Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Pelister]

The point that I would like to emphasize is that the negotiations are exposing us.

We are more vulnerable to destruction, and more vulnerable to open attacks on our identity, by putting our identity on the negotiating table. The 'process' itself has the more sinister aspect of tiring Macedonians to the point where they simply call for a name change. And as Gruevski has said the final outcome to this negotiation process will be a referendum. This is a simple way of saying our political extinction, may come down to a vote. Either way - the negotiations expose us to anyone and everyone who wishes to see us anhialated and this may well be a Macedonian.

[makedonche]

The point that I would like to emphasize is that the negotiations are exposing us.

We are more vulnerable to destruction, and more vulnerable to open attacks on our identity, by putting our identity on the negotiating table. The 'process' itself has the more sinister aspect of tiring Macedonians to the point where they simply call for a name change. And as Gruevski has said the final outcome to this negotiation process will be a referendum. This is a simple way of saying our political extinction, may come down to a vote. Either way - the negotiations expose us to anyone and everyone who wishes to see us anhialated and this may well be a Macedonian.

Pelister
Part quote:"......tiring Macedonians to the point where they simply call for a name change."

I picked up on this comment straight away and have had similar thoughts, whilst trying to rationalise an irrational process of negotiating a self determined name! This IMO should ring some alarm bells, that when the Macedonian people in ROM are good and tired of negotiations and can't be bothered with them any longer, in their anxious desire to be saved financially and lead plentiful lives as part of the EU, will be asked by referendum to change the name!

[Vangelovski]

Many here seem to believe that should it come to a referendum, residents of RoM should not be trusted with the preservation of our name.

You're applying some creative reinterpretation here...as usual.

Buktop,

Now that you have had time to twist yourself into a knot, I want to make the following comment. Its not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of authority (I think that’s the word I’m looking for). A referendum on our name is basically asking the people to vote on their human rights. As you (should) know, human rights are unalienable. We have these rights by virtue of being human. This means that no referendum, no majority, no government, nothing, not even the people themselves have the authority to vote on whether they should negate their own human rights or not. They are unalienable (look that up).

[Bratot]

Bratot, may I ask you, after DPMNE took control and SDS stepped down, do you notice a difference in any policies? Would you say that DPMNE and SDS have the same goal in mind when concerning the name?

Yes.

Do you need more prove?

Check the statements before the Bucurest summit 2008, they both agreed on the policy concerning the name.

Gruevski walked in with a clear acceptation of the name R. of Macedonia (Skopje) in order to enter NATO.

What you need is reality check and depolitization of your thinking.

[Buktop]

Buktop, although it's my personal belief that it's unlikely that any Macedonian man or organization will temp fate by accepting and enforcing a name change on the Macedonian people and their homeland it is not beyond the realms of possibility that such traitors exist and it is this element of doubt that should motivate all of us to be vigilant and prepared to fight in defence of this possibility

I completely agree, and as I have admitted previously, I do not deny that there is a possibility of a name change, but I think the probability of it actually occurring is slim.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

Now that you have had time to twist yourself into a knot, I want to make the following comment. Its not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of authority (I think that’s the word I’m looking for). A referendum on our name is basically asking the people to vote on their human rights. As you (should) know, human rights are unalienable. We have these rights by virtue of being human. This means that no referendum, no majority, no government, nothing, not even the people themselves have the authority to vote on whether they should negate their own human rights or not. They are unalienable (look that up).

Vangelovski, I know what you are saying, especially since we have had this exact conversation more times than I can remember...

As you quoted, I stated "Many here seem to believe that should it come to a referendum, residents of RoM should not be trusted with the preservation of our name."

Now the statement wasn't in reference to our inalienable rights, but the fact that many here are afraid that the Macedonian people, if put to a referendum, wouldn't be capable of defending their name, and would most likely result in a name change. This comment was directed more towards the lack of faith in the citizens rather than their inalienable rights.

In post #229 of this thread I posted

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3816 Post #6

This very thread you said in post #219
"The citizens are deeply brainwashed about becoming part of EU and they are capable of selfdeciet with changing the name in order to enter.

I don't like gambling with things that don't belong only to me and I don't want any idiot to gamble on behalf of me."



This very thread Pelister stated in post #195 "Why would anyone want to put the question of political existence to a vote ? Don't you see a danger in this ?"

Like I have said, "should" it come down to a referendum, as the government has indicated, I think the people should be well prepared to reaffirm their inalienable rights.

[Buktop]

Yes.

Do you need more prove?

