The Macedonian Minority in Albania and Kosovo

[Soldier of Macedon]

Relax mate, I just asked if you guys are familiar to each other, not if you're the same person.

[Uskana]

Yes i`ve read it and it`s a stupid theory without any base or proof. I told you that none of Balkan immigrants settled into the eastern Anatolia. %90 of them living in western Turkey(most in Izmir, Bursa, Istanbul) and %10 at central Anatolia. So, according to your delusional Albano-ultranationalists, Serbian Yugo people tried to convert Albanians as Turks?? Mate, no one believes this Turkification theory. After what happened in Balkans between 1830 to 1913, no one in the world can make me believe that Serbian commie Yugos had NATO member pro-Turkish stance.

Albanians presented a problem for Yugoslavia. You can look at the Albanians in Kosova, Macedonia and even Montenegro for examples of the issue they present today. Albanians are't Slavs, they are nationalistic and they wouldn't easily assimilate into Yugoslavia. You can read about the issue they posed from a Serb p.o.v. f(click here.) Deporting Albanians to Turkey was real and is not a "stupid theory." However a justification was needed for the greater powers to expulse the Albanians from Macedonia to Macedonia. Declaring them as Turks was it.

Close to one million Albanians were deported or move to Turkey in the 20th century. Do you honestly think 1 million of them considered Turkish? Do you really think there were 1 million Turks in Macedonia and Kosova? Do you honestly think Turks cared if these people spoke Turkish or not? Turkey in the 50's had a population of 20 million. Kosovars were deported in the early 20th century where the population was even lower for Turkey. These people helped filled empty lands and helped the growth of Turkey. It was in Turkey's best interest to take them in, and it was in Yugoslavia's best interest to depopulate Albanian areas. Many Albanians from Macedonia have long lost family that moved to Turkey. So please spare us your BS.

Lastly moving Albanians to Turkey was not done in Turkey's interest by the YU since Christian Slavs loathe the Ottoman rule and hate their successors the Turks, but it was more about solving their current problem which was the Albanians.

[Onur]

Listen mate, read the links I posted again. The Turkification of Albanians was used to justify deportations. Promoting Turkification in Yugoslavia was used to limit the rights of Albanians.

Yes i`ve read it and it`s a stupid theory without any base or proof. I told you that none of Balkan immigrants settled into the eastern Anatolia. %90 of them living in western Turkey(most in Izmir, Bursa, Istanbul) and %10 at central Anatolia. So, according to your delusional Albano-ultranationalists, Serbian Yugo people tried to convert Albanians as Turks?? Mate, no one believes this Turkification theory. After what happened in Balkans between 1830 to 1913, no one in the world can make me believe that Serbian commie Yugos had NATO member pro-Turkish stance.

Look mate there's a vast difference between the Turks in Western Turkey who are predominately of Balkan and Caucasus descent and those with Eastern Turkey. I might look similar to someone in Western Turkey but i would be out of place in Eastern part, especially south Eastern part with Kurds.

Your lack of comprehension limits your conception skills again. Did you know that Turkey is not a small country as Albania mate. It takes 1700km to go from west side to east side border in turkey. Ofc it`s perfectly normal that people will look a bit different. Is there anywhere in the world where the indigenous people with 1700km distance between each other looks identical? Plus, you talk about Kurds. They are not Turks mate. Kurds are the mix of Arabs, eastern Anatolia Turks and Armenians. Especially Kurds looks very similar with Armenians and many believe that the Kurds are mostly islamized Armenians because they lived together for 1000+ years. Ofc these Kurds looks different than a Turk who lives 1700km away from them.

BUT apparently the Azeri people who lives at even more eastern side then the Kurds looks and behaves much similar with us because they are Turks.

[Uskana]

You guys are in delusion but you are not alone. Bulgars and Greeks seriously thinks that every Turkish speaking muslim as Bulgars or Greeks too. Yet neither of them can answer to the question of what happened to the Turkish people who migrated into Balkans over 800 years of time. Did they vaporize all of a sudden after 20th century?


Got ya again Uskana cuz the pro-Turkish stance of your Albanians confirms my theory of the Albanians pretending to be Turks at 1950s to be able to migrate here.

