Gjorgje Ivanov

[George S.]

A tip on how to win friends & influence people.A bit of a turnup for the books.Going out of their way to please the greeks.I suppose it's a mark of respect.

[Brian]

@Mods
There are a few threads on the NATO/name issue, eve just going back 2 pages from this one. Maybe the could be merged?

If this article doesn't say there's a need for a '2 finger salute' to NATO/EU and plonk an Russian base in the middle (or West) of RoM, what does? Enough already.

Foreign policy magazine: What does the name? For Macedonia

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=96D0B342C9D67F45905BA56837564EA2

04/05/2012
Foreign Policy Magazine - When NATO member countries will meet at a summit in Chicago, four countries will compete for membership in the transatlantic alliance. For the small Balkan country of Macedonia only thing that hampers membership is its name.

Bosnia still has a constitutional reform to be implemented before becoming eligible for membership in NATO. Georgia recently called aspirant for NATO membership, its application is hampered by the Russian occupation of its two territories. Montenegro and is assigned the Action Plan for NATO, the last step before the membership, and move forward with steady pace. But for Macedonia which was assigned to the Action Plan for NATO membership in 1999, probably will not formal invitation to join Chicago as a member country of NATO, Greece still requires Macedonia to change its name. - Macedonia's bid was blocked by Greece over the name of the country, spanning 17 years, said the BBC during the NATO summit in Bucharest in 2008. Athens says it is a claim to territory on its northern province "which is also called Macedonia - and BJRM wants to change its name in the New or Upper Macedonia." Now, four years later, not even from close to be resolved.

On Tuesday 54 Congressmen sent a letter to President Barack Obama asking him to help end this impasse. strongly urge your administration to ensure that NATO will finally offer the Republic of Macedonia deserved a formal invitation to join the Alliance Summit said in a letter sent by Kandis Congressmen Miller and Mike Turner. The letter indicates that Macedonia has ispolento all krietriumi membership in NATO and quoted Obama who in April 2009 saying "I look forward to the day when we will welcome Macedonia in the Alliance. "

Macedonia was a region of concentration of NATO operations in Kosovo in 1990, which offer refuge to 360,000 Kosovars and fought shoulder to shoulder with NATO forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, Macedonia should be invited into the tent of NATO said in the letter. support from Congress for Macedonia's entry is provided by two laws in Congress. Senate version of the draft law zajkanuvanje NATO was represented by U.S. Senator Dick Lugar, a version for Congress from Turner.

However dispute the name of the country still stands in its path. U.S. vice president Joe Biden met with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski in Washington in February 2011, and the White House sent a statement after the meeting saying "The vice president expressed hope that Macedonia and Greece will resolved along the long dispute about the name, and Macedonia to move forward seeking membership in NATO and isplonuvanjeto its Euro-Atlantic aspirations. " Last December, lawyers for Macedonia's NATO membership thought the solution to the dispute is found when the International Court of Justice ruled by 15 votes for and one against Greece violated its international obligations by blocking Macedonia's NATO under the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" name Macedonians think is a reasonable compromise. But the Obama administration this court decision is not change the status of the dispute. Asked for comment by Tulse Cable, spokesman for the National Security Council White House Tommy Vietor referred to the following statement made at the Summit in Bucharest in 2008. - I recognize the hard work and commitments demonstrated by Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to NATO values and Alliance operations. gave thanks for their efforts to build multi-ethnic society. Within the UN many participants tried hard to resolve the name issue, but the Alliance notes with regret that these talks have not resulted with success. therefore agreed that an invitation to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will be granted as soon as a mutually acceptable solution on the name will be achieved. We encourage the negotiations to continue without delay and expect to complete the pobzro. Allies remain committed to this position, says Vietor.

[Voltron]

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/177901.html

Ivanov interview

President Gjorge Ivanov: NATO invitation will improve Macedonia-Greece relations

08. April 2012. | 18:00

Source: MIA, Kathimerini

President Gjorge Ivanov in an interview with Greek newspaper "Kathimerini" talks about the relations between Macedonia and Greece, the name issue, forthcoming NATO summit in Chicago, the judgment of the International Court of Justice in the Hague, country's Euro-Atlantic integration bid, monuments, naming of streets...

