prices skyrocket. Many Macedonians living in the cities suffered tremendously, and those farmers who could not afford to run their tractors for very long, also faced bankruptcy. It also forced Macedonian combustion power plants to use low grade coal to produce electricity, which saw pollution levels rise tremendously.

The Macedonian people have sacrificed. How can you talk about hard work, when a farmer cannot afford to run his tractor, The effect of the blockade on oil prices has been to increase the cost of transporting crude oil from $19 per ton to $41.50 per ton.


I think you need to make yourself familiar with the facts about the blockade, and not speak on matters which you don't understand.

Read this detailed case study on the Blockade, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

http://www1.american.edu/TED/macedon.htm

[Prolet]

We have had many Macedonians (and some here on MTO) sugest the deal is done, Gruevski has sold us out. We also have many saying our government is brainwashing the citizens with how glorious EU is so this name change can go through with minimal drama. There have evan been some sugestions that our government are making our citizens suffer in every day life so EU would be a brighter option.

On the other hand, the EU are now sugesting the citizins resistance is credited to the Government, i.e. VMRO-DPMNE

Someone better have evidence when these claims are made. How Gruevski has not aged or lost his hair, i'll never know. I will also say this, i know there are many anti Gruevski here at MTO, and evan i am cautious when it comes to politicians. But i have so much respect for our Prime Minister because how calm he always seems to be when he is coping it left right and centre.

Finally a realistic comment i agree Bill

Its more then clear that some people dont want to see us in the EU so if thats the case then so be it, we got our dignity and we have enough self respect not to allow somebody to do whatever they like with us.

I have never seen Gruevski come out to be a smart arse to our people or disrespect us in anyway, he's never once come out and blamed anybody else for his failures and he is probably the only one who's come out and admitted to making mistakes but at least he's held firm in what he believes in, he doesnt change his mind all the time like his counterparts.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

There are many peoples who've suffered much, much worse and sacrificed so much more for their own freedom and did it without the defeatist attitudes that you so regularly display. If it were up to people like you, we would have changed our name back then and have been done with it...actually, we did, we signed over our sovereignty to a foreign state and are now known as FYROM.

According to YOUR link, the Macedonian economy was not as devastated as you would like us to believe – for the purpose of retrospectively justifying the Interim Accord. According to YOUR link, Macedonian agriculture was doing quite well, even with the blockade:

Lucky for Macedonia it still has a considerable agriculture sector, amounting to 23.3 percent of GNP. This has allowed Macedonia to continue feeding itself when states such as Croatia were facing severe food shortages due to trade disruption from the Yugoslav war.

Further, YOUR link also claims that:

Unofficial economic relations between Macedonia and Greece are growing in response to the blockade. For instance, numerous Greek businesses have established satellite branches in Bulgaria to carry on trade with Macedonia. As one Greek commentator addressing the some 100 Greek companies involved in skirting the blockade put it, nobody dislikes low labor costs.

Had Macedonia squeezed Greek firms such as these, they in turn would have pressured Athens to lift the blockade because of the money they would have lost. Yet Macedonia, like the good little puppet it was, allowed the Greek side to freely travel and work, through and within the state,

Economic discomfort is NOT an excuse to deny freedom for your countrymen (or yourself). Why don’t you have a think about some of the states that have been in a similar position, some for nearly two decades and compare their resilience with Macedonia’s...or yours. And no, I’m not talking about America’s self-described “Axis of Evil” countries.

[Bill77]

Prolet, He has also defended the traitors from a anti Gruevski media dep recently (i think A1) when they were under attack. He felt freedom of speach was more important than the personal criticism and lies towards him. If it was me, i would have locked them up or taken legal action. Its water of a ducks back for him. We need someone cool calm and colected in power.

[julie]

Bill and Prolet, would one of you 2 lovely gentlemen enlighten me on his logic in calling a referendum for a name change?

[Bill77]

Bill and Prolet, would one of you 2 lovely gentlemen enlighten me on his logic in calling a referendum for a name change?