Check the statements before the Bucurest summit 2008, they both agreed on the policy concerning the name.

Gruevski walked in with a clear acceptation of the name R. of Macedonia (Skopje) in order to enter NATO.

What you need is reality check and depolitization of your thinking.

My statements are neither for nor against either political party, and I wish you would stop labeling them as propaganda, political agitation, and politicizing the issues, because that is not what we are discussing here.

My question to you was do you notice anything different between the two parties (DPMNE and SDS) in regards to their policy on the name issue. Apparently, you despise both in regards to their name policies, whereas I am looking at them on a broader scale.

[Bratot]

Well... you are defending a political party in very fanatical manner, you are trying hard not to admit what is pure fact and hustle yourself into delussional intepretations.

You asking for a difference in the nuances, because they are same in the essence.

The only difference if you wish to name it as such, is the "patriotic" burden of the image that VMRO have locked for itself, but they don't differ in anything else from their rivals in SDSM.

The game is played on how to sell the name but staying on rule, the only solution of this political riddle is: cowardly pass the decission on the citizens and make them believe they are to decide something.
It's a pure nonsense, to have the self proclaimed patriotic party asking the citizens whether they prefer to protect or injure their own identity.

What VMRO is offering is a gun to commit a suicide. Because they lack the balls for killing despite the SDSM.

What VMRO should have done is to disarm the posibility of changing the name.

[indigen]

Buktop, I disagree with your above assertion.

Countries have changed their names throughout the last 50 years or so, adding
prefixes, suffixes or even entire official name changes.

Here are some examples:

Burkina Faso: Name was changed from Upper Volta on 6 August 1984
Natioanlity
Upper Volta = Upper Voltian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yam%C3%A9ogo

Nationality:
Burkina Faso:
noun: Burkinabe (singular and plural)
adjective: Burkinabe

Ethnic groups:
Mossi over 40%, other approximately 60% (includes Gurunsi, Senufo, Lobi, Bobo,
Mande, and Fulani)
Religions:
Muslim 50%, indigenous beliefs 40%, Christian (mainly Roman Catholic) 10%
Languages:
French (official), native African languages belonging to Sudanic family spoken
by 90% of the population

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uv.html

Cambodia: Name was changed to the Khmer Republic on 7 October 1970, and back to
Cambodia on 30 April 1975. Name was changed again to Democratic Kampuchea on 6
April 1976, and back to Cambodia on 3 February 1990.

Nationality
Cambodia=Cambodian
Kampuchea=Kampuchean


Congo: Previously referred to as Congo (Brazzaville) (to differentiate it from
Congo (Leopoldville)) and the People's Republic of the Congo. Name was changed
to Congo on 15 November 1971 (after the Democratic Republic of the Congo changed
its name to Zaire). Also referred to as Congo (Republic of the)

Country name:
conventional long form: Republic of the Congo
conventional short form: Congo (Brazzaville)

local long form: Republique du Congo
local short form: none

former: Middle Congo, Congo/Brazzaville, Congo

Government type:republic

Capital:name: Brazzaville

Nationality:
noun: Congolese (singular and plural)
adjective: Congolese or Congo

Ethnic groups:Kongo 48%, Sangha 20%, M'Bochi 12%, Teke 17%, Europeans and other
3%

Religions:Christian 50%, animist 48%, Muslim 2%
Languages: French (official), Lingala and Monokutuba (lingua franca trade
languages), many local languages and dialects (of which Kikongo is the most
widespread)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cf.html

Côte d'Ivoire: Previously referred to as Ivory Coast. On 6 November 1985, Côte
d’lvoire requested that its name no longer be translated into different
languages; this became fully effective on 1 January 1986

Country name:
conventional long form: Republic of Cote d'Ivoire
conventional short form: Cote d'Ivoire
local long form: Republique de Cote d'Ivoire
local short form: Cote d'Ivoire
note: pronounced coat-div-whar
former: Ivory Coast

Independence:7 August 1960 (from France)
National holiday:Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
Independence Day, 7 August (1960)
Constitution:Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
approved by referendum 23 July 2000

Nationality:
noun: Ivoirian(s)
adjective: Ivoirian

Ethnic groups: Akan 42.1%, Voltaiques or Gur 17.6%, Northern Mandes 16.5%, Krous
11%, Southern Mandes 10%, other 2.8% (includes 130,000 Lebanese and 14,000
French) (1998)

Religions: Muslim 38.6%, Christian 32.8%, indigenous 11.9%, none 16.7% (2008
est.)
note: the majority of foreigners (migratory workers) are Muslim (70%) and
Christian (20%)

