Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Soldier of Macedon]

If we enter as Macedonians in NATO and the EU, we will be Macedonians in NATO and the EU. Otherwise, we don't enter at all, especially under blackmail. This is how I read Gruevski's statement.

YouTube - Prime minister Nikola Gruevski - Macedonia - Greece

We cannot delete ourself as a nation. We are Macedonians, we want to become a member of the EU as Macedonians.

How can one read it in any other way?

[Bill77]

"Republic of Northern Macedonia" solution to the name, "Macedonian" to identity, language - Greek paper

Athens, December 14 (MIA) - Washington suggests the name "The Republic of Northern Macedonia" as a solution to the name dispute between Skopje and Athens and the use of the term "Macedonian" to define the identity and language, Elefterotipia daily reports on Monday in an article titled "Americans prepare a trap for FYROM's name".

It's time to put an end to the name row and to realise the importance of its possible settlement and of Macedonia's accession to Euro-Atlantic structures, the newspaper says citing American diplomats.




http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/Ma...243/index.html

Just recieved mail from a friend who lives in Macedonia and sstated that this is just another lie from the Greek media in particulor "Elefterotipia daily"

His reply was this,
Quote: "Yesterday, our medias (try Sitel,Kanal 5 official web sites) released info that the Greek newspaper Elefterotipos (not sure if I spelled that right, if not, try Elephterotipos or some other variation) Americans are seeing only one solution: name change without touching anything else-identity,language...etc.

After this info was released, the Americans claimed that the information was false. It can either mean that:

1) Greeks are lying as usual
2) Americans are trying to input a suggestion on a very very "shady" way.

I really hope that 1) is the correct answer. I'll discuss this further in an hour or so. Also I'll look for the info. In the meantime, use the web sites I suggested."


i will get back to you guys when i confirm these lies further.

[makedonin]

The Greeks are now all Macedonians, at least acording to this:

Македонскиот идентитет е дел од идентитетот на секој Грк и за тоа нема да преговараме, порачува грчкиот алтернативен министер за надворешни работи Друцас

Официјална Атина инсистира на преговори само за името и смета дека е грешка вклучувањето на прашањата за јазикот и за идентитетот во преговорите, зашто македонскиот идентитет му припаѓа на секој Грк. Грција ќе бара амандмани на македонскиот устав ако тоа е неопходно за да се реализира формулата „едно име за сите употреби“. Ваквиот став го изнесе грчкиот алтернативен министер за надворешни работи Димитрис Друцас во интервју за „Прото тема“. Друцас ја зацементира грчката црвена линија за името на земјава, а на прашањето дали и тие би прифатиле „македонски“ на латиница за јазикот, вели:

- Посредникот Метју Нимиц во 2005 година не требаше да ги вклучи другите прашања во својот предлог, а уште полошо беше што претходната влада на Караманлис се согласи да дискутира за нив - вели Друцас.
Ваквата дискусија, според Друцас, му послужила само на премиерот Никола Груевски за да може да го кочи напредокот во преговорите и постигнувањето решение.

- Груевски сака да го монополизира името Македонија. Јасно велам дека македонскиот идентитет е дел од идентитетот на секој Грк. За тоа нема да преговараме и добро е за ова да се чуе не само во Скопје, туку и во Њујорк и секаде каде што треба да се слушне - порачува Друцас.

На прашањето дали ќе инсистираат на промена на македонскиот устав или решението за името ќе биде само за меѓународна употреба, Друцас дециден дека кога ќе се постигне решение, тие ќе инсистираат на негова целосна примена.

- Нема да дозволиме ниту најмала нејаснотија. За Грција е важна ефикасна имплементација на „ерга омнес“ име. Ако тоа значи амандмани на уставот, на тоа ќе инсистираме - вели Друцас за „Прото тема“.

Од друга страна, под наслов „Американците подготвуваат замка за името на ПЈРМ“, весникот „Елефтеротипија“ пишува дека Вашингтон препорачува „Република Северна Македонија“ како решение за спорот за името меѓу Скопје и Атина, а употребата на терминот „македонски“ (со нормален превод на странските јазици, на пример, Macedonian на англиски) за одредувањето на идентитетот и јазикот. Весникот се повикува на изјави на високи американски дипломати, според кои, време е да се стави крај на спорот за името и да се сфати значењето што би ги имале неговото решавање и пристапувањето на Македонија кон евроатлантските структури.