Besides, it`s not our concern that if your Albanians are wanna be Turks. You persistently say that we "brainwashed" your Albanians in Turkey. If thats the case, why the Albanians in Albania and Macedonia have pro-Turkish stance and speaks Turkish? Did we magically imported Turkishness ideas to Albania and brainwashed them too? Is that your explanation?

Listen mate, read the links I posted again. The Turkification of Albanians was used to justify deportations. Promoting Turkification in Yugoslavia was used to limit the rights of Albanians.

And many Albanians spoke Turkish since during the Ottoman time it was the language used and the Turks did not allow Albanian schools. Serbian and Greek schools were allowed, but not Albanian.

PS:

I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame what happened in YU to the Macedonians but I bring them up to help explain the current situation in Macedonia.

t`s obvious that you don't know shit about us except fascist anti-Turk propaganda. Azerbaijani Turks never stepped in to the Balkans and yet they look very similar to us except minor difference in appearance, similar to the difference between eastern and western Germany.

Also, Hungarians and Estonians originated from same territories as Turks too. Do they look like Mongols or Arabs like us in your conception? We Turks came from Caucasus like Hungarians, Estonians and others. If we look like Mongols for you then tell your USA government to change their 200 year old definition to call all white people as Caucasian.


Go to your Turkish speaking relatives and educate yourself about us or stop creating false theories with your pathetic knowledge limited to "stormfront".

Look mate there's a vast difference between the Turks in Western Turkey who are predominately of Balkan and Caucasus descent and those with Eastern Turkey. I might look similar to someone in Western Turkey but i would be out of place in Eastern part, especially south Eastern part with Kurds.

[Onur]

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_40

The Turkification of the Albanians was used to justify the depopulation of Albanian areas.



Unfortunately this is true. Some even speak it at home today. My father's Albanian teacher from Tetova spoke Turkish to his children at home. Ironic.

You guys are in delusion but you are not alone. Bulgars and Greeks seriously thinks that every Turkish speaking muslim as Bulgars or Greeks too. Yet neither of them can answer to the question of what happened to the Turkish people who migrated into Balkans over 800 years of time. Did they vaporize all of a sudden after 20th century?


Got ya again Uskana cuz the pro-Turkish stance of your Albanians confirms my theory of the Albanians pretended to be Turks at 1950s to be able to migrate here.

Besides, it`s not our concern that if your Albanians are wanna be Turks. You persistently say that we "brainwashed" your Albanians in Turkey. If thats the case, then why the Albanians in Albania and Macedonia have pro-Turkish stance and speaks Turkish? Did we magically imported Turkishness ideas to Albania and brainwashed them too? Is that your explanation?

The Turkification of Albanians in Macedonia is unfortunate. Turkish rights were promoted in Yugoslavia over Albanian rights even though their numbers were not much smaller then ours.

Completely bullshit again. IT IS YOU, the Albanians constantly tried to assimilate Turkish people in Macedonia. You occupied all of our 500 year old mosques in Macedonia and you Albanians adopted every Turkish monuments in there like these ever belonged to the Albanians!!!. Then you Albanians spread anti-Turkish propaganda in our Ottoman Turkish mosques. I am not even talking about Kosovo but we know that you did far worse things upon Turkish people in there.

When most of Turkish people expelled from Balkans after 1850s and when the Turks lost their influence in Balkans, then you Albanians again exploited this situation by trying to assimilate remaining Turkish people in all over Balkans. Converting them as Albanians to artificially increase your population. Can you deny this?

LOL I guess one wannabe-Arab explains everything. Like I said, Albanians are European looking for the most part. The European looking Turks in Turkey come from the Balkans.

It`s obvious that you don't know shit about us except fascist anti-Turk propaganda. Azerbaijani Turks never stepped in to the Balkans and yet they look very similar to us except minor difference in appearance, similar to the difference between Austrian and German.

Also, Hungarians and Estonians originated from same territories as Turks too. Do they look like Mongols or Arabs like us in your conception? We Turks came from Caucasus like Hungarians, Estonians and others. If we look like Mongols for you then tell your USA government to change their 200 year old definition to call all white people as Caucasian, ok?


Go to your Turkish wanna be relatives and educate yourself about us or stop creating false theories with your pathetic knowledge limited to "stormfront".

