South Australian Premier Mike Rann, an enemy to Macedonians

[Bill77]

And the fact remains that you did support Boskovski, but you have since stopped supporting him, just as Meto has stopped supporting a name change, and I would call that an admission of being wrong. I'd call this progress.

Hey buddy, Fact is, once SoM and many others realised the turd Boskovski was a traiter, They denounced him. Fact is, Meto made Traitorous comments and you frigan Defend him by making excuses. They are the real facts. So its about time you show progress.

[Vangelovski]

And the fact remains that you did support Boskovski, but you have since stopped supporting him, just as Meto has stopped supporting a name change, and I would call that an admission of being wrong. I'd call this progress.

Buktop,

The crucial difference is that SoM, like myself and many other patriotic activists, supported Boskovski - particularly during 2001 - because he was one of few Macedonian politicians that actually defended the Macedonian state from terrorist agression. Basically, SoM supported Boskovski so long as Boskovski supported the cause.

Meto on the other hand, supported a name change and still believes that his support for the "Democratic" prefix was justified "at the time".

Whereas SoM never supported anti-Macedonian acts or ideas, Meto (and yourself through your defence of his actions/ideals) did and continues to do so.

[Buktop]

Sure it is, but if you can't be realistic about it yourself how would one expect you to accept is such?

Is that supposed to make it 'OK', or insignificant? The President of the UMD made the statement on behalf of his organisation. Your continual justification of this irresponsible act leads me to believe that you agree with him.

Is that what you call 'justification'? How can the Macedonian Diaspora ever have confidence in the UMD to do the right thing, going forward, particularly given Meto's reluctance to accept it as a mistake?


I am not justifying my previous decision. He is.

See what? You've given nothing, and I have had it with your apologist stance on behalf of these people. No matter what evidence is presented to the contrary of your bizzare beliefs and explanations, the truth will not suffice. You are a blind UMD apologist, which makes you no better than they are. Continue supporting this organisation Buktop, you belong with them. Here, I will admit to another mistake of mine, actually believing that you were capable of understanding logic and the implications of what the UMD have said and done.

The fact that these people were for a name change to Macedonia does not bother you, well, it bothers me, let the Macedonians judge who is just in this matter, and tochka.

SoM, I am not apologizing for anything, I am not defending anti-Macedonian policies, and I am not a blind UMD stooge. Whether or not you choose to understand what I say is up to you, I am tired of responding to your allegations and conspiracy theories. It doesn't matter what I say to you because you have your own disposition. You have said your peace, and I have provided my position and why I have that position. I don't know why you are still trying to change my opinion of UMD, this is evidence of destructive intent on your part and I find it very unbecoming.

I have had the pleasure of working with Meto, and I have followed UMD's actions for a while now. If supporting UMD makes me an idiot and less Macedonian than yourself then so be it, I would rather support something that I know for a fact to be beneficial and be hated than disregard it just to remain in good standing with the mob on this forum.

[Buktop]

Buktop, You cant deny that there have been some concerns about the UMD, im not into an all out attack against them but they do need to take responsibility for their actions. We cant afford to have blind trust in organizations anymore, if there are any doubts or suspicions they need to be cleared up right away otherwise it will spread like a wild fire and its going to take alot of effort in clearing it up. I was very impressed with Meto's speech here and thats all good, however its up to him to turn things into reality i dont believe he was talking unrealistically however we simply cant tolerate empty promises anymore.

I am not trying to say don't question, don't criticize, etc... I am saying when the intent of the discussion is malice and detriment to an organization based on mistakes made over 2 years ago, then there is something wrong with the reasoning of such concerns. This is leading to the complete discrediting of the entire organization and any benefit the organization has contributed and possibly could contribute.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't know why you are still trying to change my opinion of UMD, this is evidence of destructive intent on your part and I find it very unbecoming.

Intent to destruct and deconstruct something detrimental to the Macedonian Cause? You better believe it. You refer to patriotic Macedonians who don't accept the UMD's treacherous behaviour as a 'mob', yet you, who supports an organisation that supported a change to the name of our state, are what, a righteous Macedonian? Please. Of course you are an UMD apologist, don't be so modest. I have no doubt you have had the 'pleasure' of working with Meto, your apologetic stance and uncompromising defence of this compromised individual wreaks of bias. It has been that way with you since day 1 of this debate.

You and Meto should stick to fundraisers, god help us all if the UMD ever obtain a position of actual influence (as opposed to their self-glorification on the internet) where it concerns the Macedonian identity.