„Американците вршат притисок за решавање на прашањето преку посредникот на ОН, Нимиц. Американскиот план предвидува новото име ‘Република Северна Македонија’ да помине на Советот за безбедност на ОН, кој би дал и препорака тоа да се користи од сите држави-членки на Светската организација во билатералните релации со Македонија. За идентитетот и за јазикот е предвидено „тивко решение“, односно нивното одредување како македонски да се впише во регистерот на ОН, без неопходно претходно одобрение од Грција. Атина тоа практично и не би можела да го сопре“, пишува „Елефтеротипија“.

google translated:

Macedonian identity is part of the identity of each Greel and will not negotiate, tells Greek Alternate Foreign Minister Drucas

Official Athens insists on negotiating only the name and considers it a mistake inclusion of issues of language and identity in the negotiations, because the Macedonian identity belongs to every Greek. Greece will seek amendments to the Macedonian constitution if it is necessary to realize the formula "one name for all uses. This view was expressed Greek Alternate Foreign Minister Dimitris Drucas in an interview for "Proto Thema". Drucas January cemented Greek red line for the country's name, and asked whether they would accept the "Macedonian" of the Latin language, says:

- Mediator Matthew Nimetz in 2005 were not supposed to include other issues in his proposal, but even worse was that the previous government of Karamanlis agreed to discuss them - says Drucas.
This discussion, according Drucas, has served only to Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski to be able to slows progress in the negotiations and reaching a solution.

- Gruevski wants to monopolizira name Macedonia. Clearly say that Macedonian identity is part of the identity of each Greek. For it will not negotiate and it is good for this to be heard not only in Skopje, but also in New York and wherever you need to hear - tells Drucas.

Asked whether he would insist on changes to the Macedonian constitution or settlement of the name will be only for international use, Drucas clear that when we reach a solution, they will insist on its full implementation.

- Will not allow even the slightest ambiguity. Greece is important for effective implementation of "erga omnes" name. If it means amending the constitution, it will insist - says Drucas for "Proto Thema".

On the other hand, under the headline "Americans prepare traps for the name of FYROM," the newspaper Eleftherotypia writes that Washington recommends Republic of Northern Macedonia "as a solution to the name dispute between Skopje and Athens, and the use of the term" Macedonian "(with normal translation of foreign languages, for example, Macedonian English) for determining the identity and language. The paper calls for statements of senior U.S. diplomats, according to which, it is time to end the name dispute and to understand the meaning that would have had his settlement and accession of Macedonia to NATO structures.

"The Americans are pushing to resolve the issue through the UN mediator Nimetz. U.S. plan envisions the new name 'Republic of Northern Macedonia' to pass the Security Council of UN, which would made a recommendation and it is used by all Member States of the World Organization of bilateral relations with Macedonia. Of identity and language is provided "quiet decision", ie their determination as Macedonian to be entered in the register of the UN, without the necessary prior approval from Greece. Athens and it practically could not stop, "wrote Eleftherotypia.

taken from dnevnik

[makedonin]

I don't have the resources to check dnevniks story, but if this is true, I conclude that Idiocracy has no end.

[Bill77]

From Kanal 5


From the U.S. embassy in Skopje said that the published information is speculation, which refused to comment on. Diplomatic sources for Channel 5 said that the U.S. administration maintains not to interfere in the dispute, and the two countries to agree on mutually acceptable solution under UN mediation. The Greek side did not want to comment on alleged U.S. plan, because the contents of the negotiations were confidential.

http://www.kanal5.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=37&eventId=56092

[Soldier of Macedon]

Maybe the Greek newspaper spoke of - "Republic of Northern Macedonia" solution to the name, "Macedonian" to identity, language - because it was trying to size up the response of the Greek public and political scene. Maybe they are considering this as a bi-lateral solution themselves, because for international use nothing but Republic of Macedonia will be acceptable to the Macedonians.

Macedonian identity is part of the identity of each Greek and will not negotiate, tells Greek Alternate Foreign Minister Drucas

Every Greek can be a Macedonian, but no Macedonian will ever be Greek.

Which Greek in the Peloponnese, the Islands, and the rest of the territory south of Macedonia feels that their identity is Macedonian? It's complete idiocy, and quite frankly some desperate statements by this poser.

[makedonin]

Some Idiotic thing is going on here!

I just found out this stupid site.

In it's description it goes as if it is some Project,here is it translated by Google:

Project to clarify the controversy and the wider so-called name issue between Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic, the Republic of Macedonia *

Under this project, a working group should be established which will consist of each half of professionally suitable persons from the Hellenic Republic and the Republic of Macedonia *. Also, further, skilled persons are invited to participate in this project.

