United Macedonia Diaspora

[julie]

Julie - it seems to me that people on this forum has made up their minds and anyone that dares disagree is labelled Anti-Macedonian.
I don't necessarily disagree with what posters here are saying - the UMD and their announcements or lack of are fair game. Re-read some of the critical posts - MVB and other are referred to as "tools", "traitors", "anti-Macedonian" etc. This name calling cheapens the integrity of the forum and only fosters divisions.

Firstly, apologies for the late reply, there are some days am unable to do so for personal reasons
People on this forum may not agree with each other, but the majority of people on this forum are respectful of each others view points because we all are united for the one , our Macedonian Cause.
COULD you please point out where anyone has been labelled anti Macedonian here?
Any organisation that claims to represent the global Macedonian diaspora and then does not listen to the diaspora , and has a lack of transparency, should be open to critiscm.
I was at the Adelaide South Australia UMD visit. Your claims that it was a huge crowd are incorrect . I went in with an open mind, and said so on this forum, with the respect of my forum colleagues.
What I heard and my silenced questions which were unanswered was enough for me to make up my own mind. RTG has posted part of it for the benefit of members that could not attend .

I call a person a traitor one that will sell out my people. I am opposed to any name change or prefix as one of my parents is from RoM, the other from Egeyska Makedonia. I want the same and basic equal human rights for my people in the 4 parts of my beloved divided country.

I am against the framework agreement. RoM is silent on too many matters and the UMD is working in line of the wishes of RoM alone, not the diaspora which are larger in numbers than the inhabitants there.

You would be wise to read the posts.
As for ant-semitism, I give a shit for the US supported Israeli Jews as much as they give a shit for my Macedonian people.
I am not anti anything. I am a firm beleiver in human rights and I dislike the suffering of innocent children anywhere in the world, be they white, black, purple or green.

I joined this forum and did not bother with the other one , am a big girl now and I am at a place where the majority of my forum colleagues are united in the one Macedonian cause. We differ in a lot of things, but are respectful, its when newcomers to this forum eschew garbage that gets my back up.
MVB would be wise to also think before he posts, a bit like think before you speak

Happy to clarify anything you have not understood

[mvb9999]

Answer the question mvb9999.

Am I extreme because I don't support the UMD?

Am I extreme for deleting an irrelevant one-liner rant and advising you to post future information about the UMD on the UMD dedicated thread?

One the one hand UMD apologists complain about the number of threads relating to the UMD, and on the other, they complain when these additional (and in your case useless) threads are deleted. Is integrity such a rare virtue among you people?

This is what I mean, SoM, you're just a trash talker and it doesn't impress me. My post wasn't a one-liner, you know it.

[Piperka]

Very interesting comments by all. This forum is great practice for anyone interested in flexing their debating skills.

Here are my 2 cents...

I'm not from Australia nor do I think I've met any of the individuals on this forum, yet I share some of their thoughts on the UMD. Many other people I know feel the same way. They just don't post on forums.

I, along with my network of acquaintances, friends, and family, are actively involved in the Macedonian-American community. We are involved and active in all spheres of Macedonian life in our local communities and have a strong connection to Macedonia. Out of my network of thousands of people, I only know of one person that is a member of the UMD. I live in the country where the UMD is headquartered and I'm very involved in the community and yet I only know of one member.

The UMD board members are all pretty much brand new faces and names to me. If I don't know them, then they are definitely strangers to my friends and family.

Who are they? Where did they come from? Why were they never involved before? Why weren't those Macedonians in the US who were active in and in touch with the Macedonian communities given a spot on the board? Even though the board wasn't democratically elected, there still could have been some sort of planned approach to making sure the board was representing the community — especially during the beginning stages. Isn't that the point of the organization? To unite the Macedonian diaspora? Besides Meto, it seems like everyone from the US on the UMD's board is a new immigrant who has never lived in (or been an active member of) a heavily populated Macedonian-American city or is/was from the MPO.

How is the UMD going to "foster unity among Macedonian people, and advance their cause" when they are disconnected from the majority of Macedonians that are active in the community?

In the end, everyone should keep on doing what they can for Macedonia - including the UMD. Just don't speak on my behalf to the government or world.

[Risto the Great]

Ok, I can easily respect that, RTG. I suppose if he's a "strong proponent" of the term, he's been quoted as using it or promoting it elsewhere as well?

In any case, if we're talking about the same Kostoff, and I think we are, I can say I met the guy at the Toronto conference, and I found him to be a smart, friendly bloke with a lot of passion for Macedonia, and I liked him immediately. However, I don't like the term Slav Macedonian.

That being said, I'm not going to crucify him for allegedly using it in absentia. Same goes for people who used to be MPO, or people who are ferociously anti-this or pro-that. I'm sort of sick of all of these Macedonian litmus tests that have cropped up recently - it seems you have to talk and walk a particular way, or someone is all too ready to disown you completely from the Macedonian family, like we have lots of extra people hanging around, and we are in a position to disown them.