The crucial difference is that SoM, like myself and many other patriotic activists, supported Boskovski - particularly during 2001 - because he was one of few Macedonian politicians that actually defended the Macedonian state from terrorist agression. Basically, SoM supported Boskovski so long as Boskovski supported the cause.

Meto on the other hand, supported a name change and still believes that his support for the "Democratic" prefix was justified "at the time".

Whereas SoM never supported anti-Macedonian acts or ideas, Meto (and yourself through your defence of his actions/ideals) did and continues to do so.

Thanks Tom, couldn't have said it better myself. However, I don't think it matters how one explains it to apologists like Buktop anymore, these people only see what they want to see.

[Buktop]

Intent to destruct and deconstruct something detrimental to the Macedonian Cause? You better believe it. You refer to patriotic Macedonians who don't accept the UMD's treacherous behaviour as a 'mob', yet you, who supports an organisation that supported a change to the name of our state, are what, a righteous Macedonian? Please. Of course you are an UMD apologist, don't be so modest. I have no doubt you have had the 'pleasure' of working with Meto, your apologetic stance and uncompromising defence of this compromised individual wreaks of bias. It has been that way with you since day 1 of this debate.

You and Meto should stick to fundraisers, god help us all if the UMD ever obtain a position of actual influence (as opposed to their self-glorification on the internet) where it concerns the Macedonian identity.

SoM, I never said I was more patriotic or more righteous than anyone here, I only said that I really don't give a shit if you hate me for supporting UMD, I think it is beneficial for the diaspora, and I don't see you attempting to rectify the issues, I see you trying to destroy them. Given this, I can make the suggestion that you are anti-Macedonian, were I a lesser man I would, but we all know that isn't the case. (do you see the point I am trying to make?)

This UMD issue that has consumed the forum can best be described as Groupthink. A movement appeared that was anti-UMD and a majority of the members of the forum jumped on board without even bothering to evaluate the situation.

Once again, Did the UMD ever officially issue a policy statement adopting or supporting the Democratic prefix? Does Meto have the sole authority to create UMD policy? Does it matter to you that Meto has changed his position?

Thanks Tom, couldn't have said it better myself. However, I don't think it matters how one explains it to apologists like Buktop anymore, these people only see what they want to see.

The road goes both ways my friend...

[Rogi]

I expect that, naturally, SoM will respond with his rebuttal, however if I may, I'd like to preempt with a suggestion that it be more of a final closing statement rather than one that will continue this cyclical and endless (and at this stage, pointless) discussion.

I think it is time this thread died, unless someone wants to bring it around to something useful about the South Australian MP who is using Australian tax-payer money to work against the Macedonian people?


This thread has by now gone well beyond serving any purpose, if it ever did, everyone has made their case (in fact, repeatedly) and is beginning to detract too much time that could be far better spent on positive patriotic initiatives and discussions.

Let's move beyond this, because it's killing me. I need to read useful discussions, this forum is a source of motivation, so don't drag it down.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, I never said I was more patriotic or more righteous than anyone here, I only said that I really don't give a shit if you hate me for supporting UMD, I think it is beneficial for the diaspora, and I don't see you attempting to rectify the issues, I see you trying to destroy them. Given this, I can make the suggestion that you are anti-Macedonian, were I a lesser man I would, but we all know that isn't the case. (do you see the point I am trying to make?)

Anti-Macedonian? I am not the who has advocated a name change or supports an organisation that has advocated a name change, give yourself a slap and wake up, Buktop, your posts are now venturing into the realm of idiocy, I would have said that you're better than that, but perhaps you're not.

A movement appeared that was anti-UMD and a majority of the members of the forum jumped on board without even bothering to evaluate the situation.

Without bothering to evaluate the situation? So, in your opinion, the majority of the members of the MTO are ingorant, while you and a handful of other apologists are the only clique that have 'evaluated' the situation? I consider that an insult, as I am sure the majority of the members of the MTO do.

Did it ever occur to you, Buktop, that you and your fellow comrades are in the wrong for supporting an organisation that has previously advocated for a name change, and who's President still justifies that advocacy? So long as the UMD leadership continue to be dishonest about past mistakes, self-respecting Macedonians with integrity will challenge them. If they can be honest with themselves and the Macedonian Diaspora, these same Macedonians can be a powerful support network. It is up to them in the end, and they haven't shown promising signs in this regard thus far.

Once again, Did the UMD ever officially issue a policy statement adopting or supporting the Democratic prefix? Does Meto have the sole authority to create UMD policy?

The above confirms beyond doubt, that you are the biggest UMD apologist. What a pathetic set of questions that have been addressed time and time again. Watch the video again, but before you do, learn how to comprehend the English language properly, I am not going to keep producing the same quotes for relentless apologists like you.