The working group would prepare a proposal for binding under international law clarifying the name dispute and the enlarged Macedon question that is accepted by all parties and the latest findings from the science on this issue into account.

Basis for developing a solution to the name dispute is the "proposal to resolve the name issue of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" from 04.02.2009 by Andreas Schwarz. This proposal will not prejudge any final outcome for this project and serves as food for thought.

Another objective of this project is to promote understanding between people from the Hellenic Republic and the Republic of Macedonia * as well as the development of friendly relations between them.

Coordination:

Andreas Schwarz

([email protected])

Goran Popcanovski

([email protected])

Link here

they even have published some document which they hold as some proposal it is found here


Here is a google translation:

Proposal to resolve the name issue between the
E.J.R. Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic
By Goran Popcanovski and Andreas Schwarz.
The current differences between the E.J.R. Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic in the so-called
Name dispute may, in consideration of different approaches (international law, sovereign rights,
Territoriality, etc.) are settled. These are all relevant issues,
which have led to these differences into account, and worked up as part of a
internationally binding treaty between the two sides finally and definitively clarified.
The original so-called name issue, therefore, includes not only the question of the state name
the E.J.R. Macedonia, but also questions related aspects such as the overall story
Macedonia, the temporal correlation and the identity of the Macedonians in the FYR
Macedonia. It is within this solution between the Greek territorial region
Macedonia as part of the Hellenic Republic and FYR Macedonia as a subject of international law,
personnel between the Greek Macedonians as part of the Greek nation and the ethnic
Macedonians as separate nation and in time between the respective shares of the
Total distinguished history of Macedonia.
The name issue between the E.J.R. Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic, in our
Considers the expression of a new issue of Macedon, the Macedonians, the classic question
has overlaid and thus the result leads to an enlarged Macedon question. While
classical Macedon question is solved in essence, the question concerns the new Macedon
Clarify the physical meaning of the terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonians" for human,
territorial and temporal criteria. This clarification must be based on scientific
Intelligence and international law and be implemented in accordance with the policy.
The key points to clarify the issue and extended Macedonia to solve the resulting
resulting name dispute are as follows:
1. The E.J.R. Macedonia is under the name "Republic of Macedonia" by all states, all
international institutions and organizations, such as the United Nations,
where E.J.R. Macedon member is recognized. This eliminates the provisional
Name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", under which the FYR
Macedonia was admitted on 08.04.1993 in the United Nations.
2. In the bilateral relations between the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic
is different from the first point, a different name be used. Up to a
possible agreement on an appropriate name is at the request of the Hellenic
Republic, the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is used.
3. The definition of property "Makedon," is defined as a non-exclusive to one side.
To ensure a clear distinction must be in each denomination is a
Country code matters, as for example Makedon (MK) or Makedon (GR). If this
Marking is not possible, another, clearly recognizable differentiator
be present, which the property "Makedon," is undoubtedly related.
4. The members of Macedonia in the nation (citizens of the Republic of Macedonia)
be called "Macedonians (FYROM)". The members of the cultural nation, Macedonia
are referred to as "ethnic Macedonians". A clear differentiation of the
Greek Macedonians is given so as to identify them primarily as Greeks.
5. In Macedonia is of the ethnic Macedonians spoken language as
"Makedon (MK)" means.
6. An independent expert commission, composed of Macedonians, Greek and
international experts, convened by the United Nations to the conflict
to discuss historical issues such as the extended Macedon question scientifically
speak according to their results and prepare recommendations made by
two states are officially recognized. The United Nations defines the
Membership of international representatives in an independent commission of experts
and supervise the work of these regularly. The representatives of Macedonia and
Greek side will be determined by each country. The commission of experts shall
based on its findings, the respective shares of the Hellenic Republic and FYR
Macedonia to the overall history of Macedonia and borders that establish, where possible,
from each other. Also, the relationship of today's Macedonia is the ancient
Macedonia evaluated the following criteria:
a. What type was the ancient Macedonia and were the ancient Macedonians?
b. What is the nature today of Macedonia and the Macedonians today?
c. What is the relationship of ancient Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians are
to today's Macedonia and the Macedonians today?
7. The E.J.R. Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic's agreement in principle on
that the ancient Macedonia is not identical with today's Macedonia is and therefore each
start substantive clarification of the dispute on behalf of Macedonia in the modern sense must.
A possible partial identity of today with the ancient Macedonia Macedonia remains
unaffected and is in accordance with Item 6 of to be clarified.
8. Until within the Special Commission for a final clarification of the relationship of the FYR
Macedonia has been found on ancient Macedonia, FYR waived Macedonia
officially all reference to the ancient Macedonians.
9. The E.J.R. Macedonia to rise to a different binding in international law and
Decision of a commission of experts not object if the Greek
Republic refers to the ancient Macedonia.
10. The minority ethnic Macedonians in Greece is recognized as such.
Elementary minority rights according to international standards of the Hellenic
Republic guarantees and monitors and ensures compliance.
11. The Greek Greeks living in the region of Macedonia, which is due to the
Territoriality principle is also described as Macedonians, are called "Greek Macedonians"
known.
12. The E.J.R. Macedonia does neither territorial claims on the Greek region
Macedonia, still on the Greek part of Macedonia history and culture.
The implementation of the items listed shall be by appropriate international and
internal (information) Politics (media, education, official publications) of
Sides of the E.J.R. Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic on the basis of an international
Contract. To coordinate the implementation of the international agreement and to clarify
open questions will be set up a joint Council, the parity, of representatives of the
Hellenic Republic and FYR Macedonia as well as from other independent members
is composed.
A unilateral change of name of E.J.R. Macedonia, as in other proposals for solving the
Proposed name issue, the differences due to the extended Makedonische question as
Cause not resolve the name dispute effectively against each other and therefore the solution of the
so-called "name dispute inappropriate. Our proposed solution is more effective and
suited to solve the name dispute. Therefore, this solution represents a real alternative, which
should be sought by all parties.
Stuttgart and Wuppertal, 24 July 2009, Goran Popcanovski and Andreas Schwarz.