He's not a member of MTO is he? If not, too bad. It would be nice to hear it from the horse's mouth, and discuss it further.

Steve is a nice guy and a distant cousin to boot. That does not mean he or anybody else and their actions cannot be questioned. He also felt my line of questioning was not necessary when the UMD came to my home town. I can assure you I was being respectful and am positive that thoughtful Macedonians would have been very eager to have allowed my line of query to reach its logical conclusion. Perhaps you may have seen the Youtube footage where Meto was justifying his thought process about "Democratic Macedonia".

Steve is a member of this forum but I hear he has relegated these "internet things" as very unimportant. I used to think that, but the influence the MTO has is very hard to ignore.

The walking and talking part is quite interesting. You indeed have to walk and talk the Macedonian Cause over here. Because if you don't, we cannot be sure of your intentions. The UMD has never confirmed it can walk the walk or talk the talk. It does do a lot of talking though.

Your mate Amitrevski faded away after I gave him some written advice about how the UMD should respond to the absurd demands from the EU Parliament. He kept going on about how we are apparently all talk and that we should actually tell him what to write since we knew better than the UMD. Well, I did write one. I note the UMD did not adopt the letter in any public fashion. You seem super-pro EU. Are you pro EU parliament demands? If you have not seen them, try searching this forum.

p.s. If I ever give you a nudge and quietly tell you we are planning to take over Solun next week, will you trust me as a Macedonian more? Or will you just rely on every public written or announced word from an organisation instead?

[Risto the Great]

Very interesting comments by all. This forum is great practice for anyone interested in flexing their debating skills.

Here are my 2 cents...

I'm not from Australia nor do I think I've met any of the individuals on this forum, yet I share some of their thoughts on the UMD. Many other people I know feel the same way. They just don't post on forums.

I, along with my network of acquaintances, friends, and family, are actively involved in the Macedonian-American community. We are involved and active in all spheres of Macedonian life in our local communities and have a strong connection to Macedonia. Out of my network of thousands of people, I only know of one person that is a member of the UMD. I live in the country where the UMD is headquartered and I'm very involved in the community and yet I only know of one member.

The UMD board members are all pretty much brand new faces and names to me. If I don't know them, then they are definitely strangers to my friends and family.

Who are they? Where did they come from? Why were they never involved before? Why weren't those Macedonians in the US who were active in and in touch with the Macedonian communities given a spot on the board? Even though the board wasn't democratically elected, there still could have been some sort of planned approach to making sure the board was representing the community — especially during the beginning stages. Isn't that the point of the organization? To unite the Macedonian diaspora? Besides Meto, it seems like everyone from the US on the UMD's board is a new immigrant who has never lived in (or been an active member of) a heavily populated Macedonian-American city or is/was from the MPO.

How is the UMD going to "foster unity among Macedonian people, and advance their cause" when they are disconnected from the majority of Macedonians that are active in the community?

In the end, everyone should keep on doing what they can for Macedonia - including the UMD. Just don't speak on my behalf to the government or world.

Thanks Piperka, I am sure I have sharpened up my "fighting words" thanks to places like this.

I think the UMD have purposely tried to make this an Australia vs USA thing. Which is absurd. The UMD purport to represent the Macedonian Diaspora worldwide (as evidenced by their very recent announcements). This is clearly not true and you are very much yet another confirmation of this fact.

In the end, everyone should keep on doing what they can for Macedonia - including the UMD. Just don't speak on my behalf to the government or world.

I agree. The "for" part can only be aligned with the Macedonian Cause.

pozdrav

[Vangelovski]

MVB,

You still haven't pointed out what exactly you consider to be extreme about SoM?

[mvb9999]

SoM,

Its become apparant over the years that anyone who doesn't support the vassal policies instituted by Gligorov, Crvenkovski, Frckovski et al during the early 90's, and their by-products such as the Interim Accord, is an "extremist" according to UMD and its cheerleaders.

When Macedonian activists were calling for independence they were labelled as "extremists". When they spoke out against the Interim Accord, they were "extremists". When they spoke out against the Framework Agreement, they were "extremists". Now when they point out UMD's ideological flaws, again they are "extremists".

As usual, taking words out of context and putting words in other people's mouths...

Believe it or not, Mr. V, I think I understand your concerns about the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement... both documents are problematic in different ways.

