Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, If you look at it that way the Nish Accord has nothing to do with the Church Dispute in Australia so why bring it up then?? Why not open up another topic on it and discuss it there??

Are you serious? Let's see what other people here think about being part of an Orthodox Church that does not carry the Macedonian national identity and is under jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarch? Let's see what they think of an Accord that legitimizes Serbian claims that the independent Macedonian Orthodox Church was illegitimately formed by communists. Let's see what other people think about Macedonian community properties in Australia being put in the uncontrolled hands of a Bishop who has a proven track-record of trying to abolish the national identity and independence of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and place it under Serbian jurisdiction? The same Bishop who brought Zoran Vraniskovski into the MOC as a Bishop, after Vraniskovski had previously stated IN A BOOK PUBLISHED BY PETAR'S BITOLA DIOCESE that "perhaps our sister churches are right when they say that the MOC was artificially created by the communists"?

I don't mind a bit of rakija myself, Prolet, but don't let your brain soak it up like a sponge.

[aleksandrov]

Makedonche, Its not off topic at all, this priest serves the Macedonian people in the Roseberry church in Sydney. Its no different to being a lawyer or a doctor and working without a license. You cant drive a car with a suspended license.

If he is an ordinary citizen he wouldnt be serving the people in church then would he?

Where are you getting your information from, Prolet? If I was Aleksovski, I would demand an apology or sue you for defamation.

Working as a lawyer or a doctor without a license would amount to fraud, which is a criminal offense. If Aleksovski is working as a priest without proper qualifications or lawful authority, why don't you and your Informator friend report him for fraud?

Aleksovski still enjoys canonical acceptance from the Antiochian Orthodox Church. Not long ago, a Russian Orthodox Archimandrite (next highest title after bishop) joined him in performing a marriage ceremony at Rosebery. Are these high-ranking Orthodox clerics frauds, Prolet? Where does Petar get his authority to excommunicate or defrock people from the Orthodox religion or from Macedonian Orthodox churches that do not accept his jurisdiction? Why have you never raised any question about Petar's own defrocking, signed by former Archbishop Gavril, which Petar has willfully defied?

[aleksandrov]

See why cant we have a civil discussion without threats and insults?

You tell us.

SOM, Bishop Petar is not allowed to to sell or transfer any assets to another party,..

Are you insulting the intelligence of the readers of this thread?

Have you read the Bill yet or are you just regurgitating charshiski muabeti?

Let me try helping you again, just in case you are as ignorant as you make yourself out to be:

7
Functions of Trust

(1)The functions of the Trust are as follows:

(a)to purchase, exchange, take on lease, hold, dispose of andotherwise deal with property as trustee for, or for the purposes of,the Church,
(b)to acquire property by gift, devise or bequest and to agree to and carry out the conditions of the gift, devise or bequest,
(c)to borrow or lend money for the purposes of the Church,
(d)to mortgage, charge or otherwise encumber trust property,
(e)to make gifts and donations of property held by it for religious and charitable purposes,
(f)to enter into any guarantee or indemnity that may assist the Trust or the Church in the exercise of its functions,
(g)to do and suffer all other things (whether or not of the kind referred to in this section) that the Metropolitan considers to be necessary, appropriate or desirable,
(h)to do and suffer all other things that bodies corporate may, by law, do and suffer and that are necessary for or incidental to the exercise of its functions under this Act.


3 Arrangements for other churches to use trust property
(1) In this section, scheme of co-operation means a scheme entered into by the Trust:
(a) with or involving a church of another denomination or any congregation or activity of such a church, and
(b) concerning the use of trust property.
(2) The Trust may permit trust property to be used and managed for the purposes of a scheme of co-operation on such terms and conditions as the Trust determines."

14 Trusts may be varied

(1) The Trust may by resolution declare that, in its opinion, it has become impossible or inexpedient to carry out or observe the terms of a trust of property vested in it, whether as to its purpose or any other of its terms.
(2) The Trust may, by the same or a later resolution, declare that the property is subject to another trust and, on the making of such a declaration:
(a) the trust that is to be replaced ceases, and
(b) the property is to be held subject to the other trust.

What are these provisions for if not to empower Petar to fulfill his long-standing objective of abolishing the ethnic identity of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and placing it under the jurisdiction of a non-Macedonian (i.e. Serbian) church? For those unfamiliar with Petar's record in this regard, I recommend this thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2030

[Risto the Great]

Prolet, clearly he can transfer property under that Bill.
Do you feel any differently about him now?
Further, I think Petar's relationship to the Nish accord is absolutely related to the church dispute in Australia. If he is a Serbofil who has the power to transfer churches to them, he is more than just dangerous.