[Uskana]

Ok let's assume Albania does not give Macedonia full rights, what does that have to do with the Albanians in Macedonia? We don't vote for their representatives and most of us have little to no say what occurs in their country. Again, it seems that many of you use these Macedonians to limit the rights of Albanians in Macedonia. "Well the Macedonians in ALbania don't have this, so the Albanians shouldn't have this either." Albanians are known to be fair to its minorities. Even Greeks have schools in Albania, however, the opposite is not true.

As for Shkreti, shkreti is an Albanian word. You can look up the meaning itself and there's even a place in Albania called Shkreti. Here's a song about them as well in Albanian:

YouTube - Mahmut Ferati-Jam I Shkreti Tu Mendu By-Dj_Sheno

The Turkification of Albanians in Macedonia is unfortunate. Turkish rights were promoted in Yugoslavia over Albanian rights even though their numbers were not much smaller then ours.

[Mastika]

Truth be told, many of these Macedonian Muslims are not being assimilated by force in Albania. They feel closer to Albanians and many feel integrated within Albanian society. A shared religion with the Albanians probably helps. Like I mentioned, the Orthodox Albanians in Macedonia have been assimilated into Macedonian culture as well. A similar religion with the Macedonians was the main factor for this. I blame the Albanians in our case for not reaching out to these people.

Many of them are, by not being able to set up Macedonian language schools, churches (many people in Golo Brdo are christian) and other Macedonian language factilities they of course will not be able to foster their own culture. In Golo Brdo the minister for education was involved when Macedonians wanted to open a school in Macedonian recently. By not recognising the minority the Albanian state is already exerting preassure on the minority group.

We recognise Albanians and give them full rights, we expect the same for the ALL the Macedonians living in Albania.

I've yet to go to any of these places but from the videos I've seen online, they share much with the Albanians. Similar weddings, similar dress and so forth. Many of the older folks still speak Albanian.

What does Shkreti mean in Macedonian?

Yes there are many aspects similar. This is the Balkans, all our cultures have strong parallels.

It seems that Shkreti originates from the Geg word for 'Slav', Шкја/Shkja. I do not know Albanian so I cannot comment further.

Unfortunately this is true. Some even speak it at home today. My father's Albanian teacher from Tetova spoke Turkish to his children at home. Ironic.

I wouldn't say that it is unfortunate, it is apart of the Albanian culture.

[Uskana]

SOM, what if Evliya Celebi was telling the truth about Albanians being Arabian immigrants?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012

Then our Albanian fella is right because Arabs doesn't look like Turks. Therefore Albanians shouldn't look like us either but there is one misconception here that Uskana thinks that it`s "European look"

LOL I guess one wannabe-Arab explains everything. Like I said, Albanians are European looking for the most part. The European looking Turks in Turkey come from the Balkans.

[Uskana]

So they shouold be looked down upon by other Macedonian Muslim/Torbesh and Orthodox Macedonian groups. There are villages across Macedonia where the Macedonian muslims are being Albanised. This is happening across Macedonia in Debar, Struga, the Torbesija, Tetovo, Kicevo and North Pelagonija. This is sadly happening. It seems that only a few villages identifying themselves on the census as being ethnically Macedonian and being Muslims. Most prefer to write themselves down as Albanians, Turks, Muslims or Bosniaks, for bullshit reasons.

Truth be told, many of these Macedonian Muslims are not being assimilated by force in Albania. They feel closer to Albanians and many feel integrated within Albanian society. A shared religion with the Albanians probably helps. Like I mentioned, the Orthodox Albanians in Macedonia have been assimilated into Macedonian culture as well. A similar religion with the Macedonians was the main factor for this. I blame the Albanians in our case for not reaching out to these people.

This group is virtually non existant in their former villages. The "Albanian" inhabitants left are primarily Muslim, and thus would never have been Shkreti anyway. I can only think in a few villages such as Vrben, which were Shkreti in the past but Macedonian now. To claim that these people are not Macedonian is offensive to them, seeing as they have no links to the Albanian nation nor do they observe Albanian customs. If you have been to Vrben (which is the largest former Shkreti village left) you will know what I am talking about.

I've yet to go to any of these places but from the videos I've seen online, they share much with the Albanians. Similar weddings, similar dress and so forth. Many of the older folks still speak Albanian.

What does Shkreti mean in Macedonian?

