Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[indigen]

The Declaration and Appeal are very much in line with how the Macedonian Diaspora feels in my opinion.

I don't think there is consensus on following point/s:

10. ....The Macedonians are supporting the filling of the complaint in the International Court in Hague against Republic of Greece, and in related with fulfilment of the Article 11 from the Macedonian-Greek Temporary Agreement from September 13th, 1995.

So, it seems that Todor Petrov and his WMC (SMK) are now giving legitimacy to something they previously considered as nul and void due to its illegal implementation. I would say WMC (TP) are acting as a support group for the DPMNE government and are playing politics rather than taking a consistent principled political stand on issues such as the 1995 "Accord" between the 1st and 2nd sides.

APPEAL

for apologies by the Great Britain for the defeat and the victims

of the democratic forces, the Greek antifascist and the Macedonians

after the World War II in the Civil War between 1946 to 1949

(1) We appeal to the British Prime Minister to publicly apologies in the name of Great Britain for the defeat and the victims of the democratic forces, Greek antifascists and the Macedonians after the WW II in the Civil War in Greece between 1946 to 1949, because the British help in the win of Monarchic Fascists, as well as the dropping of the first napalm bombs on the Macedonians on Gramos and Vicho, as an expression of the victory of the democratic values in new Europe and the defeat of the Fascism in the WW II!

This appeal appears to me to be rather opportunistic because it ignores (by bending the truth) to seek an apology from the USA, which in 1947 became the main western backer and co-ordinator of the monarcho-fascist war effort. The US forces perfected napalm bombing by using it on the Macedonians.

[Brygian Seed]

IT IS CLEAR THAT MACEDONIA IS EXPERIENCING THE 'THIRD BALKAN WAR'.

Instead of weapons, words are used. One neighbour is aiming to destroy Macedonia's ethnicity, the other its history and the third its spiritual and religious identity. What 'they' didn't success in 1912-13 they are attempting know, whilst the world once again watches.

The 'powers of the world' demand that the rest of the world use diplomacy to resolve their problems, whilst they themselves do so by war and physical force. In doing so breaking the laws and rules demanded of other countries.

When will Macedonia realise that it has no true friends and words have yielded very little over the last 18 years

[Pelister]

IT IS CLEAR THAT MACEDONIA IS EXPERIENCING THE 'THIRD BALKAN WAR'.

Instead of weapons, words are used. One neighbour is aiming to destroy Macedonia's ethnicity, the other its history and the third its spiritual and religious identity. What 'they' didn't success in 1912-13 they are attempting know, whilst the world once again watches.

The 'powers of the world' demand that the rest of the world use diplomacy to resolve their problems, whilst they themselves do so by war and physical force. In doing so breaking the laws and rules demanded of other countries.

When will Macedonia realise that it has no true friends and words have yielded very little over the last 18 years

Try and explain that to the UMD board. Better still try and get them to renounce the negotiations if you can. I have been unsuccesful in that regard.

But I could not agree with you more. That is precisely what is going on. It is in fact a state of war.

The attitude and strategy of Greece and Co. is this: If they can steal our history, then they can take away our identity.

We are being attack from all sides.

[julie]

Try and explain that to the UMD board. Better still try and get them to renounce the negotiations if you can. I have been unsuccesful in that regard.

But I could not agree with you more. That is precisely what is going on. It is in fact a state of war.

The attitude and strategy of Greece and Co. is this: If they can steal our history, then they can take away our identity.

We are being attack from all sides.

Oh yes and we have been attacked from all sides since the partitioning of our country.

[Pelister]

Oh yes and we have been attacked from all sides since the partitioning of our country.

It is the ideological attack that bothers me most.

What I mean by that is the information being produced by the Greek State. The information they produce is usually made for outsiders (i.e., the West, Australians), who would not be aware of the local realities. The information the produce is designed specifically to spread an idea, and that idea is that we were "Slavs" with no identity, or with no idea who we were.

The origin of this specific "idea" actually comes from a Serbian, named Cvijic. In the early 20th century he proposed that the "Macedonians" were neither Serbians, nor Bulgarians, nor Greece, but added that neither were they Macedonians. That they were just "Slavs". The Greeks seized this idea and ran with it.