President Gjorge Ivanov in an interview with Greek newspaper "Kathimerini" talks about the relations between Macedonia and Greece, the name issue, forthcoming NATO summit in Chicago, the judgment of the International Court of Justice in the Hague, country's Euro-Atlantic integration bid, monuments, naming of streets...

MIA publishes the interview in full.

Lately, there has been some movement in the relations between your country and Greece? How would you evaluate the result of all that?

There is a breath of fresh air in the personal relations between the leaders of both countries, and this has started several years ago with a series of meetings at the level of Prime Ministers. I regret that there is still no positive response to my invitations sent to President Papoulias. Although I have a very active international and regional agenda, it is unfortunate that despite having sent invitations 4 times, we simply cannot have a meeting. Both countries share the vision of a united and prosperous European family, within which it is difficult to explain the fact that there has been no meeting between the presidents of these two neighboring states for 20 years. The idea for a meeting with my counterpart is sincere; to give an additional positive signal to our two societies. There are thousands of things that are binding us, which are of common interest, and, there is only one difference that is not insurmountable. The goal of the meeting would be to follow the needs and interests of both societies, of our citizens who collaborate, communicate, in a wide range of spheres, including the sphere of economy, tourism, culture, education, etc. That is my consistent policy ever since the first day in office. I hope this meeting will happen soon. We do understand that Greece is in a very difficult situation, dealing with difficult issues. That is exactly the reason why we would like this issue to be resolved, so that we could focus on other important issues that are pressing us all. We also ask for understanding, because our integration into NATO and the EU has a strong impact on our society, our economy.

As the Chicago NATO Summit is coming closer, there are more and more talks on whether there will be a discussion on your country’s entrance to the Alliance. Do you consider submitting a request asking for the Bucharest summit decision to be changed and your country to enter the Alliance by the name FYROM?

The Chicago Summit is the first NATO summit after the judgement of the International Court of Justice in the Hague. After this judgment, it is clear that the decision of the 2008 Summit in Bucharest, when Greece blocked Republic of Macedonia’s NATO accession under the provisional reference, is a clear illegitimate act and an act contrary to the Interim Agreement. ICJ also called on Greece to refrain from repeated blockage of Republic of Macedonia in the future, so it is very clear what should be done at the Summit in Chicago, i.e. what our expectations are. Our position is that the judgment can not be ignored by anyone, neither by Greece, nor by the Alliance as an organization. This illegal act which was found by the ICJ did not happen in a certain international non-governmental organization or association so that it can be ignored. On the contrary, we have a conclusion from a summit, the Summit in Bucharest, which is unsustainable in this new situation that needs to be replaced by a conclusion of another summit, the Summit in Chicago. Compliance with signed agreements, as well as the ICJ judgment and the international law, must not be avoided by calling upon the consensus. What would today’s world order look like if treaties were not respected?

A positive decision that would invite Republic of Macedonia to join, as envisioned in the 1995 Interim Accord, would improve the relations between our two countries, Greece would gain a valuable partner and loyal friend, and the entire region will experience greater stability and security. We want to be friends and partners at the same time, and to build our common future together with Greece.

NATO and the EU will join our military forces and our economies together. That does not mean that we agree on all issues, it does not mean that we agree on our view of history, but it means that we have helped our children not to live with unnecessary annoyance or challenges, and live like real Europeans. Especially now when there are issues we need to devote our urgent and full attention to. The greater communication, interaction and cooperation between our two countries, the easier it will be to overcome the difference.

According to your opinion, is Hague's decision going to change the facts regarding the Euro-Atlantic course of your country, which Athens links directly to the resolution of the name issue?

The judgment is extremely important and we expect it to ease the current or any future leadership in Greece to change perceptions or to change policy towards our country, in a responsible manner. The policy may be changed only with sound and authoritative facts. These new facts are as follows:
- That one leadership of your country acted contrary to the taken commitment that had not been imposed to it, rather it was accepted willingly, which is contained in the Interim Accord, “not to block our admission into international organizations under the provisional reference “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”.
- That the Court found that Macedonia acted in good faith in the talks on the name differences, and that it did not violate the obligations under the Interim Accord.
- That Greece should refrain from further blockades.
- That Greece, as a responsible international community member, a member of NATO and EU, has acknowledged and is willing to respect the agreements and the international law.