Imho it is very logical for the citizens to decide on our future and not politicians. Have we not been saying this all along. I do not fear of the result. The latest poll not only confirms this, but also confirms we have had enough of EU pushing us.

[Dimko-piperkata]

@Bill77

we have had a referendum in the year 1992.

i cant remember that at regular intervals other countries hold up referendums on their names.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

There are many peoples who've suffered much, much worse and sacrificed so much more for their own freedom and did it without the defeatist attitudes that you so regularly display. If it were up to people like you, we would have changed our name back then and have been done with it...actually, we did, we signed over our sovereignty to a foreign state and are now known as FYROM.

Once again, easy for you to say considering that you were not subject to the adverse effects of the blockade. I do not condone the capitulation, nor am I justifying it. I am not arguing about the decisions made in the past, I am trying to conceive of contingency strategies so that we would not face the same circumstances in the future. It is very naive of you to think that just because people have sacrificed and suffered so much more than we have, that WE MUST do so in order to secure our freedom, especially when we possess the capabilities to achieve our goals at a significantly cheaper cost.

According to YOUR link, the Macedonian economy was not as devastated as you would like us to believe – for the purpose of retrospectively justifying the Interim Accord. According to YOUR link, Macedonian agriculture was doing quite well, even with the blockade:

Lucky for Macedonia it still has a considerable agriculture sector, amounting to 23.3 percent of GNP. This has allowed Macedonia to continue feeding itself when states such as Croatia were facing severe food shortages due to trade disruption from the Yugoslav war.

Once again, you fail to understand what the real situation was... This blockade, combined with the UN sanctions on Serbia and Montenegro, cost the economy an estimated $2 billion by the end of 1994. Macedonia's per capita GNP fell from $1,800 to less than $760 because of the sanctions and the Greek blockade. A more than 58% decrease in GNP, 23.3% of this being agricultural means that yes we did have food, but what else did we have? and if this blockade persisted, would Macedonia be able to meet the demands and necessities of it's citizens? Not only that, but it cost the entire economy $2 billion, when the GDP for the country only totaled $3.386 Billion in 1994. What does that tell you? Again, if you possessed even a limited understanding of economic determinants, you would not be making these statements.

Funny how you accuse me of retrospectively justifying the Interim Accord, especially when I have neither mentioned it, nor have I even attempted to justify it. Though, I somewhat expected you to take that path, considering you know next to nothing about Economics.

Further, YOUR link also claims that:

Unofficial economic relations between Macedonia and Greece are growing in response to the blockade. For instance, numerous Greek businesses have established satellite branches in Bulgaria to carry on trade with Macedonia. As one Greek commentator addressing the some 100 Greek companies involved in skirting the blockade put it, nobody dislikes low labor costs.

Correct, but what you don't seem to understand is that Black-Market operations address disparities in Supply and Demand. With limited supply of Greek products in Macedonia, prices rose tremendously, so Greek firms sought a way of reaping the benefits by establishing false subsidiaries in Bulgaria, while the Macedonians, who were actually in need of these products secured them at a lower price than if they were to actually purchase them from other sources. though the cost of doing business through a black market is still tremendously higher than through legal markets. This is basic Supply and Demand theory...

Had Macedonia squeezed Greek firms such as these, they in turn would have pressured Athens to lift the blockade because of the money they would have lost. Yet Macedonia, like the good little puppet it was, allowed the Greek side to freely travel and work, through and within the state,

This is a misguided notion, especially considering that Greek firms were not particularly dependent on Macedonian markets, and the fact that they made a higher profit selling black market Greek goods to Macedonians at a premium. These companies that partook in trade with Macedonia at the time did so because of the increased profit from the blockade, not because of profits lost due to the blockade...

Macedonia only let Greek black market operations continue because there were no cheaper alternatives. Dealing with Greek firms was still cheaper than dealing with Bulgarian importing firms to the huge transport costs.

