Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Sovius]

It is already being promoted this way.
Could you have the Macedonians capitulate in any worse fashion?

It’s the idea that a compromise is somehow necessary that empowers those who are benefiting from all these distractions. A compromise would indirectly (while only seemingly) validate many of the past actions of Greece on a political level. What name would those Macedonians who gave their lives for the cause of freedom and self-determination almost a century ago have Greece or any other nation refer to Macedonia as? It is their will that must never be forgotten and it is this same will that has the potential to lead Macedonia through this.

[Brygian Seed]

We always must put these discussions in perspective. Macedonia is a puppet of the US as are many other countries that are in a far better political and economic position. Pointing fingers at Macedonians is a bit narrow minded; they simply do not have the kind of power we associated with a 'free' and 'democratic' world. If 2001 has taught as anything it is that the US is the 'guardian' of Macedonia.

[indigen]

Anyone, Anyone who dares to even THINK about talking of name change is a traitor to my eyes and my country. I will refuse to vote for Gruevski and Ivanov again (i did vote for both and I am ashamed of it) and I will never ever vote or support anyone who thinks they have the right to talk about our name. To me those deserve a lifetime in jail, in a black hole with no visitors.
Once again anyone who supports these talks must be removed immediately, we must pull out of any chit chat about our name and stick it to the pederi Greeks once and forever.
If we don't have the jajca or the heroes to stand up and do that than WE DESERVE everything that is coming our way.

Spoken like a TRUE MACEDONIAN PATRIOT should!

Bravo, Jankovska! Don't ever lose this fighting spirit!

Cheers

[indigen]

We always must put these discussions in perspective. Macedonia is a puppet of the US as are many other countries that are in a far better political and economic position. Pointing fingers at Macedonians is a bit narrow minded; they simply do not have the kind of power we associated with a 'free' and 'democratic' world. If 2001 has taught as anything it is that the US is the 'guardian' of Macedonia.

No excuses for TREASON AND CAPITULATION! If someone steals your property/house, you WILL ALWAYS have a legal and moral right to reclaim it but you will forfeit that right if you "WILLINGLY" sign and transfer title deeds (ownership rights).

Secondly, armed sedition against the state constitutes HIGH TREASON and is punishable by death in countries such the USA. In Macedonia the criminal conspirators are turned into MPs, Ministers, state functionaries and army and police, this clearly is more than ABSURD.

Here is an interesting article from the election campaign in 2002 where L. Georgiveski (and by implication the whole DPMNE party, of which Gruevski was a key part) speaks "candidly" about role of NATO & KFOR and how they supported, armed and supplied the UCK terrorists in 2001 war in order to force Macedonia to capitulate. The article states that he said this at rallies in Vinica and Kochani but did not mention it at following town rallies. Did they shut him up and was he telling the whole truth?

МИТИНЗИ НА ВМРО-ДПМНЕ И ЛП
Георгиевски ги обвини генералите на НАТО за поддршка на терористите
На нашите противници од СДСМ им порачуваме да престанат со лешинарската политика и кога е најтешко и најкрваво на Македонија да # продаваат дневна политика - рече лидерот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ



Симпатизерите на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ во Кочани бурно ги поздравија нападите од Георгиевски врз НАТО и САД

Лидерот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, Љубчо Георгиевски на предизборните митинзи во Виница и во Кочани ги обвини НАТО и неговите генерали дека отворено ги поддржувале албанските терористи во минатогодишната војна против Македонија, со цел нашата земја да капитулира.

- Минатата година не се боревме само со качачките банди организирани од Косово и од Албанија, со Косовскиот заштитен корпус финансиран од ОН, туку и со нашите сојузници во НАТО, кои им продаваа информации на терористите. Се боревме против непринципиелната коалиција меѓу генералите на НАТО, КФОР и на терористичките лидери - рече Георгиевски.

Според него, минатата година хеликоптерите на САД и на НАТО на терористите им носеле оружје - проектили "стингер" и минофрлачи. Тие ги опремувале терористите со сателитски врски и техники, МПРИ им давала информации на злосторничките банди за нашата армија, а НАТО пропуштал цели бригади на КЗК преку границата да влезат да се борат против македонските сили.

- Додека на терористите им делеа оружје, одеа во Украина за да издејствуваат нам да не ни дава оружје. Тоа го правеа за да капитулира земјава и да потпише договор за капитулација. Тоа злосторство минатата година го гледавме, но молчевме. Повеќе не молчиме, зашто денес повторно гледаме како убиваат наши полицајци и киднапираат наши граѓани. На светот ќе му кажеме дека ние лани се боревме со НАТО, со американските генерали, со качачките банди и со нивните криминални здруженија - рече лидерот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

He states that they saw what happened but remained silent, but now they will speak out. IMO, remaining silent and capitulating equates to high treason, even more so when your are the Prime Minister.