Languages:French (official), 60 native dialects with Dioula the most widely
spoken

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iv.html

Democratic Republic of the Congo: Previously referred to as Congo (Leopoldville)
(to differentiate it from Congo (Brazzaville)). Name was changed from the
Democratic Republic of the Congo to Zaire on 27 October 1971, and back to the
Democratic Republic of the Congo on 17 May 1997

Country name:
conventional long form: Democratic Republic of the Congo
conventional short form: DRC
local long form: Republique Democratique du Congo
local short form: RDC
former: Congo Free State, Belgian Congo, Congo/Leopoldville, Congo/Kinshasa,
Zaire
abbreviation: DRC

Nationality: noun: Congolese (singular and plural)
adjective: Congolese or Congo
Independence: 30 June 1960 (from Belgium)
National holiday: Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
Independence Day, 30 June (1960)
Constitution: 18 February 2006

Ethnic groups: over 200 African ethnic groups of which the majority are Bantu;
the four largest tribes - Mongo, Luba, Kongo (all Bantu), and the
Mangbetu-Azande (Hamitic) make up about 45% of the population

Religions:Roman Catholic 50%, Protestant 20%, Kimbanguist 10%, Muslim 10%, other
(includes syncretic sects and indigenous beliefs) 10%

Languages:French (official), Lingala (a lingua franca trade language), Kingwana
(a dialect of Kiswahili or Swahili), Kikongo, Tshiluba

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cg.html

Zairean Za·ir'e·an or Za·ir'i·an adj. & n.

http://www.answers.com/topic/zaire

Noun 1.ZaireanZairean - a native or inhabitant of Zaire
Adj.1. Zairean - of or relating to or characteristic of Zaire or its people;
"Zairean elections"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Zairean

Iran (Islamic Republic of): Previously referred to as Iran. By a communication
of 5 March 1981, Iran informed the Secretary-General that it should be referred
to by its complete name of the Islamic Republic of Iran.


Lao People's Democratic Republic: Name was changed from Laos on 2 December 1975.
Nationality:
noun: Lao(s) or Laotian(s)
adjective: Lao or Laotian

Country name:
conventional long form: Lao People's Democratic Republic
conventional short form: Laos
local long form: Sathalanalat Paxathipatai Paxaxon Lao
local short form: Pathet Lao (unofficial)

Flag description:
three horizontal bands of red (top), blue (double width), and red with a large
white disk centered in the blue band; the red bands recall the blood shed for
liberation; the blue band represents the Mekong River and prosperity; the white
disk symbolizes the full moon against the Mekong River, but also signifies the
unity of the people under the Pathet Lao, as well as the country's bright future

Independence:19 July 1949 (from France)
National holiday:Republic Day, 2 December (1975)

Constitution: promulgated 14 August 1991; amended in 2003

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/la.html

Madagascar: Previously referred to as the Malagasy Republic.
Country name:
conventional long form: Republic of Madagascar
conventional short form: Madagascar
local long form: Republique de Madagascar/Repoblikan'i Madagasikara
local short form: Madagascar/Madagasikara
former: Malagasy Republic

Government type:
republic

Nationality:
noun: Malagasy (singular and plural)
adjective: Malagasy

Ethnic groups:Malayo-Indonesian (Merina and related Betsileo), Cotiers (mixed
African, Malayo-Indonesian, and Arab ancestry - Betsimisaraka, Tsimihety,
Antaisaka, Sakalava), French, Indian, Creole, Comoran

Religions: indigenous beliefs 52%, Christian 41%, Muslim 7%

Languages: English (official), French (official), Malagasy (official)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ma.html

Myanmar: Name was changed from Burma on 18 June 1989
Country name:
conventional long form: Union of Burma
conventional short form: Burma
local long form: Pyidaungzu Myanma Naingngandaw (translated by the US Government
as Union of Myanma and by the Burmese as Union of Myanmar)
local short form: Myanma Naingngandaw
former: Socialist Republic of the Union of Burma
note: since 1989 the military authorities in Burma have promoted the name
Myanmar as a conventional name for their state; the US Government did not adopt
the name, which is a derivative of the Burmese short-form name Myanma
Naingngandaw

Independence: 4 January 1948 (from the UK)

National holiday: Independence Day, 4 January (1948); Union Day, 12 February
(1947)

