Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Risto the Great]

I find it difficult to imagine all of this arose purely out of matters of faith.

[makedonche]

I find it difficult to imagine all of this arose purely out of matters of faith.

RTG


...out of matters of faith, or coincidence? - way too far down the track for either of those, definitely pre-planned and executed. I remember asking myself at the time "Why would anybody do this to the Macedonian people" - here we are many years later and the puzzle is starting to fit together, purely by asking a few questions and looking for the truth!

[aleksandrov]

Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill 2010 (NSW)

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/nswbills.nsf/131a07fa4b8a041cca256e610012de17/1e07a6b4d23fe692ca2575ae0016f21c?OpenDocument

Above is a more current example of 'bishop' Petar Karevski trying to establish a new statutory CORPORATION, consisting of himself and a handful of his own appointees, to hold, control and use Macedonian Orthodox church properties in Australia on behalf of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Just a few quick points for now, before I come back later with a more elaborate critique:

1. The parliamentary Bill that he is pushing through the Hon Reverend Fred Nile (an ordained Minister of the protestant Uniting Church of Australia who now heads a competing protestant organization) would give Petar's new corporation the right to do whatever he wishes with properties he purportedly holds for the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia, without any accountability to the local Macedonian Orthodox community, and without practical accountability to the Archiepiscopal Church-People's Assembly and Holy Synod of the "Macedonian Orthodox Church - Ohrid Archdiocese."

2. One of the things he would be empowered to do is allow the church properties in question to be used by other religions/denominations (what other religion might he have in mind?!).

3. The bill would also empower Petar Karevski to declare that the trust relating to the properties subject to the Bill is inoperable and to put them under another trust, which could mean placing them under trust for another church (what other church might he have in mind, given his history of trying to place the Macedonian Church under Serbian jurisdiction?). He would not need approval from the Synod, the Archiepiscopal Church-People's Assembly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia, or from any organized body representing the democratic will of the local Macedonian community in order to do that.

4. It seems that 'bishop' Petar Karevski has conveniently omitted to inform the NSW Parliament that he and his Synod in Macedonia have changed their name to "Macedonian Orthodox Church - Ohrid Archdiocese (which represents one step towards realization of his Nish Accord with the Serbian Orthodox Church, and tests and prepares public sentiment for a change of the name of the Republic of Macedonia, to something like "Republic of Macedonia - Skopje").

5. After deceiving the Macedonian public for over a decade that if you are a company/corporation in Australia you must be a private business, and therefore cannot validly be the legal owner of church property, what is he doing now? Forming his own CORPORATION to be the legal owner of church property. The fundamental difference with his CORPORATION, however, is that, unlike existing incorporated Macedonian community organizations that operate churches, he will not have broad membership, a democratic structure and transparent constitutional objectives that are acceptable to the community they are meant to serve. His politically created "statutory" corporation would be exempted from the comprehensive provisions, checks and controls for the appropriate and transparent management of community property and funds that registered non-profit and charitable organizations in Australia are generally subject to.

6. Although he has for a long time been deceiving the public that a Bill of this kind is about RECOGNITION of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Australia, there is no mention of RECOGNITION of any church in the Bill whatsoever (which is not a surprise, since there is no such 'recognition' process in a country that respects everybody's right to freedom of religious self-determination and freedom of association, and in which Macedonian Orthodox churches have validly operated since the 1950s).

7. I am informed that the Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia has no real idea as to what the substance of this Bill is. If it knew, it would probably not support it. Unfortunately, as usual, the Synod is not showing proactive interest in what Petar does in Australia. Either because they don't care much about our community or because they have been silenced by his usual resort to threats, blackmail, and other dishonorable means of coercion.