There is another ideological attack, similar to the one mentioned above but slightly different.

The second attack is to call all these Macedonian-speakers by the terms "Bulgarian" and the term "Exarchate". There are a whole range of reasons why this suited the Greeks. The main reason was this. If they could write out the Macedonians, they could write out the violence committed against us.

More generally, purpose of using such colonial classifications is to conceal the Macedonians. It is to very simply make sure we disappear from the story ... from the picture. To remove all traces of us physically (such as the destruction of graves, churches, literature ...etc), but to write us out as well. That means providing as little information about who we are as possible, and destroying all information that challenge the colonial campaign to eradicate us. This is why the results of the 1929 census for Macedonia were destroyed, for example. They are attempting to write us out of as much local and international history as possible by using these "classifications". There are no mention of the Macedonians, and they want us to vanish entirely from all historical records.

[Bill77]

"Republic of Northern Macedonia" solution to the name, "Macedonian" to identity, language - Greek paper

Athens, December 14 (MIA) - Washington suggests the name "The Republic of Northern Macedonia" as a solution to the name dispute between Skopje and Athens and the use of the term "Macedonian" to define the identity and language, Elefterotipia daily reports on Monday in an article titled "Americans prepare a trap for FYROM's name".

It's time to put an end to the name row and to realise the importance of its possible settlement and of Macedonia's accession to Euro-Atlantic structures, the newspaper says citing American diplomats.

Americans exert pressure over a solution to the issue through UN envoy Matthew Nimetz. The American plan envisages the new name "The Republic of Northern Macedonia" to be approved by the UN Security Council and to recommend the name to be used by UN members in bilateral relations with Macedonia. A "silent solution" is envisaged for the identity and language - their definition as Macedonian to be entered in the UN register without previous approval from Greece. In fact, Athens is not able to stop it, reports Elefterotipia.

Learning from past mistakes, the new US administration plans to refute Greece's arguments before NATO and EU summits in 2010, says the newspaper stressing that Washington pressed Greece during the Bucharest NATO summit, but it did not result in compromise and Athens vetoed Macedonia's accession to the Alliance.


How does this sit with everyone? evan though it is not perfect, i am not to concerned with the name Northern Macedonia, which will imply there is a southern and eastern and west Macedonia. Its the truth. But most importantly, our identity and language will be Rightfuly known as Macedonian.

http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/Macedonia/568243/index.html

[Brygian Seed]

Any name change is just not acceptable! Presenting it as an even an option is rather aggravating.

However, I was in Macedonian recently and was informed from a reasonably informed individual that Skopje and Athens have essentially agreed on:

(i) 'The Republic of Northern Macedonia'
(ii) No need for global change to those who have already recognised Macedonia by the constitutional name
(iii) No change to the name of the language
(iv) No change to ethnicity
(v) No internal change to the constitutional name

There were some other pieces of information that described the intensity of the discussions and the pressures placed on the Gruevski. Basically, talk of party change at the next election, 'corruption' claims to turn public opinion, and even forcible removal from power i.e its already happen once.

[Bill77]

Any name change is just not acceptable! Presenting it as an even an option is rather aggravating.

However, I was in Macedonian recently and was informed from a reasonably informed individual that Skopje and Athens have essentially agreed on:

(i) 'The Republic of Northern Macedonia'
(ii) No need for global change to those who have already recognised Macedonia by the constitutional name
(iii) No change to the name of the language
(iv) No change to ethnicity
(v) No internal change to the constitutional name

There were some other pieces of information that described the intensity of the discussions and the pressures placed on the Gruevski. Basically, talk of party change at the next election, 'corruption' claims to turn public opinion, and even forcible removal from power i.e its already happen once.

Well i can personaly live with that. In particulor "No need for global change to those who have already recognised Macedonia by the constitutional name"

[Risto the Great]

Well the USA has come out and said this in recent news.
I can live with none of the points raised except (iii)- (v). Why? Because it is not the will of the Macedonians. It is a compromise that has been forced upon them. Points (iii)- (v) are offensive in a different way, like I need permission for this .... crap.

My name is Chris.

Someone tells me I will be called "Northern Chris" from now on. I can still call myself Chris and anyone else who calls me Chris now can still call me Chris.

