The Macedonian Minority in Albania and Kosovo

[Soldier of Macedon]

Uskana, I have noticed you write Macedonian in the " " marks the majority of the time. I am positive you are doing this as an offense towards Macedonians, in the misguided delusion that your "people" are somehow more 'valid' than ours. If you insult my people in that manner again, you go crawl back into the hole where Turks and 'Slavic Muslims' call themselves Arben and pretend to be Illyrians. You seem capable of normal discussion, don't let yourself down with your Albanocentric clownery and provocations, because you get the same level of courtesy and respect that you give here.

[Onur]

That's a cheap ploy. Compare me to a Greek to win some sympathy on this board (believe me you don't need to compare me to a Greek to get support against me.)

But you really sounded like one by calling all the Macedonian and Kosovar muslim population as Albanians.

The population of Turkey was barely 20 million in the 1950's. And here's a reason why you would take them in:

http://www.historycommons.org/contex...nation_tmln_40

Thats totally bullshit.

Do you know that the Kurdish population in Turkey only rapidly increased in the last 20 years? and they managed to reach %11 percent now. They were probably not more than %5 at 1950s. This ridicules theiry is so stupid even for imagining it. Importing Albanians from Yugo to depopulate Kurds!!! Plus, all the Balkan immigrants settled to western Anatolia mostly, some few to central but Kurds lives in eastern Anatolia at Iraq border.

I could never even think that Turkey would get accusations for giving new lives to few sneaky Albanians who pretended to be the Turks to come to Turkey. Thats really shocking and very ungrateful for them. I am sure that the Albanians in turkey doesn't think like that but the ones who does such accusations are really absurd and unfair.

My uncle was European looking, definately no Turkish lineage. Like I said, today they're Turks. Brainwashed Turks. Ironic that many Albanians that emigrated to the West still return back to visit their motherland. Not the case with the Albanians from Turkey. What does this say about Turkey?

Ohh yes, if there is any Turk in the family, then all the children gets Genghis Khan look-a-like face, right? You sound like Greek for the 2nd time mate.

I told you, if you think that the Turks brainwashed him, then weit `till EU gets Albania in and lure them all with EU passport like Bulgars does nowadays but what if his children looks like Mongols, not like a "pretty" european?!! since probably he is married with a turk

[Soldier of Macedon]

My uncle was European looking, definately no Turkish lineage.

Lol.

Ohh yes, if there is any Turk in the family, then all the children gets Genghis Khan look-a-like face, right? You sound like Greek for the 2nd time mate.

Good respone. Our little Albanian friend here, along with many others like him, subscribe to these 'white' stormfront-style theories with their fellow racists among the more idiotic elements of Greek society. Unfortunately, his uncle appears to be a rarity according to some, take John Wilkes' book for example, and his statement regarding today's Albanians:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...=Wilkes&page=2

In the matter of physical character skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m, female 1.53 m). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian ahtropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians. (The Illyrians, pg. 219).

His uncle must have been Nordic, haha.

[Prolet]

Where is this Albanian Orthodox community in Reka? Which villages do they live in?

He is talking about the Shkreti, most of them originate from the Mavrovo region and there are around 12-15 villages with Shkreti. The Shkreti are Macedonian Christians however Albanian is their mother tongue as this was enforced once the Balisti took over the region in WW2. Many Shkreti emigrated to Skopje just like the Galichani did, i even have friends who are married to them.

Ottoman Turks have always lived in Macedonia and during the Ottoman Empire which lasted for more then 500 years its natural that the Turkish Language be the Official Language its no different to us speaking English in Australia and America.

I remember watching an interview of a Senior Turkish Community leader in Kosovo saying how their language and identity is not recognized there, they simply tell them that they are Albanians.

Uskana, Its not Shkup and Manastir its Skopje and Bitola

The old name for Skopje in Turkish is Skupi, there is a place called Skupi in the Skopje region where its very ancient like Stobi for example and Archeologists are digging it up now and investigating it. The Albanians seem to think its ok to rename our cities, so if we were to use your Turkish name it would be Arnauti or Arnautluk.

You dont like being called Shiptari yet you like to enforce Albanian names onto our cities and nationalities how does this work? You are starting to sound like Menduh Tachi and Ali Ahmeti.

[Uskana]

You do realize Shkreti is an Albanian word? There's a place in Central Albania called that as well.

And I have heard that some of them have married with Macedonian Orthodox and refuse to accept their real identity.

[Mastika]

Ok, if you say so.

Many Torbesh have intermarried with Albanians. Near Kercova there is a village called Bacista. They speak Macedonians but claim to be Albanians. This group is looked down upon, like the other Torbesh by the Albanian community.

So they shouold be looked down upon by other Macedonian Muslim/Torbesh and Orthodox Macedonian groups. There are villages across Macedonia where the Macedonian muslims are being Albanised. This is happening across Macedonia in Debar, Struga, the Torbesija, Tetovo, Kicevo and North Pelagonija. This is sadly happening. It seems that only a few villages identifying themselves on the census as being ethnically Macedonian and being Muslims. Most prefer to write themselves down as Albanians, Turks, Muslims or Bosniaks, for bullshit reasons.