Тој додаде дека во случајот со киднапираните Македонци нема намера да ги повикува командантите на ОНА, туку ќе ги повика вистинските команданти - Џејмс Пердју и Питер Фејт - кои цело време ги командуваа масакрите во нашата земја и управуваа со УЧК и со крвавото сценарио врз нашата земја.

- На нашите противници од СДСМ им порачуваме да престанат со лешинарската политика и кога е најтешко и најкрваво на Македонија да и продаваат дневна политика. Тие за време на војната цело време не кодошеа, ги продадоа нашите команданти пред странците и собираа докази некого да испратат во Хаг и цело време само ги интересираа предвремени избори - потенцира лидерот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

Пред граѓаните на Пехчево, Берово и Делчево Георгиевски со ниту еден збор не го спомна однесувањето на меѓународната заедница. Главните поенти во неговите истапи беше да ги споредат резултатите што ги постигнале владите на СДСМ и на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

- Пред четири години Македонија беше во агонија. Ние речиси завршивме со економските реформи, ги рестартиравме загубарите, градиме станови, обновуваме училишта, амбуланти, духовни светилишта, ја враќаме довербата во банките, враќаме пензии, заробени девизи - нагласи Георгиевски.

Носителот на листата во третата ИЕ, Љубе Бошковски рече дека Владата покажала дека може да ја профилира Македонија во модерна европска држава.

- Македонија од минатата година ги врати гордоста и достоинството. Повеќе никој не може да го урне македонскиот народ и да ја доведе во прашање сувереноста на Македонија - рече Бошковски.

(Б.Ѓ.- Д.Ј.)
Број 1940 понеделник, 02 септември 2002

http://star.dnevnik.com.mk/default.aspx?pBroj=1940&stID=6983

[Brygian Seed]

Thanks for the read indigen. Unfortunately, most people ultimately have a price to 'turn'. For some its a seat in government for others its few hundred million green ones.

[indigen]

Thanks for the read indigen. Unfortunately, most people ultimately have a price to 'turn'. For some its a seat in government for others its few hundred million green ones.

While people may be "turned", I do not think there are many (if any) nations, except for the "Macedonian", that would allow to pass such anti state and treasonous acts without causing a military coup or popular revolution. Po moe viduvanje, makedonskata nacija ne e dovolno zdrela i osvestena za da si gi zapazi nacionalnite i drzhavnite interesi. Treba da rabotime mnogu za podignuvanje na taa makedonska svest!

[Jankovska]

The IRA and the Loyalists formed a Government together we had no choice, VMRO has formed coalitions with pretty much all the minority parties. We are discussing the name issue here remember that, read what i highlighted spitting on somebody who has done alot for the country who has had the chance to change our name on a number of occasions and hasnt done so, are you another Gruevski hater???

Sure everyone has the right to an opinion but open accusations of calling somebody a traitor when they are clearly not is simply pointless and stupid.

Shut up Prolet, you are talking shit. If you don't have the jajca like I said before than support everyone who is playing titara with our name. Just bend over and take it

[Risto the Great]

Gruevski has stood on the fence for a very long time.
His feet must be a little sore by now.
I am yet to see how he has let Macedonia down so far. He has been the least worst Macedonia has had over the last 20 odd years. He can do better.

[Jankovska]

He hasn't imporved it either so what is the point. Maybe we should learn from the past 20 od years and stop wasting time with people with no balls.

What makes it worse is he was given the chance on a e silver plate, the NATO VETO was his shoot and he didn't take it. So i can with ease put him in the same group of traitors like Crvenkovski, Georgievski etc.
How is he different?

[Prolet]

Shut up Prolet, you are talking shit. If you don't have the jajca like I said before than support everyone who is playing titara with our name. Just bend over and take it

Jankovska, Its not as simple as you put it, we are a country of 2 million people you make it sound like we are the strongest country. You talk tough with 8000 professional soldiers??

What makes it worse is he was given the chance on a e silver plate, the NATO VETO was his shoot and he didn't take it. So i can with ease put him in the same group of traitors like Crvenkovski, Georgievski etc.
How is he different?

When has he ever called for a name change?? These two are traitors, Gruevski is a champion judge him when he's done something against the country and yes the Nato Veto he had the balls to take Greece to the ICJ court so he did do something.

Ne go chepkaj Grujo!

[Jankovska]

It's very simple Prolet because we are poor and powerless already. Which part is hard to understand? If we pull out you think Greece will attack us?So the amount of soldiers we have is really irrelevent because it will never come to us having to use them.
Secondly Ljubco was the biggest 'patriot' when in power and so was Crvenkovski, they didn't need to be looking for points, they were in power like Grujo is now. Ljubco was the leader of all patrioti and nacionalisti. When he lost power he showed his true colors.
He took the to court? Wow that is fucking scary. While he pisses about around courts who have NO power to make Greece do anything, we are still where we are, under pressure being called every name under the sun.i have no respect for Gruevski because he is a coward who is in coalition with a terrorist.

