Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Gocka]

I was wrong that the referendum would succeed outright. But in all fairness it wasn't too far off. With a realistic voter list it probably was anywhere from 42-48% turnout. If Albanians came out in higher numbers it very well could have passed the mark.

The boycott movement was successful in achieving a low turnout. The fact that 92% were yes votes is proof that their campaign worked flawlessly. You can credit it them that much. Unfortunately as we warned them form day one, they are fighting the wrong battle. Here we are the day after and although we were partially wrong about the referendum results we were spot on about what the aftermath would be. On top of that we were spot on about the resistance movement being a step behind if we waited for this day to come before we made a plan to deal with it. The boycott movement was shallow, and only set out to achieve a single goal. That goal was archived and we still find ourselves in the exact same position, expect we are now starting from scratch and playing catch up with SDSM who planned everything out in advance.

It was easy to get people to essentially do nothing. Maybe the coordination was impressive, but much less impressive when you realize it all boils down to convincing people to just do nothing. Now at this juncture, stubbornly doing nothing can no longer accomplish anything, not even shallow goals.

So what now? We asked that question 2 months ago, and still no answers. We are left with hoping that not enough DPMNE sellouts actually sell out, and that DPMNE wins early elections. What will that accomplish? A temporary end to the name deal, but an implementation of the language law and the Tirana platform. Even if DPMNE gain seats, they need the Albanians parties to for a majority coalition. The only reason the Albanian parties would join that coalition is if their demands are met (Tirana platform).
I wouldn't count Zaev out just yet.

He came out almost instantly with a contingency plan, that tells you that they had a plan no matter the outcomes of the referendum. He has an ace in his pocket. Either he will convince/coerce enough DPMNE traitors to agree, or they have a plan to obtain a coalition that will yield the necessary 80 votes they need.

They didn't seem rattled at all by the result, and DPMNE has been suspiciously meek throughout the process.

On top of that the West EU/USA are clearly heavily vested in this and have went too far to just abandon this now and look like idiots. They will provide political cover for Zaev at least for the time being. If Zaev has incriminating info on DPMNE, expect it to dominate the media narrative.

So there you have it folks. By being lazy and not having a real plan we have gone from the frying pan into the fire, and now our only hope is to jump back into the frying pan for a while.

The only other outside chance of salvaging anything is if by some miracle a party like Levica can take votes away from both SDS and DPMNE AND turn out to not also be traitors like the rest of them. Then form a coalition with DPMNE and force them to reform.

This is what you get when your grand plan is to act like stubborn children and thumb your nose while grownups plan your demise.

[Pelagonija]

https://plusinfo.mk/%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%99%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD-%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA-600-000/

According to Albert Musliu, the reason for the INSUFFICIENT TURNOUT AMONG THE ALBANIANS is because they are not in the country.

Кај албанските гласачи, Муслиу смета дека причината за недоволно излегување не била поради бојкот, ами поради тоа што тие не се во државата.

– Тие што се тука, сите гласале. Оние што се во странство можат да гласаат, ама треба да патуваат по 600 километри, прво за да се пријават да гласаат, а потоа за да гласаат. Можеби ова ќе им биде поука на институциите да ги изменат методите за да им олеснат на нашите граѓани да гласаат. Ако си во Њујорк, треба да одиш во Детроит за да гласаш, а има некои од Њујорк што никогаш не отишле во Детроит бидејќи нема што да прават таму. Далеку е – тврди Муслиу.

You can hire a car and drive from Struga to Tetovo and you will find most of the Albanian villages are empty, funny I don’t see the Albanians bagging out their diaspora.. we payed dearly in Struga and Kicevo for allowing such rubbish.

[Risto the Great]

As much as I don’t like Vucic.. well said

https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2018&mm=10&dd=01&nav_id=105186

"It's not my place to interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign country... I'm afraid and it seems to me that some people from abroad underestimate us Balkan nations and think that they can do anything," Vucic said, adding:

"They think - 'we'll see if we can do it with the people, if not, then we won't, we will try to pressure deputies (parliament members), if that doesn't work either, no matter, it must be that way... I would ask people from Europe and the world to show respect toward us small nations and to show that they understand what is happening," said is Vucic.

He then "superimposed" the situation onto Serbia.

"Imagine me calling on people to take part in a referendum, and 25, 35 percent end up turning out, and me saying, 'we've won'... That is an impossible situation for me. There is democracy, constitutions and laws are there to be respected, even when the decision of the people isn't liked by someone. I don't like the stance of people in Serbia, to sit, to be silent, and to think that somebody from the sky will help. I respect that position if this is the position of the people, it's no good that I think differently, it's no good that I think we should be solving our future in a more responsible way, but my duty is to respect my people and understand the messages that people are sending, "Vucic added.

He stressed that the reaction from the EU (to the Macedonia referendum) was "very important to him."

"As far as the world is concerned, I expected more understanding for the real reasons behind the low turnout, and I expected someone to consider this in a realistic way. You cannot forget what the people think, Europe must take a more responsible stance," Vucic said.