Does it matter to you that Meto has changed his position?

Yes it does, he was prepared to sellout the name, now he isn't. Does it matter to you that he sees nothing wrong with his previous position, and even justifies it still today?

[Buktop]

Anti-Macedonian? I am not the who has advocated a name change or supports an organisation that has advocated a name change, give yourself a slap and wake up, Buktop, your posts are now venturing into the realm of idiocy, I would have said that you're better than that, but perhaps you're not.

Without bothering to evaluate the situation? So, in your opinion, the majority of the members of the MTO are ingorant, while you and a handful of other apologists are the only clique that have 'evaluated' the situation? I consider that an insult, as I am sure the majority of the members of the MTO do.

Did it ever occur to you, Buktop, that you and your fellow comrades are in the wrong for supporting an organisation that has previously advocated for a name change, and who's President still justifies that advocacy? So long as the UMD leadership continue to be dishonest about past mistakes, self-respecting Macedonians with integrity will challenge them. If they can be honest with themselves and the Macedonian Diaspora, these same Macedonians can be a powerful support network. It is up to them in the end, and they haven't shown promising signs in this regard thus far.

The above confirms beyond doubt, that you are the biggest UMD apologist. What a pathetic set of questions that have been addressed time and time again. Watch the video again, but before you do, learn how to comprehend the English language properly, I am not going to keep producing the same quotes for relentless apologists like you.

Yes it does, he was prepared to sellout the name, now he isn't. Does it matter to you that he sees nothing wrong with his previous position, and even justifies it still today?

Do you even read what I write, am I writing in some language that you can't understand? Where the hell do you draw these conclusions from? SoM, you are either purposely misrepresenting what I write or you just don't seem to understand it. I am done wasting my time arguing with you, everything I write is apparently a personal attack or some sort of validation of anti-Macedonian policy. I think we are done here.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Done, you certainly are, thanks for sharing your views and opinions with us, we are all clear with the fact that you support an organisation that has previously advocated a name change, and who's president still justifies that previous position.

Long live Macedonia.

[Buktop]

Done, you certainly are, thanks for sharing your views and opinions with us, we are all clear with the fact that you support an organisation that has previously advocated a name change, and who's president still justifies that previous position.

Long live Macedonia.

The lack of a UMD adoption or policy change in support of the Democratic prefix is a little strange isn't it? It is funny how the only place we even hear of the Democratic prefix is in the ZMR interview.

It is clear that you are incapable of being reasonable, or at the very least understanding what I have written above. You equate my support of UMD with a defense of a name change and anti-Macedonian policy, and we all know that is not the case, and that is a childish assumption.

I expected better from you SoM.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It is funny how the only place we even hear of the Democratic prefix is in the ZMR interview.

Did you find it funny when only a few weeks ago in Adelaide Meto justified his advocacy for the 'democratic' prefix? Do you find it funny that this is the President of the UMD? Do you find the terms "we" and "our" funny given their pluralistic and all-inclusive nature? I don't find any of it funny, I find it disturbing.

You equate my support of UMD with a defense of a name change and anti-Macedonian policy......

The UMD advocated a name change, is that a pro-Macedonian or anti-Macedonian act? Answer the question, Buktop. You try and justify Meto's behaviour during this period. We are past matters of opinion, the facts are obvious.

[julie]

Dnevnik: Rann not to apologize Macedonian President

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n211069

Dnevnik: Michael Rann not to apologize Macedonian President



23 February 2010 | 11:02 | FOCUS News Agency



Skopje. “I have no intention to apologize to Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov and I think he is stealing history,” said South Australian Prime Minister Michael Rann, Macedonian Dnevnik newspaper writes.
The edition reads further Australian media have sited the statement of Macedonian Ambassador to Austria Pero Stojanovski, saying Macedonia’s support on Australia’s nomination for impermanent UN Security Council member state will depend on Rann’s apology.

[osiris]

"stealing history "is this guy a serious person or just a bozzo.

[maslinka]

I am not trying to say don't question, don't criticize, etc... I am saying when the intent of the discussion is malice and detriment to an organization based on mistakes made over 2 years ago, then there is something wrong with the reasoning of such concerns. This is leading to the complete discrediting of the entire organization and any benefit the organization has contributed and possibly could contribute.

OK BT, what about the UMD's visionary alliance with the MPO? I suppose you'll accomodate them the benefit of the doubt on that front too? Hmmm let's just stand around and not mention the two big fat white elephants in the room. Intention to do the right thing is one thing entirely, but cocking up 2 of the most important issues to Macedonians is just fucking stupid.