9. Although this is a NSW Bill, it is intended to have extraterritorial effect i.e. to affect properties outside of NSW.

If you want to do something practical to stop this unscrupulous and deceptive attempt to disempower the self-organized and patriotic Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia, and to usurp their communal funds and assets, in the service of undetermined interests, please send a brief (even if only one sentence) email expressing opposition to the Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill to every member of the NSW Parliament: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pro...CurrentMembers

[Risto the Great]

Interesting reading regarding the Property Trust Bill.
Here is a link (the pdf on the right)

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/nswbills.nsf/0/1E07A6B4D23FE692CA2575AE0016F21C

Here are the functions of the trust pursuant to this Bill:

7
Functions of Trust

(1)The functions of the Trust are as follows:

(a)to purchase, exchange, take on lease, hold, dispose of andotherwise deal with property as trustee for, or for the purposes of,the Church,
(b)to acquire property by gift, devise or bequest and to agree to and carry out the conditions of the gift, devise or bequest,
(c)to borrow or lend money for the purposes of the Church,
(d)to mortgage, charge or otherwise encumber trust property,
(e)to make gifts and donations of property held by it for religious and charitable purposes,
(f)to enter into any guarantee or indemnity that may assist the Trust or the Church in the exercise of its functions,
(g)to do and suffer all other things (whether or not of the kind referred to in this section) that the Metropolitan considers to be necessary, appropriate or desirable,
(h)to do and suffer all other things that bodies corporate may, by law, do and suffer and that are necessary for or incidental to the exercise of its functions under this Act.

(2)The Trust has such other functions as are conferred or imposed on it by this Act.
(3)This section does not limit section 50 of the Interpretation Act 1987.

I note (d) above does not insist mortgaging or encumbering church property is done for the "purposes of the church".

Section (g) also confers a somewhat unhealthy power on the Metropolitan.

This needs more reading but I note a similar Bill introduced in Victoria as well.

[aleksandrov]

Some more critical Sections to focus on:

"13 Arrangements for other churches to use trust property
(1) In this section, scheme of co-operation means a scheme entered into by the Trust:
(a) with or involving a church of another denomination or any
congregation or activity of such a church, and
(b) concerning the use of trust property.
(2) The Trust may permit trust property to be used and managed for the
purposes of a scheme of co-operation on such terms and conditions as
the Trust determines."

"14 Trusts may be varied

(1) The Trust may by resolution declare that, in its opinion, it has become impossible or inexpedient to carry out or observe the terms of a trust of property vested in it, whether as to its purpose or any other of its terms.
(2) The Trust may, by the same or a later resolution, declare that the property is subject to another trust and, on the making of such a declaration:
(a) the trust that is to be replaced ceases, and
(b) the property is to be held subject to the other trust."

What are these provisions for if not to empower Petar to fulfill, at some future time, his long-standing objective of abolishing the ethnic identity of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and placing it under the jurisdiction of a non-Macedonian (i.e. Serbian) church? For those unfamiliar with Petar's record in this regard, I recommend this thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2030

[Risto the Great]

Were you unable to open the link to the Bill and Second Reading speech in my original post?

I clearly have the memory of an amoeba .... once I read your post I went looking for the document. Yours works fine.

[Prolet]

Proletche
It is an extremely important issue and has divided our communities at a time they need to be united. So this raises a few questions:
1/. Why divide the communities (because it's easier to manipulate them)
2/. Who divided the communities ( the Bishop by creating the problems)
3/. Who would benefit from the divided communities(the bishop, the greeks, the serbians and the bulgarians)
4/. What would they benefit( the bishop would be able to pick off each of the churches by lawsuits one at a time - harder to do it if they are all united)(the greeks bulgarians and serbs would keep us weaker and unable to claim our identity,history,culture and lands they have stolen).
Something for you to contemplate!
What's your opinion on my comments Prolet?

Makedonche, Spolaj Ti for your comments

I see zero benefit in anything that divides us from law suits, to punch ups to even boycotting events.

Its extremely disappointing to see our community divided like this, these lawsuits are killing our community and something has to be done about it.

Makedonche, Tomorrow there will be an exclusive report on the Informator website about a priest in Sydney, its not looking too good right now.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet, you keep talking about how disappointed you are. Well, so are we. I am disappointed with Petar specifically.

How about you? Where do you lay the 'responsibility' for this mess?

Are you a supporter of Petar's?

[makedonche]

Makedonche, Spolaj Ti for your comments

I see zero benefit in anything that divides us from law suits, to punch ups to even boycotting events.

Its extremely disappointing to see our community divided like this, these lawsuits are killing our community and something has to be done about it.

Makedonche, Tomorrow there will be an exclusive report on the Informator website about a priest in Sydney, its not looking too good right now.