Ok, let's say Macedonia does exactly what you propose, cancel any pretensions to cooperate with any aspect of either agreement. Before stepping away from either accord, don't you think Macedonia should probably grow its economy and military in a significant way first? I remember those days clearly, and I don't think the Republic handled the Greek embargo very well at all. Macedonia could use solid access to a port, or some significant source of energy (nuclear?). I also think the army proved to be ill-equipped to deal with the UCK in 2001, they will have to be more ready next time. More soldiers, more weapons, more helicopters, the whole nine yards. I also think that, if that is the road we take, we need a heavy duty ally or three, willing to sign a mutual protection pact with us, not unlike what NATO countries share with each other... something to send the message "hand off". If that's not possible, then Macedonia's efforts to arm itself will have to be increased further.

One thing I think you and I can agree on is that there is an indignity / unfairness to each document. But where I think we differ is the next question. Honestly, I don't spend a lot of time pondering "Is this fair?" or "Is this just?"... maybe I'm just a cynical person. I don't have high expectations for justice in this world. I'm much more preoccupied with a question like: "How do we improve Macedonia's security, economy and future?"

Thoughts?

[Vangelovski]

Lets try and tackle one thing at a time:

What exactly do you consider to be extreme about SoM?

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is what I mean, SoM, you're just a trash talker and it doesn't impress me. My post wasn't a one-liner, you know it.

First I am an extremist, then I am a trash talker, meanwhile, the fact remains that your first post (rant) was a one-liner. If it was anything else, you would have substantiated it by now. Have a look at what you've done since returning after your one-liner, you haven't made a single effort to re-cap this phantom 'post' of yours, because there is nothing to re-cap. Move on from it, and add a bit of substance to your posts.

[Prolet]

Very interesting comments by all. This forum is great practice for anyone interested in flexing their debating skills.

Here are my 2 cents...

I'm not from Australia nor do I think I've met any of the individuals on this forum, yet I share some of their thoughts on the UMD. Many other people I know feel the same way. They just don't post on forums.

I, along with my network of acquaintances, friends, and family, are actively involved in the Macedonian-American community. We are involved and active in all spheres of Macedonian life in our local communities and have a strong connection to Macedonia. Out of my network of thousands of people, I only know of one person that is a member of the UMD. I live in the country where the UMD is headquartered and I'm very involved in the community and yet I only know of one member.

The UMD board members are all pretty much brand new faces and names to me. If I don't know them, then they are definitely strangers to my friends and family.

Who are they? Where did they come from? Why were they never involved before? Why weren't those Macedonians in the US who were active in and in touch with the Macedonian communities given a spot on the board? Even though the board wasn't democratically elected, there still could have been some sort of planned approach to making sure the board was representing the community — especially during the beginning stages. Isn't that the point of the organization? To unite the Macedonian diaspora? Besides Meto, it seems like everyone from the US on the UMD's board is a new immigrant who has never lived in (or been an active member of) a heavily populated Macedonian-American city or is/was from the MPO.

How is the UMD going to "foster unity among Macedonian people, and advance their cause" when they are disconnected from the majority of Macedonians that are active in the community?

In the end, everyone should keep on doing what they can for Macedonia - including the UMD. Just don't speak on my behalf to the government or world.

Piperka, Thats probably the longest ever post you've written, you are not so lazy afterall.

Its great that you are contributing on this forum especially because you come from USA you can give us more details about the Macedonians there.

This is finally starting to look like a proper discussion, i just hope we dont insult eachother and make this a proper debate where we can all come to a conclusion.

Well Done People

[mvb9999]

Steve is a nice guy and a distant cousin to boot. That does not mean he or anybody else and their actions cannot be questioned.

Ok, agreed. Question it, and I'm sorry to hear that he was not letting you finish your question, et al. But, I just don't think he's automatically a dushman because of these sorts of things (not implying that's what you were saying, I'm mean that in a general way.)

The walking and talking part is quite interesting. You indeed have to walk and talk the Macedonian Cause over here. Because if you don't, we cannot be sure of your intentions. The UMD has never confirmed it can walk the walk or talk the talk. It does do a lot of talking though.

Yes, trust is a key issue; it's hard to establish and easy to lose. To be honest, I have had my own trust questions about other Macedonian groups as well.

Let me ask you a question RTG: Other than the fact that you presumably disagree with UMD's pro-EU/NATO stance (correct me if I'm wrong), do you feel betrayed by the UMD? Do you feel that UMD lead you to believe A, and then obviously did B, therefore leading you to not trust them?

Or is it something less black and white than that... not a particular incident or two, but more like a general impression based on a lot of smaller things?

Your mate Amitrevski faded away after I gave him some written advice about how the UMD should respond to the absurd demands from the EU Parliament. He kept going on about how we are apparently all talk and that we should actually tell him what to write since we knew better than the UMD. Well, I did write one. I note the UMD did not adopt the letter in any public fashion. You seem super-pro EU. Are you pro EU parliament demands? If you have not seen them, try searching this forum.

If you still have the letter, I would love to see it.