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, I dont know the priest personally but you tell me did he get excommunicated by MPC? How can a priest operate if he is excommunicated? I got nothing against the priest i dont know him nor have i met him before so im certainly not going to judge him. All i know is what i read on that article on the informator website, you're informed alot more then i am on this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolet View Post
See why cant we have a civil discussion without threats and insults?

You tell us.

When did i threaten anybody or insult anybody? Did i ever threaten you Aleksandrov? I've shown you nothing but respect for years, you know fully well that this Church Dispute is killing us and its not up to me to make matters worse. Like i told you i dont want to judge anybody especially somebody i dont know, you are clearly more informed then im on this matter and you've given your version of what happened thank you. There are always two sides to every story so its only fair that the priest gets a fair hearing.


Risto, Like i mentioned earlier the only way this can be solved is via the MPC itself, even Nikola Gruevski said he wouldnt interfere in church affairs. I can understand your concerns and i respect your opinion, i know Petar is not a perfect Bishop but my question to you is how do we solve this church dispute? How do you see a way out of this? This is the type of questions we should be asking ourselves.

[Risto the Great]

i know Petar is not a perfect Bishop but my question to you is how do we solve this church dispute? How do you see a way out of this? This is the type of questions we should be asking ourselves.

Petar has lost the faith of Macedonians with his desperate attempts to take ownership of community property.
Clearly Petar has to go.
Simple as that.

[Prolet]

Why have you never raised any question about Petar's own defrocking, signed by former Archbishop Gavril, which Petar has willfully defied?

Tell me a bit more about Gospodin Gospodin Gavril defrocking Bishop Petar? I've heard rumors about it but im not sure they are true. Why didnt Gospodin Gospodin Mihail follow up on this when he became ArchBishop?

[aleksandrov]

Tell me a bit more about Gospodin Gospodin Gavril defrocking Bishop Petar? I've heard rumors about it but im not sure they are true. Why didnt Gospodin Gospodin Mihail follow up on this when he became ArchBishop?

Prolet,

The decision to defrock Petar signed by g.g. Gavril has been published several times in various Macedonian publications. After it was made, Petar organized a protest in Bitola, in 1991, which was attended by Stefan (who was only a bishop then), as well as by Zoran Vraniskovski (who was an engineer running Petar's Diocesan library at the time). Petar published a book, entitled Glas na Vistinata, which contains the speeches from that protest and related commentary. In the book, Petar says that only g.g. Gavril and one other person have seen the decision to defrock him, but that hardly explains why the then Archbishop signed that decision. In that same book, there is a speech by Zoran Vraniskovski, in defense of Petar, in which he suggests that our 'sister' Orthodox churches may be right in saying that the Macedonian Orthodox Church is an artificial creation of the communists.

It is unclear why the Synod never implemented or formally abolished the decision to defrock Petar. We have raised the question with Petar, but he avoids it, saying that Gavril had no right to make that decision and that the Canons require 12 bishops to defrock another bishop. Yet the MOC has never had 12 bishops.

According to a book published by the late journalist Milan Durlo, from Prilep, Petar defied Archbishop g.g. Gavril with support from remnants of the Yugoslav, pro-Serbian political regime in Macedonia. During the relevant period, Petar had the support of bishops Stefan and Timotej. Timotej, along with Petar, later became one of the signatories to the Nish Accord with the Serbian Church. Stefan never commented the Nish Accord publicly, but was by all reliable accounts ready to rectify it until he was scared off by the huge public backlash in Macedonia.

In the intervening period, Petar has managed to stave off any opposition by other bishops through threats and unholy alliances. To give you an indication of how absurd this situation is, in his "Glas na Vistinata" book, Petar accuses bishop Kiril, who is one of the signatories to the MOC's declaration of independence from the Serbian church, of being a false bishop, who allegedly had love affairs with various women and was an accessory to murder. Yet Petar later had no problem sitting in the Synod alongside bishop Kiril. A couple of years ago, when there was a Synod discussion about withdrawing Petar from the Australian Diocese, Kiril was one of his key defenders at the Synod meeting.

In the same book, 'Glas na Vistinata', Petar accuses the then Bishop Mihail of having become a bishop by falsely placing his wife in an institution and committing a mortal sin, yet when Mihail later became Archbishop, Petar had no problem serving under him. In the same book, Petar accuses the then Archbishop Gavril of having been a Nazi collaborator and therefore unfit to be a bishop, yet he continued to serve under Gavril as Archbishop for a while before Gavril resigned. Upon his shock resignation (archbishops are appointed for life), Gavril publicly announced that he could no longer take the POLITICAL pressure he was under, including pressure from Petar, who was in alliance with the Serbian church.

If I knew how to post PDF files on this forum, I would post copies of the defrocking decision and the relevant book extracts. I did that on Maknews a couple of years ago, but somebody decided to delete a thread that took me hours to build up.