I don't claim to be an expert, but from I known many of these villages are empty because many of them have moved to Shkup. I don't know much about these people since there numbers are small, but the common sentiment in the Albanian community is they were Albanian but today they claim to be Macedonian.

I'm not exactly sure, but there numbers are small.

This group is virtually non existant in their former villages. The "Albanian" inhabitants left are primarily Muslim, and thus would never have been Shkreti anyway. I can only think in a few villages such as Vrben, which were Shkreti in the past but Macedonian now. To claim that these people are not Macedonian is offensive to them, seeing as they have no links to the Albanian nation nor do they observe Albanian customs. If you have been to Vrben (which is the largest former Shkreti village left) you will know what I am talking about.

I understand, but I will still contend the majority of these people were not "Turks" but were Albanian. Of course the source you mention contradicts this info. Like I mentioned, my mother's uncle barely knew any Turkish and he was allowed in Turkey. He had issues coming back though.

You are very much mistaken here. The main areas targeted by this emigration to Turkey were the Turkish villages of Eastern Macedonia as well as the Tikvesh Macedonian Muslim villages. The emigration was effective. Most of the Turkish villages are either empty or populated by under 100 people. Some Albanians did get through however the emigration scheme was neither aimed at Albanians nor were Albanians the largest Muslim group to leave Macedonia.

As for the Turks living in Kosovo, it does seem that they are afforded minority rights by the government. It seems that the Turks in Mamuşa (where they are 90%+ of the population) do have access to Turkish language facilities etc. It seems that the Turks in Prizren also have minority rights. I will leave my comments regarding them, at this point. However, as is expected, I am sure that there are social preassures urging them to assimilated into the wider Albanian majority.

Uskana, I read somewhere that the richer Albanian families of Skopje and Tetovo used to speak Turkish at home up until the 1970s as a sign of prestige. Can you confirm/deny this?

[Onur]

Unfortunately, his uncle appears to be a rarity according to some, take John Wilkes' book for example, and his statement regarding today's Albanians:

SOM, what if Evliya Celebi was telling the truth about Albanians being Arabian immigrants?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012

Then our Albanian fella is right because Arabs doesn't look like Turks. Therefore Albanians shouldn't look like us either but there is one misconception here that Uskana thinks that it`s "European look"

[Epirot]

again la la land?

take less drugs, dude

the Albanians from Kosovo are doing all kinds of terror against non-Albanian population.

most of the Gipsies, Macedonians, Serbs and other non-shiptars were / are forced to leave their homes.

your stories you can tell to CNN and BBC, after you force your children cry with help of onion.

save your propaganda bs for those who are not informed, we know you TOO good

You seem to be incorrigible mate! Put in your head that prejudices and anger lead nowhere...

Can you find me just a single example that Gipsies, Macedonians, Serbs and other non-Albanian are forced to leave their homes? There are many international institutions here in Kosova. They do not record any expulsion of minorities as you blatantly speculate!

Albanians are known for their proverbial tolerance over ethnic and religious minorities. Albanians never conquered or pulled out ethnic minorities as did Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs with thousand innocent ethnic Albanians, Macedonians, Turks, Jews, Bosniaks, etc. Full stop!

[Epirot]

In Prizren (Kosovo) the UN records show about 50,000 people who identified themselves as Torbeshi. This is interesting because 'Torbesh' is a Macedonian designation. As far as I am aware the Gorani call themselves 'Gorani' but believe they are Macedonians.

A statement without any direct valid reference cannot be taken seriously by others.

[Epirot]

I read somewhere where some Gorani claim to be Macedonians who originated from Resen where their ancestors left in the 18th/19th century.

That's may be interesting! You mean from Resen in the outskirts of Prespa lake!? When I checked a map of Gora's village in Kosova I found many parallels between Resnja region, Brod region with Gora one...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Welcome back Epirot, interesting how you make an appearance around the same time another Albanian recently starts posting here at the MTO. Are you and Uskana familiar to each other?

[Epirot]

Welcome back Epirot, interesting how you make an appearance around the same time another Albanian recently starts posting here at the MTO. Are you and Uskana familiar to each other?

If you suspect that I am Uskana, feel free to check out my I.P.
I really do not know how many Albanians are members here since in all threads I posted there were not Albanians debaters.
Seriously, I'm not USKANA!

[Uskana]

So they shouold be looked down upon by other Macedonian Muslim/Torbesh and Orthodox Macedonian groups. There are villages across Macedonia where the Macedonian muslims are being Albanised. This is happening across Macedonia in Debar, Struga, the Torbesija, Tetovo, Kicevo and North Pelagonija. This is sadly happening. It seems that only a few villages identifying themselves on the census as being ethnically Macedonian and being Muslims. Most prefer to write themselves down as Albanians, Turks, Muslims or Bosniaks, for bullshit reasons.