My feeling on the EU is that it is essentially a country club, and that only members have any sort of pull. I feel that the EU's pro-Greek stance on Macedonia vs. Greece bilateral issues is very soft and paper thin, and that a lot of Greece's "friends" are simply taking the path of least resistance by siding with Greece by default, or perhaps put differently, they are not yet pissed off enough with Greece's demands to actually change the EU rules about vetoes on new membership. I also think Macedonia should keep the denar.

One thing that I feel needs to be a priority for the Diaspora is human rights in Egej, Pirin, Mala Prespa... I am very tempted by the dream that one day, the Treaty of Bucharest borders will become irrelevant, that people, trade, ideas will travel freely from Lerin to Bitola to Gorna Dzumaja and back again. Is this just a dream? I don't know... maybe. But I think that an actual reunification of Macedonia is ... well, even more of a dream. So, I would take second best, if means that the Egejci and Pirinci get their rights and a chance to survive long term.

I sort of equate the situation with Quebec here in Canada. The Quebecois have their province, where they are the majority and have become more and more independent. They are currently still a part of Canada, but they have many sovereign rights, most of which they acquired in the last 30 years. And yet, as Quebec got more power, the Franco-Ontariens, the Acadie, the Fracophones of Saskatchewan started to fade away dramatically. Now, these communities are a shadow of their former selves, and that is in a free country like Canada. If Quebec separated, those communities would be toast.

In Macedonia, its a reverse situation... there has been separation for a century, with a small community hanging on, and a faint hope of reunification. I see the Republic as not being aggressive enough on the issue of the Egejci in particular... I remember once in Skopje I heard someone in a kafic say "ah tie se zagubeni veke..." And this is such a stupid attitude. I don't know that the EU membership is a fully possible option, because I don't support any compromise on the name. But I feel that, if EU membership is possible, the by God let's give it a try, if for no one's sake than for the Egejci.

p.s. If I ever give you a nudge and quietly tell you we are planning to take over Solun next week, will you trust me as a Macedonian more? Or will you just rely on every public written or announced word from an organisation instead?

Trust is a gift... I don't have any reason not to trust you. But I'd like to hear your battle plans for taking over Solun... I think I'll take out some life insurance first and find the biggest helmet I can find

[mvb9999]

Lets try and tackle one thing at a time:

What exactly do you consider to be extreme about SoM?

I already told you Mr. V, I thought his tone was abusive and I thought the deletion was a cheap trick... that's all. He justified it by saying that it wasn't placed in the proper place, but I don't buy that. Go ahead and take offense if you must... it is duly noted.

Now, I have confronted you with some comments about your favorite topics - the Interim Accord and the Ohrid Agreement. Do you want to pursue that, or do you want to go in circles on a non-issue? Your choice.

[mvb9999]

First I am an extremist, then I am a trash talker, meanwhile, the fact remains that your first post (rant) was a one-liner. If it was anything else, you would have substantiated it by now. Have a look at what you've done since returning after your one-liner, you haven't made a single effort to re-cap this phantom 'post' of yours, because there is nothing to re-cap. Move on from it, and add a bit of substance to your posts.

I didn't keep a copy of it, and no, I'm not going to re-write it for you, so you can delete it again! SoM, I don't think I'm going to spend a lot of time on you, in particular, because I don't see the benefit. You go ahead twist that around any way you like, I really don't care. As for your suggestion, "move on"... that's a good one, I like it.

[Vangelovski]

I already told you Mr. V, I thought his tone was abusive and I thought the deletion was a cheap trick... that's all. He justified it by saying that it wasn't placed in the proper place, but I don't buy that. Go ahead and take offense if you must... it is duly noted.

Now, I have confronted you with some comments about your favorite topics - the Interim Accord and the Ohrid Agreement. Do you want to pursue that, or do you want to go in circles on a non-issue? Your choice.

An "abusive" tone and the deletion of a thread = "extremism".

I'm glad we finally have an answer - I guess it shows how thick UMD's skin is...and they want to "represent" the diaspora!?!?

I think you might find that most people have a very different understanding of "extremism".

As for the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, they are not "problematic". They are an existential attack on our sovereignty, identity and human rights. This is something UMD has failed to understand, treating them as a “reality” we have to “accept” and a framework or box in which to think.

Your scaremongering that declaring them 'null and void' and reversing their consequences would automatically lead to a general apocalypse is about 20 years late. That is the kind of argument that was put up by Gligorov, Crvenkovski, Frckovski and Maleski to justify them in the first place.

I think you'll find that an assertive policy is much more likely to achieve national freedom that vassal policies.

[Risto the Great]

I got a glimpse of that 1 deleted post made by you MVB.
It was not breathtaking and you are making much more of it than it was. If we had known it was a UMD executive member's post, we might have had a real red hot go at it. But we just figured it was Meto or a mate of his posting some pro UMD dribble.