Hence, the legal part is clear. I hope and believe that Greek politicians will realize that the breach of the agreement signed by the current President Karolos Papoulias implies great damage to the reputation of the state and its position as a reliable international partner.

Are you thinking of submitting an appeal to the UNs Security Council against Greece, if there is no solution on the name issue under the auspices of the United Nations, within a reasonable timeframe?

I would rather believe that we can come to a solution. We are a responsible member of the international community and we fulfill our duties responsibly. We are obliged to such a responsible conduct with the UN resolutions and the Interim Accord, and we respect them. I am convinced that a mutually acceptable, dignified solution for both sides can be reached. Simply, political will is necessary and strict adherence to the framework in which the talks are led, the UN resolutions and the Interim Accord. If the talks go beyond the frame, it is normal that it would be difficult to reach a solution. The Hague judgment is also a serious incentive to seek and find a compromise. It is a kind of a framework of the future behavior of both sides.

You are referring to a reasonable compromise on the name issue which will not affect your nations identity and will not slight the pride of your people. Which kind of formula would bring such a compromise? Could you be a bit more specific?

There is a well developed process of talks between our two countries where the negotiator, Ambassador Nimetz, after hearing the positions of both countries, decides whether he should give a new proposal. We constantly urge the talks to be enhanced and we constantly express our view that we are ready for a solution that would allow us to leave this unfortunate issue behind us. Macedonia maintains the position that the name of the country cannot be seen as a threat or a problem between two countries, and that the Greek position here is, unfortunately, irrational. According to my opinion, the framework for what we discuss and we need to find a dignified compromise for is more than clear. We simply must stick to it; every stepping out of it burdens the process and distances us away from its resolution. For sure, stepping out of the frame is the position of Greece regarding the range of usage of the name. While the relevant UN resolutions and the Interim Accord urge Macedonia and Greece to talk about a mutually acceptable name to be used in international organizations only, Greece demanded the solution to be used in all circumstances, bilaterally and even internally in Republic of Macedonia, which is stepping outside the boundaries of this issue, and makes finding a solution impossible. Some of the Greek demands go into the realm of individual human rights, such as the right of self-identification of a person, implying that the possible solution in such case would be reflected also on the Macedonian national identity, which is contrary to the basic civilization principles, human rights and dignity. This is probably the most irrational demand, since it implies that the Republic of Macedonia even has the authority to request from its citizens to determine themselves according to some national identity we agree upon with Greece. Not a single democratic country can impose something like that on its citizens; that is impossible. Thus, there are issues that simply cannot be part of the talks.

Both Athens and Skopje have drawn red lines regarding the name issue. Do you think that under these circumstances, a mutual acceptable solution is possible without any further concessions by both sides?

Precisely due to the red lines, the proposals need to come from Ambassador Nimetz. It is up to him to see and feel if there is a chance to connect the positions of the two countries, and I hope it can be done in a manner that would protect our national interests and dignity. At the same time, Ambassador Nimetz also needs to take care that the talks and the proposals be within the frameworks of the UN Resolutions and the Interim Accord. Indeed, it is these documents he draws his mandate from.

Greeks feel that your government is trying to steal part of their history by erecting statues and giving names to streets and airports like Alexander the Great or Philip. Do you think that all these contribute to a good climate?

I would like to remind that the international factor has been suggesting discreetly the avoidance of such initiatives.

None of the contemporary states can claim exclusive heritage to culture and history that has developed over the millennia. Equally, we all have the right and also duty to celebrate our common legacy. If anything, this should bring us together, not be a reason for divisions. The cultural heritage of the Ancient period, of the Roman period, the Byzantian or Medieval period, the scientific and cultural contributions our region has given to the World, did not exist according to the contemporary borders. The Republic of Macedonia is richly endowed with historical monuments, just as Greece, or Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia or Turkey is. It is nonsense to try to determine, two millennia after the peak of the ancient civilization, which modern nation should be more deserving of its heritage that properly belongs to the entire World, or that some nation should not be allowed to call upon it at all. Especially, we cannot accept that the demands for exclusivity to this cultural and historical heritage are used in order to impute a lesser worth to other nations. I cannot understand why would it offend a modern Greek citizen if someone else also wants to celebrate common historical events? It does not make a Greek less of a Greek, and I do not understand in what way this can be seen as unfriendly or aggressive.
I accept that historians, history enthusiasts, journalists, from different countries, can have disagreements on the proper role this cultural heritage should have in the contemporary state. But, it is a big mistake to put this debate in the political realm. The Macedonian side in a series of occasions in the past 20 years, has officially proposed joint committees to be established of scientists, historians, tasked with a serious scientific debate about historical facts and their translation in the textbooks of our young generations and in the memory of our two societies, following the example of many other countries that have successfully used this model. Unfortunately, at every occasion, these proposals were rejected by the Greek side.