The Serbian president added that he "respects the agreement between Greece and Macedonia" on the name of the latter - which was, among other things, included in the referendum question

In the same way some EU nations don't like to hear about partitioning countries, Serbia very much understands what happens when a nation is held to ransom by the powerful nations. They should be an ally, but they just love their little Grik mates too much.

[Risto the Great]

I think Zaev is clutching to the last straws of power.

The referendum was just the latest of his programs or platforms that has failed...he's made outlandish promises to the shiptari and to those Macedonians that will sell their soul for the glittering turds that Zaev promised them...surely many Zaev supporters are waking up to themselves that this is a man that is full of shit and is actually working against Macedonia.

A new election would be Zaev's last spin of the dice...his last opportunity to fuck over Macedonia.
From where he sits now, his only hope is a fresh election...he's made huge promises to the shiptari, he is a dead man walking if he doesn't deliver said promises...he'll put everything into a new election if it means saving his own arse.

If there was ever gonna be a chance for useful fake news it would be based on the above.

Headline, "Zaev loses faith of party"

Zaev's failed campaign to change the name of Macedonia has .....

[Phoenix]

The West fuel him and give him legitimacy.

They do indeed, for now...but has the 'West' recruited the right man or an incompetent idiot...a shitload of planning and millions of dollars, paint laden condoms, politically motivated manipulation of the judiciary, a well trodden goat path from the powerful capitals of Europe to little Skopje to promote the virtues of a positive referendum with a good dose of coercion thrown in for good measure and Zajko couldn't sell this huge glittering turd to 60% of the population...that's failure on a grand and unimaginable scale...how long can the West fuel this fool?

[VMRO]

They do indeed, for now...but has the 'West' recruited the right man or an incompetent idiot...a shitload of planning and millions of dollars, paint laden condoms, politically motivated manipulation of the judiciary, a well trodden goat path from the powerful capitals of Europe to little Skopje to promote the virtues of a positive referendum with a good dose of coercion thrown in for good measure and Zajko couldn't sell this huge glittering turd to 60% of the population...that's failure on a grand and unimaginable scale...how long can the West fuel this fool?

They even brought in Nikola Dimitrov from political isolation... Maybe the underestimated the Macedonian stubbornness and also the large element of "Sho znam"

[Phoenix]

... Maybe the underestimated the Macedonian stubbornness and also the large element of "Sho znam"

Maybe we're a little too harsh on this forum towards the average Macedonian citizen who has to put up with the clowns that represent them and who continually fail to act like responsible leaders but simply use the privileges of office as a means of lining their own pockets and to fleece the state...maybe the majority of people actually know about the poisoned chalice and stayed clear of it..and in a country where boycotting is a common form of political protest, a similar strategy was deemed quite acceptable in fighting the referendum question...

We can debate the merits of this (boycott) strategy indefinitely but the defeat of this referendum at this stage has been a huge victory when you consider what the people where up against...the coercion before and after the event has been massive, the West continues to paint this as a 'win' when clearly it is no such thing, those forces will continue to try and overturn Sundays result...in the face of such overwhelming force, I don't buy that stubbornness alone or total apathy won the day...

Maybe...just maybe, the majority of Macedonians still have more pride for themselves than what we give them credit for...
Really good and decent people let down by abhorrent, self serving parasites...

[Karposh]

Following are just a few examples of the type of ignorant reporting by western media news outlets with regard to the failed name-change referendum in Macedonia. Apparently it wasn't the Macedonian people's firm stance against such ethnic & historical suicide (a keystone national sentiment), which has been described as merely “local interest” by the western media, that caused it to fail but Vladimir Putin and his very effective Russian sphere of influence that has managed to spread his malevolent Russian tentacles into Macedonia and affect the referendum result.

The refusal of Macedonia’s voters to endorse a change in their country’s name seems, at first glance, to be a matter of purely local interest. But the result of Sunday’s referendum will be widely seen as a significant victory for Vladimir Putin, a setback for the EU and Nato, and another disturbing example of Russia’s ability and willingness to influence the democratic process in western countries.

For students of the 2016 US presidential election, Russia’s methods inMacedonia look highly familiar. Disinformation campaigns and “fake news”, cyberwarfare and hacking, phoney Facebook and Twitter accounts and secret cash payments – the modern equivalent of communist-era “red gold” – are all alleged to have been used.

The next bit of reporting is actually quite insulting. Apparently, the dummies that decided to boycott, did so because they bought into Russian propaganda and fake news and, as a result, missed their chance for European Union acceptance. And all because of some misguided show of petulance, a way of showing Albanians that they will not allow them to change their name. If only those slack-jawed Slav-Macedonian peasants knew they were being played by the Russians instead of behaving like the dim-witted morons that they in fact are...He or she who wrote this article might as well have written that. It's quite evident in the tone of the article and there for all to see.