Proletche
Thanks for your response and answers. I wonder if you wouldn't mind looking at the questions and answers I wrote and tell me if you agree or disagree with each one?

[aleksandrov]

If you want to do something practical to stop this unscrupulous and deceptive attempt to disempower the self-organized and patriotic Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia, and to usurp their communal funds and assets, in the service of undetermined interests, please send a brief (even if only one sentence) email expressing opposition to the Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill to every member of the NSW Parliament:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/members.nsf/V3ListCurrentMembers

[indigen]

If you want to do something practical to stop this unscrupulous and deceptive attempt to disempower the self-organized and patriotic Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia, and to usurp their communal funds and assets, in the service of undetermined interests, please send a brief(even if only one sentence) email expressing opposition to the Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill to every member of the NSW Parliament:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pro...CurrentMembers

Can you please explain how he can do this to the registered Public Companies and Incorporated Associations not under the Canonical jurisdiction of MPC/MOC-Ohrid Archdiocese, e.g. MOCS?

Secondly, what are the relevant dates (so that we can asses the urgency for responding and to learn about processes involved) in getting this legislation passed into Law?

Lastly, can you provide a sample/template letter to be used directly or as a reference point and an email address/web page for a contact to a campaign coordinator for obtaining future campaign action notices?

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, The link doesnt work

SOM, I support MPC but i dont believe Bishop Petar has done a good job in uniting our people and bringing our community closer as its his job to do so as a Bishop. I do believe in hierarchy but at the same time i believe in reform within MPC.

I think after 15 years Bishop Petar should move on to other duties, keep in mind that an Ambassador has a 4 year term a President has a 5 year term so its time for a new Bishop to come in and pick up the pieces whatever is left over.

Makedonche, I dont agree entirely with your answers but i do agree with the majority of your points. We cant put all the blame on Bishop Petar, everybody needs to take responsibility including the community leaders.

Every single Macedonian Orthodox Church in Australia and outside of Macedonia should be under the umbrella of the MPC, i just think there needs to be done in a better way and with the support of all the leaders.

[makedonche]

Quote:
Makedonche, I dont agree entirely with your answers but i do agree with the majority of your points. We cant put all the blame on Bishop Petar, everybody needs to take responsibility including the community leaders.

Every single Macedonian Orthodox Church in Australia and outside of Macedonia should be under the umbrella of the MPC, i just think there needs to be done in a better way and with the support of all the leaders."

Proletche
I am not blaming anyone, they were general observations and opinions.
Everybody does need to take responsibility and accountability - the Community Leaders have no choice, they are accountable to the members and they did take responsibility and tried to unite under the umbrella of the MPC, but it takes both parties to agree and reach a satisfying result in line with the law and the wishes of the members of the communities. It was the wishes of the members that were ignored and cast aside without consideration that led to the commencement of legal proceedings. Now I'm sure you know how the law works here and how under Australian law the members of an association vote on it's direction and most other matters - in particular transparency and accountability, stucture, procedures,finances etc. - it is this very accountability and transparency they were seeking before handing over assets(churches,halls,centres,properties) and the transparency and accountability were denied. Bearing all this in mind where do you think the fault is (not whose fault is it)?

[julie]

1. The parliamentary Bill that he is pushing through the Hon Reverend Fred Nile (who happens to be a Minister of the protestant Uniting Church of Australia) would give Petar's new corporation the right to do whatever he wishes with properties he purportedly holds for the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia

,
the "uniting Church", my dear fellow forum members disolved the Presbyterian church .
The uniting Church leader is allowing Petar to do the same, how very kind of them to shove their faces where they dont belong, of course, Petar has wonderful support from a leading disolver of religion, how dare he, and why do you think this is so prolet? not to unite but to disolve the Macedonian Orthodox Church

You go and be a good little sheep boy and follow Petar with his newly made up church, because that is where this is heading

Prolet, grow up, sober up or wake up.

[indigen]

If you want to do something practical to stop this unscrupulous and deceptive attempt to disempower the self-organized and patriotic Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia, and to usurp their communal funds and assets, in the service of undetermined interests, please send a brief (even if only one sentence) email expressing opposition to the Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill to every member of the NSW Parliament:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pro...CurrentMembers

Here is a working link: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/members.nsf/V3ListCurrentMembers