[Brygian Seed]

While people may be "turned", I do not think there are many (if any) nations, except for the "Macedonian", that would allow to pass such anti state and treasonous acts without causing a military coup or popular revolution. Po moe viduvanje, makedonskata nacija ne e dovolno zdrela i osvestena za da si gi zapazi nacionalnite i drzhavnite interesi. Treba da rabotime mnogu za podignuvanje na taa makedonska svest!

Agreed indegen! However, my guest is that the majority on this forum are like me, living elsewhere and not in the Macedonia and have other concerns, i.e. financial. The question I have been asking myself for years is "what can I personally do to change the situation in Macedonia?" I have no problem sharing thoughts and ideas regarding Macedonia, however ultimately it's our actions in the correct situations that will bring change; that starts and finishes in Macedonia. A small example, a few weeks ago I turned up to a demonstration in Skopje and there were only 20-30 people present, of which 10 were people I dragged down to participate who would normally be sitting in a cafic.

So further from your point, what can we do that has not been done or is not in process of being done? Start a new forum topic and lets go from there!

[indigen]

Gruevski has stood on the fence for a very long time.
His feet must be a little sore by now.
I am yet to see how he has let Macedonia down so far. He has been the least worst Macedonia has had over the last 20 odd years. He can do better.

RTG, Lets examine some points you make:
1.Gruevski has stood on the fence for a very long time.
He was part of DPMNE when Georgiveski carried out a bugaroman putch in 1997, they then removed the 16-ray Macedonian Sun as part of its party emblem and changed the party constitution in order to remove any patriotic passages that annoyed Greece and Bulgaria. DPMNE having taken power in 1998, he was part of the government that unleashed a HEAVY anti-Macedonian bugaroman propaganda war in all spheres that underpin Macedonian identity and cultural heritage. With all this he went along and never once publicly opposed such anti-Macedonian actions whilst others such as Zmejkovski formed a breakaway party and openly opposed these treasonous policies and actions. At the very least it makes him a collaborator of the bugaroman DPMNE party hierarchy.

Secondly, he was a government minister in 2001 that endorsed, VOTED for and implemented the TREASONOUS "FRAMEWORK AGREEMENT"! In 2001-2002 ALL Ramkovisti were considered as TRAITORS by anyone who had an ounce of Macedonian patriotic consciousness. That was my position then and so it remains today.

That is just for starters and others can fill in the rest.

[Pelister]

Jankovska, Its not as simple as you put it, we are a country of 2 million people you make it sound like we are the strongest country. You talk tough with 8000 professional soldiers??


When has he ever called for a name change?? These two are traitors, Gruevski is a champion judge him when he's done something against the country and yes the Nato Veto he had the balls to take Greece to the ICJ court so he did do something.

Ne go chepkaj Grujo!

Please, spare me the "its not that simple" linet - they are stong, we are weak arguement. How are we weak ? And how are they strong ? This is another way of saying lets keep our heads in the clouds, muddied and foggy, instead of thinking clearly and rationally about what we are actually doing.

Gruevski is a traitor, and there are three reasons for that. 1. Gruevski has agreed to several name changes and has indicated that much in his press releases, and has argued that the Greeks are not prepared to accept these name changes. 2. The Macedonians want the negotiations to stop and yet he continues. 3. He never actually asked the Macedonians whetherh they want their identity negotiated. He just assumed he could. And yet he continues.

[indigen]

Agreed indegen! However, my guest is that the majority on this forum are like me, living elsewhere and not in the Macedonia and have other concerns, i.e. financial. The question I have been asking myself for years is "what can I personally do to change the situation in Macedonia?" I have no problem sharing thoughts and ideas regarding Macedonia, however ultimately it's our actions in the correct situations that will bring change; that starts and finishes in Macedonia. A small example, a few weeks ago I turned up to a demonstration in Skopje and there were only 20-30 people present, of which 10 were people I dragged down to participate who would normally be sitting in a cafic.

So further from your point, what can we do that has not been done or is not in process of being done? Start a new forum topic and lets go from there!

Its a HUGE task as our patriotic "intelligentsia" is non-existent. There are many persons who fit the profile as a member of the "intelligentsia" but they are very lacking in Macedonian consciousness and political ideology to lead a popular movement and articulate its aims and objectives, IMO. Even the very minor positive steps that the authorities in RM are undertaking, such as the erection of some statues of Macedonian heroes and historical figures that will boost national pride and self-confidence and tourism, are being ridiculed by some Macedonian "patriots" that should know better.

IMO, the cause is in the hands of the younger generations but they need to get their Macedonian ideology in order first before any minimal progress will be made. The older generations can (and should) assist in that endeavour.

One glaring ideological flaw I see is the continued perpetuation of the myth that Macedonia somehow derives its name from a constitution (1991/2001-UCK wishlist) and thus parrot-like our "intelligentsia" mindlessly keeps repeating the term "constitutional name" "(ustavnoto ime") ad nauseum. Makedonija ima drzhavno ime shto poteknuva mnogu porano od "Ustavot" na ustavnicite. :-)