Truth be told, many of these Macedonian Muslims are not being assimilated by force in Albania. They feel closer to Albanians and many feel integrated within Albanian society. A shared religion with the Albanians probably helps. Like I mentioned, the Orthodox Albanians in Macedonia have been assimilated into Macedonian culture as well. A similar religion with the Macedonians was the main factor for this. I blame the Albanians in our case for not reaching out to these people.

This group is virtually non existant in their former villages. The "Albanian" inhabitants left are primarily Muslim, and thus would never have been Shkreti anyway. I can only think in a few villages such as Vrben, which were Shkreti in the past but Macedonian now. To claim that these people are not Macedonian is offensive to them, seeing as they have no links to the Albanian nation nor do they observe Albanian customs. If you have been to Vrben (which is the largest former Shkreti village left) you will know what I am talking about.

I've yet to go to any of these places but from the videos I've seen online, they share much with the Albanians. Similar weddings, similar dress and so forth. Many of the older folks still speak Albanian.

What does Shkreti mean in Macedonian?

You are very much mistaken here. The main areas targeted by this emigration to Turkey were the Turkish villages of Eastern Macedonia as well as the Tikvesh Macedonian Muslim villages. The emigration was effective. Most of the Turkish villages are either empty or populated by under 100 people. Some Albanians did get through however the emigration scheme was neither aimed at Albanians nor were Albanians the largest Muslim group to leave Macedonia.

Turkey agrees to accept 200,000 Albanians, Turks, and Muslims from Kosovo and Macedonia, though the 1921 census counted only 50,000 Turkish speakers in Yugoslavia. Turkey wants to use them to increase the population of parts of Anatolia and around Kurdistan, especially Diyarbakir, Elazig, and Yozgat, which are worse for agriculture than the areas the deportees left. Some settle in Bursa, Istanbul, Tekirdag, Izmir, Kocaeli, and Ekisehir. Most are deported on the Skopje-Thessaloniki railroad, then by another train or ship to eastern Turkey. Despite accepting the emigrants, Turkey’s parliament refuses to ratify the agreement, which scholar Miranda Vickers will later attribute to a change of government in Yugoslavia in 1939, lack of funds, and the impending world war. [VICKERS, 1998, PP. 117-120; KOLA, 2003, PP. 21, 102]

Subsequently, from the 1950s to the 1970s, Yugoslav Albanians will be encouraged to identify as Turkish, through the establishment of Turkish language schools and media. The Albanian population will also be intimidated by the security forces. An agreement will be concluded with Turkey in 1953 under which Turkey will accept deported Yugoslav Albanians.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_40

The Turkification of the Albanians was used to justify the depopulation of Albanian areas.

Uskana, I read somewhere that the richer Albanian families of Skopje and Tetovo used to speak Turkish at home up until the 1970s as a sign of prestige. Can you confirm/deny this?

Unfortunately this is true. Some even speak it at home today. My father's Albanian teacher from Tetova spoke Turkish to his children at home. Ironic.

[Uskana]

SOM, what if Evliya Celebi was telling the truth about Albanians being Arabian immigrants?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012

Then our Albanian fella is right because Arabs doesn't look like Turks. Therefore Albanians shouldn't look like us either but there is one misconception here that Uskana thinks that it`s "European look"

LOL I guess one wannabe-Arab explains everything. Like I said, Albanians are European looking for the most part. The European looking Turks in Turkey come from the Balkans.

[Mastika]

Truth be told, many of these Macedonian Muslims are not being assimilated by force in Albania. They feel closer to Albanians and many feel integrated within Albanian society. A shared religion with the Albanians probably helps. Like I mentioned, the Orthodox Albanians in Macedonia have been assimilated into Macedonian culture as well. A similar religion with the Macedonians was the main factor for this. I blame the Albanians in our case for not reaching out to these people.

Many of them are, by not being able to set up Macedonian language schools, churches (many people in Golo Brdo are christian) and other Macedonian language factilities they of course will not be able to foster their own culture. In Golo Brdo the minister for education was involved when Macedonians wanted to open a school in Macedonian recently. By not recognising the minority the Albanian state is already exerting preassure on the minority group.

We recognise Albanians and give them full rights, we expect the same for the ALL the Macedonians living in Albania.

I've yet to go to any of these places but from the videos I've seen online, they share much with the Albanians. Similar weddings, similar dress and so forth. Many of the older folks still speak Albanian.

What does Shkreti mean in Macedonian?

Yes there are many aspects similar. This is the Balkans, all our cultures have strong parallels.

It seems that Shkreti originates from the Geg word for 'Slav', Шкја/Shkja. I do not know Albanian so I cannot comment further.

Unfortunately this is true. Some even speak it at home today. My father's Albanian teacher from Tetova spoke Turkish to his children at home. Ironic.

I wouldn't say that it is unfortunate, it is apart of the Albanian culture.