All this pressure from a broke little country called Greece who is losing favour from within the EU. Wait it out Macedonia, wait it out.

[Sovius]

The whole “Name Issue” is simply the bloodless continuation of what began during the Balkan Wars. Any name besides what the people of Macedonia have already decided on would be a capitulation of the worst kind. It would say to every single person in the world, “We give up. We’re not entitled to what the rest of you have come to take for granted”. It sickens me as an American citizen that my government would suggest anything but telling Greece to step down and mind its own business. I’m sorry; I thought America was of a higher caliber than this. I actually thought that the recognition of Macedonia by its constitutional name by the Bush administration spelt the beginning of the end to all this absurdity. This latest show of disrespect is yet more evidence that Greece is illegally obstructing Macedonia’s right to self-determination and that it is not alone in its intent.

[Stojacanec]

Gruevski and Ivanov are doing a fantastic job. They are raising awarness of the Macedonian Struggle in more and more of their speaches.

It has only taken 20 years but hey....better late than never !!

We don't need to concede to the New Territorians and former Albanians.

[indigen]

Gruevski and Ivanov are doing a fantastic job. They are raising awarness of the Macedonian Struggle in more and more of their speaches.

It has only taken 20 years but hey....better late than never !!

We don't need to concede to the New Territorians and former Albanians.

Macedonian President makes it Clear [as mud] to Greece, the EU
Thursday, 10 December 2009

- Macedonia will not alter the Constitution in order to change its constitutional name, and will not accept any settlement that violates Macedonian national and language identity, said President Gjorge Ivanov during Thursday's formal academy at the Skopje-based Faculty of Law on occasion of the International Human Rights Day.

[....]

Mina

People need to read between the lines when "our" politicians in RoM speak, ALWAYS.

The statement above reads that IVANOV WILL accept a name change (but not for internal use).

And this is how he praises the TREASONOUS Framework Agreement:

Ѓорге Иванов:
Со потпишувањето на Охридскиот рамковен договор Македонија покажа дека е држава која навистина знае како да се определи за својата иднина, изјави претседателот Ѓорге Иванов по денешната посета на Старата скопска чаршија.

[Risto the Great]

Solid point Indigen.
This aligns itself with what appears to be the current USA stance as suggested here:

Elftherotypia: U.S. proposes name “Republic of North Macedonia” as resolution of the name issue
14 December 2009 | 16:12 | FOCUS News Agency
Athens. Washington recommends the name “Republic of North Macedonia” to be carried as resolution of the name dispute between Athens and Skopje, Greek Elftherotypia newspaper writes. The U.S., which has said several times it is about time Athens and Skopje, to close the name issue, are now pressing the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to demonstrate good neighbor relations with Greece by adopting the name “Republic of North Macedonia” as the specifying of the comprehensiveness of the usage to be left for the future.
Washington also recommends Athens and Skopje to concentrate on finding resolution of the name issue and later, in the frames of the UN, to resolve the dispute over nationality and language. The newspaper writes that this way, through the dictionary of the UN, which will propose the language and the nationality of FYROM to be called “Macedonian” Greece will have at practice no possibility to contradict. The American tactic is to prepare the ground for the annulment of Greek arguments as a whole, so Greece to present “naked” at the European Summit scheduled for 2010, NATO Summit, Elftherotypia reads.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n203385

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do we have a US communication regarding this new development? Eleftherotypia is renowned for producing lie after lie.

- Macedonia will not alter the Constitution in order to change its constitutional name, and will not accept any settlement that violates Macedonian national and language identity, said President Gjorge Ivanov during Thursday's formal academy at the Skopje-based Faculty of Law on occasion of the International Human Rights Day.

[....]

Mina

People need to read between the lines when "our" politicians in RoM speak, ALWAYS.

The statement above reads that IVANOV WILL accept a name change (but not for internal use).

I am reading between the lines, but I don't read it that way. In addition to Ivanov's comment, Gruevski explicitly states that he wants our people to enter these institutions as Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

Gruevski explicitly states that he wants our people to enter these institutions as Macedonians.

We enter as Macedonians but they call us anything they want.
This is my concern!