Are you worried by the late incidents between young people of different ethnic groups? Can these incidents fuel tensions and bring you back to difficult times?

No and there is no turning back. Macedonia is unique among the countries of the Balkans with its functional model of cooperation between different ethnic communities, a model which provides that Macedonians, Albanians, Roma, Turks, Serbs, Vlachs, and the other ethnic communities have their voice in the decision making at the central or the local level. This is a system that is still being developed, but a system that has proven that it can endure under the strains that naturally appear in any of the Balkan countries. Our model of integration without assimilation, a model based on centuries-old traditions, cannot be disturbed by isolated incidents.

^^^ The last part is a big mistake. By not assimilating minorities he is only making them more divisive to the country.

I admit we should be flexible in some areas. It seems that Ivanov is willing to accept a common international name to be used. That IMO should be worked on and not necessarily try to impose a domestic name change.

[Risto the Great]

MMacedonia will be admitted as FYROM. It disgusts me but I think it is a foregone conclusion.

Greeks feel that your government is trying to steal part of their history by erecting statues and giving names to streets and airports like Alexander the Great or Philip. Do you think that all these contribute to a good climate?

Greece has no periphery called "Macedonia". It lies about this all the time. Not that it matters. It renamed its Micra airport in Solun to Makedonia in 1989 from memory. It paid journalists and anyone else to spread a propaganda campaign about the "Greekness of Macedonia" in the 1990's. It has done far more worse things than Macedonia to fuel any tensions. Spare me the rubbish Voltron.

[Voltron]

To me Risto I can agree that we are mishandling the whole thing. Personally, I would try to bring you guys in as much as possible rather than keeping you at arms length. Its a mistake for the Greek government to bet on your demise (which in all honesty it probably is) rather than being a big brother figure based on common religion and history (take that for what its worth). I would not think its a bad idea to setup a committee to discuss historical disagreements. This would be more of a "fusion" committee where they would basically fuse both versions into one common one focusing on the commonalities rather than the differences. It would strenghten our hand against the rising islamisation in the region which to me is a greater threat than your name.

Sometimes, I get the feeling Macedonia is cutting off her nose to spite her face. Kind of like saying to Greece, we are letting these rampant Muslim Albanians run amok so that at the end of the day if we go under you will have them next to your border.

[ProMKD]

Have a committee to discuss historical disagreements? And what would that accomplish besides wasting time and money? They think one thing, we think another, there is absolutely nothing to discuss. So-called discussions might as well be called convincing sessions. We sit down, and both sides try in futility to convince the opposite to think the same way, and it's never going to happen.

[Voltron]

Its a way out, a way to save face.
In reality it wont be for one side to try and convince the other.
It will be to see where both sides converge and subsequently come out with some type of "hybrid" agreement where both sides of the equation is taken into account.

This is already happening, now there are some Greeks that say that Macedonians are in fact not Slavs but share the same genetic markers as Greeks. See example below, its been posted a couple times before.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html

......................... 3. The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.


4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

[ProMKD]

Hybrid history, you think that is the way of the future? What happened to sticking to facts, and the truth?! Just because it doesn't please all sides, doesn't mean it has to be changed or falsified!

Your quote above states that greeks are kind of wrong, and Macedonians are kind of wrong. So... what then? We are all kind of wrong, so let's hold hands and be friends, we no longer have problems?

We are not brainwashed fifth graders!!

[Voltron]

No, that is not what I meant. I said agreement not history. Trust me, I would be the last person on earth to compromise my history. Ultimatly what I am saying is that it would be more preferable to bring you into the fold then to keep you out. But if you want to cop an attitude and try to impose your version of events to me then your're right it will never happen. Not now, not ever.