Economic discomfort is NOT an excuse to deny freedom for your countrymen (or yourself). Why don’t you have a think about some of the states that have been in a similar position, some for nearly two decades and compare their resilience with Macedonia’s...or yours. And no, I’m not talking about America’s self-described “Axis of Evil” countries.

I am sorry, but it was a bit more than Economic discomfort, this statement alone attests to your lack of knowledge on the issue.

One state that has thrived through an Economic boycott for nearly 40 years is Cuba. But ask yourself, how has Cuba managed to thrive despite a complete US boycott? It has managed to secure several other cheaper alternative markets for their exports, and have secured cheap markets for their imports. Which is exactly what I have been advocating for Macedonia for the past several years... It is not my fault that you seem to lack the ability to comprehend the extreme relevance of Economics on the grave situation facing Macedonia.

I have already addressed our alternative prospects, and as of yet, we are still not able to secure cheaper alternatives than Greece for our Economic dependence, though we are nearing that goal with each passing day.

[Bill77]

@Bill77

we have had a referendum in the year 1992.

i cant remember that at regular intervals other countries hold up referendums on their names.

Dimko, thats because no other country e machena kako nashta.

Corect me if i am wrong, The referendum is realy about EU entry, just that the name issue is highlited because it will be a consequence of entering this club.

Now it looks like the people are waking up, and no longer is the issue whether it's worth changing our name for EU entry, but is it worth entering EU evan if we were to keep our name.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Dimko, thats because no other country e machena kako nashta.

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.
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epa deka sme tolku izmacheni, logichno e da se machime li ushte ?

[julie]

Pa shto treba poveke za naroden nash samo da igrame uloga vo ratsete na dushmanite? Koga ke stanat na nodse, da bidat hrabri i da im rechat da odite vo pitcha materin koga nie samo da vikame , ayde luyge, pak trebama da imame referendum oti na glavata ni se serat! Shto sakame da sme sega, dali ushte sem Makedontsi pak?

Come on Bill. How many more referendums does Macedonia need to call? This panders to the stupidity and hypcrosy further for those damn negotations.

Thinkg about it. Why keep calling referendums , why continue to negotiate? We have given up so much already, lets keep RoM for ourselves shall we seeing we have lost everything else

[julie]

epa deka sme tolku izmacheni, logichno e da se machime li ushte ?

Navistina, take e bratchko.

[Bill77]

epa deka sme tolku izmacheni, logichno e da se machime li ushte ?

samite se machime nikoj drug. ama kazi pravo, posledniot pat ko grcia ne napraja blokada za vleguvajne EU dali befne naluteni? oti?

kje ti kazam zashto, oti pred da nauchime vistinata kako bilo vo zajednicata, site molefne boga da vlezime. ako ne site pojketo lujge. zato na ovoj stepen stignafne. nachi nie si go barafme. a sega se razbudvame i znajme ovie vo evropskata zajednica kurvi se.

Sega da glasame za nema vlegvajne, kje mu dajme rachka na vlasta za da izlezime od negotiations bez da ima krivica na vlasta od natvoreshni zemji. i so ova glasajne, ke mu se kazi na svetot deka makedonskiot narod i samo makedonskiot narod imat pravo for there own destiny. isto taka kje znat makedonskiot narod ne se prosti ne se davame.

[Prolet]

Prolet, He has also defended the traitors from a anti Gruevski media dep recently (i think A1) when they were under attack. He felt freedom of speach was more important than the personal criticism and lies towards him. If it was me, i would have locked them up or taken legal action. Its water of a ducks back for him. We need someone cool calm and colected in power.

Well Said Bill,

If you recall, Grujo took Frcko to court for Klevetenje when he wrote that disgraceful article in Dnevnik and he basically accused him of all sorts of things. Grujo won 30 thousand euros in damages and he gave all of it to charity, they then forced the Government to stop taking legal action against Media personell because apparently its not free press which apparently the Government is accused of blacking out the media somehow while Defamtion is perfectly normal in that sense.

Dimko is right, theres already been one referendum in 1991 and there wont be another one, why should there be? If the EU is not prepared to accept our Democratic and Biblical Name then why should we join them?