Constitution: 3 January 1974; suspended since 18 September 1988; a constitution
officially received 92.48% support in a flawed May 2008 referendum that most
observers judged fell far short of international standards of free and fair
elections; note - a new constitution is to take effect when a parliament is
convened following elections planned for 2010

Nationality: noun: Burmese (singular and plural)
adjective: Burmese
Ethnic groups: Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
Burman 68%, Shan 9%, Karen 7%, Rakhine 4%, Chinese 3%, Indian 2%, Mon 2%, other
5%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bm.html

Republic of Moldova: Previously referred to as Moldova
Nationality
Moldovans

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=Moldovans&gwp=13

Nationality:
noun: Moldovan(s)
adjective: Moldovan
Ethnic groups:

Moldovan/Romanian 78.2%, Ukrainian 8.4%, Russian 5.8%, Gagauz 4.4%, Bulgarian
1.9%, other 1.3% (2004 census)
note: internal disputes with ethnic Slavs in the Transnistrian region
Religions:Eastern Orthodox 98%, Jewish 1.5%, Baptist and other 0.5% (2000)
Languages:
Moldovan (official, virtually the same as the Romanian language), Russian,
Gagauz (a Turkish dialect)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/md.html

Sri Lanka: Name was changed from Ceylon on 22 May 1972
nationality
Sri Lanka=Sri Lankan
Cylon=Cylonese


Thailand: Previously referred to as Siam
Natioanlity
Thailand=Thai

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=thai&gwp=13

Siam=Siamese

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=siamese&gwp=13

Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of): Previously referred to as Venezuela
Country name:
conventional long form: Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
conventional short form: Venezuela
local long form: Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela
local short form: Venezuela

Nationality:
noun: Venezuelan(s)
adjective: Venezuelan

Ethnic groups: Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Arab, German, African, indigenous
people
Religions: nominally Roman Catholic 96%, Protestant 2%, other 2%
Languages: Spanish (official), numerous indigenous dialects

Government
type:federal republic

Capital:
name: Caracas

Independence:5 July 1811 (from Spain)
National holiday:Independence Day, 5 July (1811)
Constitution:30 December 1999

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ve.html

I am not sure if you can argue that all, if any, of the name changes listed
above, and indeed all the others that I did not list, resulted in a change in,
or affected, the national identity of those states?

Therefore I do not think you should be as confident as you are in your own
assessment that the current Government will not change the name, despite
continually talking about compromise and mutually accepted solutions, by
dismissing that as an oxymoron because they say they do not want the 'solution'
to 'affect national identity'.

Rogi, I have highlighted in red my extra info regarding how in many cases where the state name (not the political adjective or "constitutional reference" such as Republic, Democratic, Bolivarian, and etc., which has no effect) changes, e.g. Cylon to Sri Lanka, the name of the nationality changes.

[Buktop]

Indigen, I already did this in post #248, great minds think alike I guess.

National Identity (aside from national politics) remain unchanged. Though as has been cited, those name changes were inspired by internal revolutionary forces, not by external political pressure. In any case, the examples provided are not representative of the situation in question, and therefor, are not valid for comparison.

[Bratot]

The Greeks copying MHRMI&AMHRC campaign:

[Risto the Great]

Kid's stuff with little significance. I note they are yet to have an original thought.

[Bratot]

Ristaki take a look at the "Tito argument", that still works for them?

[indigen]

Buktop, although it's my personal belief that it's unlikely that any Macedonian man or organization will temp fate by accepting and enforcing a name change on the Macedonian people and their homeland it is not beyond the realms of possibility that such traitors exist and it is this element of doubt that should motivate all of us to be vigilant and prepared to fight in defence of this possibility

Firstly, they exist and are openly campaigning for it.

Secondly, one could say they have already renamed Macedonia (for international use) and have signed away Macedonian sovereignty on more than one occasion, the "Ramkoven dogovor" (aka OFA) being a deed that, IMO, equates to the extinguishing of the Macedonian national state.

Lastly, we have had openly anti-Macedonians elected to government and leading positions in it, e.g. LjuBcho Georgievski and his "GOLEMATA BUGAROFILSKA (BUGAROMANSKA) TAJFA", and I would not be surprised if a "referendum" is organised and "passed" via manipulations, disorganisation and the combined vote of non-Macedonians and the odrodi/sellouts.

[indigen]

The Greeks copying MHRMI&AMHRC campaign:

If they had power to block, I would salute them but I expect that their campaign will be used by HellAss to stitch a deal that they could claim was against "strong nationalist opposition"! In other words I see ( and suspect) that it is a diversion and a cover for a renaming exercise of Macedonia!!!