You are very much mistaken here. The main areas targeted by this emigration to Turkey were the Turkish villages of Eastern Macedonia as well as the Tikvesh Macedonian Muslim villages. The emigration was effective. Most of the Turkish villages are either empty or populated by under 100 people. Some Albanians did get through however the emigration scheme was neither aimed at Albanians nor were Albanians the largest Muslim group to leave Macedonia.

Turkey agrees to accept 200,000 Albanians, Turks, and Muslims from Kosovo and Macedonia, though the 1921 census counted only 50,000 Turkish speakers in Yugoslavia. Turkey wants to use them to increase the population of parts of Anatolia and around Kurdistan, especially Diyarbakir, Elazig, and Yozgat, which are worse for agriculture than the areas the deportees left. Some settle in Bursa, Istanbul, Tekirdag, Izmir, Kocaeli, and Ekisehir. Most are deported on the Skopje-Thessaloniki railroad, then by another train or ship to eastern Turkey. Despite accepting the emigrants, Turkey’s parliament refuses to ratify the agreement, which scholar Miranda Vickers will later attribute to a change of government in Yugoslavia in 1939, lack of funds, and the impending world war. [VICKERS, 1998, PP. 117-120; KOLA, 2003, PP. 21, 102]

Subsequently, from the 1950s to the 1970s, Yugoslav Albanians will be encouraged to identify as Turkish, through the establishment of Turkish language schools and media. The Albanian population will also be intimidated by the security forces. An agreement will be concluded with Turkey in 1953 under which Turkey will accept deported Yugoslav Albanians.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_40

The Turkification of the Albanians was used to justify the depopulation of Albanian areas.

Uskana, I read somewhere that the richer Albanian families of Skopje and Tetovo used to speak Turkish at home up until the 1970s as a sign of prestige. Can you confirm/deny this?

Unfortunately this is true. Some even speak it at home today. My father's Albanian teacher from Tetova spoke Turkish to his children at home. Ironic.

[Epirot]

Welcome back Epirot, interesting how you make an appearance around the same time another Albanian recently starts posting here at the MTO. Are you and Uskana familiar to each other?

If you suspect that I am Uskana, feel free to check out my I.P.
I really do not know how many Albanians are members here since in all threads I posted there were not Albanians debaters.
Seriously, I'm not USKANA!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Welcome back Epirot, interesting how you make an appearance around the same time another Albanian recently starts posting here at the MTO. Are you and Uskana familiar to each other?

[Epirot]

I read somewhere where some Gorani claim to be Macedonians who originated from Resen where their ancestors left in the 18th/19th century.

That's may be interesting! You mean from Resen in the outskirts of Prespa lake!? When I checked a map of Gora's village in Kosova I found many parallels between Resnja region, Brod region with Gora one...

[Epirot]

In Prizren (Kosovo) the UN records show about 50,000 people who identified themselves as Torbeshi. This is interesting because 'Torbesh' is a Macedonian designation. As far as I am aware the Gorani call themselves 'Gorani' but believe they are Macedonians.

A statement without any direct valid reference cannot be taken seriously by others.

[Epirot]

again la la land?

take less drugs, dude

the Albanians from Kosovo are doing all kinds of terror against non-Albanian population.

most of the Gipsies, Macedonians, Serbs and other non-shiptars were / are forced to leave their homes.

your stories you can tell to CNN and BBC, after you force your children cry with help of onion.

save your propaganda bs for those who are not informed, we know you TOO good

You seem to be incorrigible mate! Put in your head that prejudices and anger lead nowhere...

Can you find me just a single example that Gipsies, Macedonians, Serbs and other non-Albanian are forced to leave their homes? There are many international institutions here in Kosova. They do not record any expulsion of minorities as you blatantly speculate!

Albanians are known for their proverbial tolerance over ethnic and religious minorities. Albanians never conquered or pulled out ethnic minorities as did Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs with thousand innocent ethnic Albanians, Macedonians, Turks, Jews, Bosniaks, etc. Full stop!

[Onur]

Unfortunately, his uncle appears to be a rarity according to some, take John Wilkes' book for example, and his statement regarding today's Albanians:

SOM, what if Evliya Celebi was telling the truth about Albanians being Arabian immigrants?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012

Then our Albanian fella is right because Arabs doesn't look like Turks. Therefore Albanians shouldn't look like us either but there is one misconception here that Uskana thinks that it`s "European look"