Russia denies interfering. But western diplomats claimed last month that 40 new posts a day were appearing on Facebook encouraging a referendum boycott. Postings asked “are you going to let Albanians change your name?” – a blatant attempt to stoke tensions with majority-Slav Macedonia’s ethnic Albanian minority.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/01/result-of-macedonia-referendum-is-another-victory-for-russia

[maco2envy]

guardian = MI6 propaganda

[Karposh]

Maybe we're a little too harsh on this forum towards the average Macedonian citizen who has to put up with the clowns that represent them and who continually fail to act like responsible leaders but simply use the privileges of office as a means of lining their own pockets and to fleece the state...maybe the majority of people actually know about the poisoned chalice and stayed clear of it..and in a country where boycotting is a common form of political protest, a similar strategy was deemed quite acceptable in fighting the referendum question...

We can debate the merits of this (boycott) strategy indefinitely but the defeat of this referendum at this stage has been a huge victory when you consider what the people where up against...the coercion before and after the event has been massive, the West continues to paint this as a 'win' when clearly it is no such thing, those forces will continue to try and overturn Sundays result...in the face of such overwhelming force, I don't buy that stubbornness alone or total apathy won the day...

Maybe...just maybe, the majority of Macedonians still have more pride for themselves than what we give them credit for...
Really good and decent people let down by abhorrent, self serving parasites...

Here, here. Well said Phoenix. I do think we're a bit hard on them at times. Credit, where credit is due - this was not a win for typical Macedonian apathy but a win for Macedonian pride. The west may well claim that this was nothing more than a win for Russian subterfuge, as they indeed do, but, this has clearly been an obvious display of Macedonians turning a corner and discovering some new-found pride in themselves. The EU & Nato are not the be all and end all for Macedonian national interests but, ultimately, the Macedonian spirit is.

[Pelagonija]

You know we would have seen 10 rebellions in mkd by now if Macedonia had nationalists, and these nationalists were supported by Russia. But the truth is we don’t have nationalists hence who are the Russians going to support? and Russia doesn’t give a shit about mkd, how would they gain when the west is busy arming Russia’s border neighbours to their teeth? What our nationalists are going to invade Brussels? maybe Greece?

[Pelagonija]

Here, here. Well said Phoenix. I do think we're a bit hard on them at times. Credit, where credit is due - this was not a win for typical Macedonian apathy but a win for Macedonian pride. The west may well claim that this was nothing more than a win for Russian subterfuge, as they indeed do, but, this has clearly been an obvious display of Macedonians turning a corner and discovering some new-found pride in themselves. The EU & Nato are not the be all and end all for Macedonian national interests but, ultimately, the Macedonian spirit is.

It’s hard to tell but more than likely the minority considering the numbers are skewed as we haven’t had a real census, plus how many of people that didn’t vote are apolitical?

[Phoenix]

...The west may well claim that this was nothing more than a win for Russian subterfuge, as they indeed do, but, this has clearly been an obvious display of Macedonians turning a corner and discovering some new-found pride in themselves. The EU & Nato are not the be all and end all for Macedonian national interests but, ultimately, the Macedonian spirit is.

I don't have any doubt that the vast majority of Macedonians are in favour of NATO and EU membership...but not at the cost of their right to self determination, nor the myriad of conditions to be imposed by the greeks on the Macedonian side if they are to accept the Prespa capitulation.

It is this flagrant disregard for our basic rights and bullying from the West that I find most disgusting, the fact that the West really doesn't stand for anything of substance, morally, ethically or legally...

[Amphipolis]

It’s hard to tell but more than likely the minority considering the numbers are skewed as we haven’t had a real census, plus how many of people that didn’t vote are apolitical?

The turnout in recent elections is a reference point:
2016 67%
2014 63%
2011 63%
(in presidential elections it's far lower)

[vicsinad]

Thanks. If the only thing we can do is elicit a rebuttal or response or clarification from the State Department, that's fine. I don't expect them to care.

I'm wondering what Russia's play is. Of course, Macedonia is being used as a battleground. But what can -- and more importantly, what will -- Russia do if this were taken to the UN?

http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/3363368

Comment by the Information and Press Department on the results of Macedonia’s referendum

1822-01-10-2018

en-GB1 ru-RU1



On September 30, the Republic of Macedonia held a referendum on the Prespa Agreement, which stipulates changing the country’s name to North Macedonia. The 36.8 percent turnout means that the referendum cannot be recognised as valid (the turnout must be at least 50 percent). It clearly indicates that Macedonian voters chose to boycott the solutions imposed on Skopje and Athens externally – as the leading politicians from NATO and EU member states participated in this large-scale propaganda campaign directly, freely interfering in the internal affairs of this Balkan state.

Despite the fact that two thirds of Macedonia’s population did not vote in favour of the Prespa Agreement, the results of the vote were instantly hailed by the EU and NATO leaders, and in Washington as well. The desire to ensure and speed up Skopje’s accession to NATO despite the will of the people of Macedonia is evident.

Our principaled position remains the same: a long-term solution can only be agreed upon by the two parties on their own, without any external interference, and only within the framework of the law and with broad public support. The Prespa Agreement clearly fails to meet these criteria. It is inconsistent with the international law and the Constitution of Macedonia, which was repeatedly emphasised by the Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov, including from the rostrum of the UN General Assembly.

As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, Russia is closely monitoring the development of this situation. We proceed from the fact that according to paragraph 3 of the UN Security Council Resolution 845, the results of the talks between Skopje and Athens will be considered at the UN Security Council.