But using your example we say instead, Greeks are kind of right, and ethnic Macs are kind of right we all are kind of right lets hold hands and be friends. (See Rocky IV). Would that not be better than having this clusterfuck situation linger until you are completely islamicised as a country ? I sure think so.

[Onur]

Its a mistake for the Greek government to bet on your demise (which in all honesty it probably is) rather than being a big brother figure based on common religion and history (take that for what its worth)

Voltron, this is already the only thing Greek governments does on their behalf and they import the rest of the problems to their Euro masters. You bet on the demise of Macedonia for 21 years but you also bet for the demise of Turkish Cypriot state for more than 35 years. Hell, you even bet on Turkey`s demise because of kurdish problem and thats exactly why you support PKK.

4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

So, what you mean by that? We all should rejoice our hellenic roots and sirtaki all together?

This is just a threadbare joke, not even funny anymore.

[Risto the Great]

So, what you mean by that? We all should rejoice our hellenic roots and sirtaki all together?

The slav theory has fallen apart and now they are just calling us wayward Greeks. Tiresome stuff.

[ProMKD]

But using your example we say instead, Greeks are kind of right, and ethnic Macs are kind of right we all are kind of right lets hold hands and be friends. (See Rocky IV). Would that not be better than having this clusterfuck situation linger until you are completely islamicised as a country ? I sure think so.

no. And as for your smartass islamicizing comment, are you hinting at the fact that you would somehow 'help us' if we agreed to hold hands? I don't know what kind of dreamland you are living in buddy, but it's not the real world.

[Stojacanec]

Voltron, I am willing to discuss ancient history but before we do that...

Lets discuss what happened to Macedonia in the last 100 years. That is more than half of the region's population has been infiltrated with christians from Turkey.

[Brian]

Voltron, this is already the only thing Greek governments does on their behalf and they import the rest of the problems to their Euro masters. You bet on the demise of Macedonia for 21 years but you also bet for the demise of Turkish Cypriot state for more than 35 years. Hell, you even bet on Turkey`s demise because of kurdish problem and thats exactly why you support PKK.

Betting is a real thing Onur, the Greeks are only good at made-up stuff like lying and cheating that's why they are not good at betting.

4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

So, what you mean by that? We all should rejoice our hellenic roots and sirtaki all together?

This is just a threadbare joke, not even funny anymore.

Precisely what I was thinking Onur, a commonality of absence does not make same - a large number of different groups could have a low occurrence of R-M458 but none of them have other things in common to call them similar or same - all it's really saying is that both Greeks and Macedonians differ from Slavic communities, as in the quote eg Poles, but not that Greeks and Macedonians are truly similar so I think we wont be embracing 'our' Hellenic roots anytime soon - notice their twist in logic to claim we are the same ie the DNA facts say your not like other Slavs so to reconcile the facts we'll withdraw the greater slur that your just Slav newcomers to the Balkans and say then you must be Greek.LOL., Greeks are good at lying, but we are better lie-detectors.

Further, it blows the often said North to South Slavic migration myth to explain Macedonians existence in the Balkans, instead we are long time locals to the area - geee, maybe we are Macedonians just as we say we are.

[Voltron]

Voltron, this is already the only thing Greek governments does on their behalf and they import the rest of the problems to their Euro masters. You bet on the demise of Macedonia for 21 years but you also bet for the demise of Turkish Cypriot state for more than 35 years. Hell, you even bet on Turkey`s demise because of kurdish problem and thats exactly why you support PKK.

You make it sound like I am the head of foreign policy. PKK ? You stuck in time ? That was over 20 years ago. Please man, Turkey has an active embargo against Armenia a poor landlocked country for decades and you come off preaching to me.

So, what you mean by that? We all should rejoice our hellenic roots and sirtaki all together?

Do you look like a Turk Onur ? Or do you look like one of those Turks from soap operas. If its the latter than I dont know what your disagreeing with.

Voltron, I am willing to discuss ancient history but before we do that...

Lets discuss what happened to Macedonia in the last 100 years. That is more than half of the region's population has been infiltrated with christians from Turkey.

What is there to discuss Stojacanec. We both lost wars and we both had our indigenous populations disrupted, espescially us Greeks. At least you have a 6 figure population in Greece.
Do we in Turkey ? What is it with these questions of yours as if your oblivious to the most simplistic answers. This is like the hundredth time you asked me something so obvious.