http://www.makedonisch-griechisches-projekt.eu/docs/solution.pdf

I wonder on whose authority is this Goran Popcanovski acting?

I sent him a email!

[email protected]

http://www.makedonisch-griechisches-projekt.eu

[TrueMacedonian]

Whoever this bum is I wonder why he would do this to his own countrys name;

Republic of Macedonia *

Hey Goran if you have the balls sign up on here and let's have a real debate. Not one with fixed questions for fixed answers.

[Risto the Great]

Silly stuff, please keep us informed Makedonin.

[Risto the Great]

Well i can personaly live with that. In particulor "No need for global change to those who have already recognised Macedonia by the constitutional name"

Bill.
Really?
Northern Macedonia?
Would I then be a Northern Macedonian from Northern Greece?

[Spartan]

Youd be a Northern Macedonian, from Southern Macedonia
I think??
This is getting to complicated for me.

[indigen]

If we enter as Macedonians in NATO and the EU, we will be Macedonians in NATO and the EU. Otherwise, we don't enter at all, especially under blackmail. This is how I read Gruevski's statement.

We cannot delete ourself as a nation. We are Macedonians, we want to become a member of the EU as Macedonians.

How can one read it in any other way?

How different is this from Cervenkovski's position on identity and language guarantee? Not much, IMO. State name is not mentioned (as I have not seen the video clip and don't have the bandwidth to waste on Youtube, I am commenting only on what you quoted) and it appears that they are willing to change it, as they were for NATO entry.

Secondly, once the state name is changed the naming conventions will be applied to the people, without a doubt. Has anyone asked how is it possible for Microsoft to rename the Macedonian language into F---Macedonian, Microsoft being based in USA, which recognises Macedonia by her rightful name?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bill.
Really?
Northern Macedonia?
Would I then be a Northern Macedonian from Northern Greece?

RtG, the proposal refers to the Macedonian state as 'Northern Macedonia' but the Macedonian people and language as 'Macedonian'. If that was the case for a bilateral deal, where Macedonians in both Macedonia and Greece would remain 'Macedonians', would it be acceptable?

[Risto the Great]

SoM, it is not even Bi-Lateral. It is saying some countries can call us one thing, others can call us another. As a Macedonian from occupied Macedonia it is even more offensive to be a Northern Macedonian from Northern Greece.

Macedonian people as Macedonian is a joke. If the country is called Northern Macedonia, get ready for a new round of $130 million Greek spending to convince the world otherwise.

[Brygian Seed]

If the name is changed it will all snowball! You'll see the Bulgarians jump in on the language, leading to the Serbs making further attacks on the Church. Also, changing the name DOES NOT guaranty acceptance into the EU. It's always "resolve the issue with Athens, then we will talk". Doe anyone know if Bulgaria has veto power?