[julie]

Prolet, how old are you? and am not disresepcting you, am frustrated at some of your posts, and will place this post in very simple English for your understanding

Gospodin Gospodin Gavril tried to defrock Petar, however Petar had the support of his colleagues, and there was a no confidence vote against Gavril, bless him. And he was ousted.

In the words of ABBA song - money money money, must be funny.....
What man of God sues his own people Prolet? For something they built themselves to gain control of, he is in cahoots wiht Serbia wiht the anti - Macedonian bullshit.
He is gaining, suing and seizing assets in his name, and using fear control and manipulation of stupid minded Macedonians thinking he will tell God to send them to hell, which is what he is saying.

Now he is worjking with with reverned Nile, the most wonderful person in the world Prolet. My husband is not Macedonian, he is disgusted - because they dissolved the Presbyterian church in the same way that Petar is now passing the Bill

Wake up, read the facts can you not see he is trying to dissolve the MOC and under his own jursidction form something that he becomes the head of?

Aleksandrov has posted a detailed account, to show how they are trying to discredit honourable people in the MOC and to the lengths they are going,

READ everything before you say there are 2 sides to every story - the fact he is a bishop does not mean he is abobe the law, nor open and transparent and honest.
I am interested to know what your perspective is in this or whether you continue to support the unscrupulous behaviour and actions of this bishop, whom i will never bow down to!

[Risto the Great]

If I knew how to post PDF files on this forum, I would post copies of the defrocking decision and the relevant book extracts. I did that on Maknews a couple of years ago, but somebody decided to delete a thread that took me hours to build up.

Please email them to me and I will convert them to a format suitable for publication here.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.......MPC should be reformed and change some of its laws that date back to ancient history

Which laws?

......the Catholic Churches seem to be doing it so whats the problem here?

Doing what?

They dont have the same problems in North America and Europe, its only in Australia.

Why not, exactly?

As for the Informator website i didnt post the article and its been quite a while since i posted an article from there. You dont like the Informator Website?

What's the nature of your relationship with its owner, this blogger/cameraman/whatever his other profession is this week/petar sympathiser? You recently claimed him as one of the most suitable candidates for diaspora representative in Macedonia. Were you drinking something else in addition to the regular kilo of luta on that night?

[makedonche]

Makedonche, Its not off topic at all, this priest serves the Macedonian people in the Roseberry church in Sydney. Its no different to being a lawyer or a doctor and working without a license. You cant drive a car with a suspended license.

If he is an ordinary citizen he wouldnt be serving the people in church then would he?

Proletche
Once again, with respect, if Petar deems he is defrocked or he defrocked him then in his eyes he is no longer a priest - therefore it is incorrect to judge him or pass opinions on him as a priest...no?
If he is not defrocked by Petar then Petar still considers him a priest...yes? You can't have it both ways, once you make a statement that you have defrocked him and he is no longer a priest then you can't hold him accountable as a priest, you can only refer to him as an ordinary citizen! Do you understand what I'm saying here?(so pochit)

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, To me Gospodin Gospodin Mihail was the finest ArchBishop i had the pleasure of seing him once and it was like talking to god. He was an extremly good man and much better then GG Stefan is now thats for sure, at least in my opinion.

Bishop Kiril is an interesting figure, he is very much against the Serbian Orthodox Church and he is one of the most vocal Bishops that is against SPC having any juristiction over our church, his famous words were "Kako da bides na Bel Konj i da Padnes na Shugavo Magare"

Aleksandrov, Why dont the other Bishops publicly criticize Petar for that matter? When i was in Stari Kraj i spoke with Pop Chedo who is a priest at the Soborna Crkva and he said that Bishop Petar is a hard man to deal with and they are the same age too. He didnt say nothing bad about him but he said he had a hard character.

Makedonche, I thought only the Synod can defrock a bishop? How did Vranishkovski get defrocked?

SOM, They cant use out dated laws in a modern society, their old church laws dont fit in. The Synod is like a country within a country they are there to serve the people yet the people dont have any say in what goes on there. All their meetings are held in secret, their voting is secret and so forth.

[makedonche]

Quote:
" Makedonche, I thought only the Synod can defrock a bishop? How did Vranishkovski get defrocked?"

Proletche
You are the one who said "he was defrocked years ago"!
Now you are saying only the synod can defrock a bishop, and your'e asking me how Vranishkovski got defrocked? Prolet you made the statement, you explain it!

[Prolet]

Makedonche, I said i've heard calls that Gospodin Gospodin Gavril defrocked Bishop Petar but i dont know alot of details about it, only what Aleksandrov posted earlier.

So my point was who defrocked Vranishkovski? Did the synod vote or did Gospodin Gospodin Stefan make the decision all on his own as ArchBishop?