Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    What he basically said in the beginning is that he will speak in the south-Slavic language. In the end, I believe he translated everything into Greek - but before he spoke in Greek again, he said he will speak in the Macedonian language - an (ancient) Greek dialect. People can correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation.

    So, in his address to the "friends from Northern Macedonia" I think he essentially emphasized that "Macedonian" is a Greek language and/or dialect (going back to antiquity), while calling the language of his "friends in N. Macedonia" a south-Slavic language.

    As we saw previously, the Greek side - even the current govt of Tsipras which signed (or will soon sign) the agreement - does not recognize, and is not obligated or required to call the language of Macedonia "Macedonian language".


    FYI - I just found this.

    Dr Petros Karatsareas, Lecturer in English Language and Linguistics at the University of Westminster, wrote an article for The Conversation on how the Greek Macedonian Slavic language was wiped out by linguistic oppression.

    URL:
    https://www.westminster.ac.uk/news-a...ion-here-s-how

    In the article, Dr Karatsareas described how the Macedonian Slavic language was progressively banned and wiped out, following Greece’s territory and population’s expansion after winning the two Balkan wars.

    Dr Karatsareas explained that this territorial change resulted in the creation of new state borders that did not coincide with linguistic ones. The article stated that the Greek government was, at that time, ‘keen to promote nationalism and started to show discomfort towards Greece’s new multilingual face’. As outlined, a period of oppression towards Macedonian Slavic speakers, who developed fear of speaking their language on the territory, followed. Dr Karatsareas explained that this caused the progressive loss of the Macedonian Slavic language and heritage in Greece.

    URL - Full Article, written on April 19, 2018:
    https://theconversation.com/greeces-...eres-how-94675

    Some excerpts from the article.

    1) My own paternal grandfather’s family name became Karatsareas from Karachorov. My maternal grandfather’s one became Kantzouris from Kanzurov. The area of Karadzova was renamed Almopia with its main town of Subotsko becoming Aridaia. The dance Puscheno was called Leventikos or Lytos. The aim was to leave no visible trace of Macedonian Slavic in public records.

    2) In 1936, the governor-general of Macedonia issued order of prohibition 122770: “On the restoration of the uniform language”, banning the use of Macedonian Slavic in both public and private. People caught speaking Macedonian Slavic – sometimes by police officers eavesdropping through people’s windows – were dragged to military police stations where they were beaten and sometimes tortured. Those who had the money were fined. Teachers beat pupils who spoke Macedonian Slavic in class or in the playground – even when that was the only language they were able to speak. This happened to my maternal grandmother.

    3) In 1994, Human Rights Watch called for Greece to end harassment of Macedonian Slavic speakers. In 1998, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Greece violated the right of its citizens to form associations by refusing them permission to establish a Macedonian Slavic cultural association. But these calls came much too late.
    Last edited by Carlin; 06-16-2018, 06:15 AM.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
      I think he essentially emphasized that "Macedonian" is a Greek language and/or dialect (going back to antiquity)
      If that's what he actually said then he is a delusional moron.

      As for Petros Karatsareas' article, see here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ghlight=petros

      It is a decent article, but he should honour his ancestors by using the same name for the language they did - which is Macedonian. He should also be accurate when referring to Human Rights Watch who also refer to the language as Macedonian.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        If that's what he actually said then he is a delusional moron.

        As for Petros Karatsareas' article, see here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ghlight=petros

        It is a decent article, but he should honour his ancestors by using the same name for the language they did - which is Macedonian. He should also be accurate when referring to Human Rights Watch who also refer to the language as Macedonian.
        I'm late to the game on this one.

        This is on Karatsareas' Twitter -

        Comment

        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          1) Panos Kammenos: "We commit that the agreement will never be ratified!"



          2) Потпишувањето на договорот за името утре во 9:30 часот, во понеделник изутрина законот за ратификација на Влада

          Законот за ратификација планирано е да помине на Владина седница во понеделник во 9 часот утрото, по што ќе биде пратен во Собранието.

          Last edited by Carlin; 06-16-2018, 07:12 AM.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            Full translation of the link in the previous post. Looks like they're doing it on the Greek side of the border. And all these EU and UN maggots are coming to witness the final capitulation of Macedonia's politicians. It's all up to the Macedonian people now. Extreme situations require extreme measures. God help us.
            The signing of the name issue tomorrow, at 9:30 am, Monday morning, the law on ratification of the Government. Matthew Nimetz, Federica Mogherini, Johannes Hahn and Rosemary DiCarlo, UN Secretary General's Deputy Antonio Guterres will witness the signing of the name row tomorrow at 9:30 am in Prespa on the Greek side between the heads of diplomats of Macedonia and Greece, Nikola Dimitrov and Nikos Kodzias, announced 24Vesti. The Macedonian official delegation, with the exception of Prime Minister Zoran Zaev and Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov, will be Deputy Prime Ministers Bujar Osmani, Radmila Sekerinska and Oliver Spasovski. The law on ratification is planned to pass at the Government session on Monday at 9 am, after which it will be sent to the Parliament.
            Imagine a politician or leader that realises he hasn't been working in the best interest of his people, and finally takes a stand at the moment of truth. Tomorrow is a great day to (figuratively) turn Prespa into another Bannockburn Unfortunately, such idealism is absent in this current mob of traitors.

            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Greek police fired teargas at protesters outside the parliament building in central Athens on June 16, as lawmakers were in session discussing a no-confidence motion against the government over a deal to end a decades-old dispute with neighboring Macedonia.

              URL:
              Greek police fired teargas at protesters outside the parliament building in central Athens on June 16, as lawmakers were in session discussing a no-confidence motion against the government over a deal to end a decades-old dispute with neighboring Macedonia.

              Comment

              • Niko777
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2010
                • 1895

                Greek PM Tsipras survives no-confidence vote over Macedonia name deal

                (AP)

                Comment

                • Niko777
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 1895

                  Albanian news channel from Macedonia interviews native Macedonians, Albanian workers, in Psarades/Nivici, Prespa

                  They start speaking Macedonian at 2:10

                  VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH3DDjF3bUQ

                  Lol "Grci sme, zborvate Makedonski?"

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
                    VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH3DDjF3bUQ

                    Lol "Grci sme, zborvate Makedonski?"
                    Indeed. He spoke Macedonian well enough, as did the other lady. I guess generations of brainwashing has him calling himself Greek now, but I don't think he got the memo about not calling his native language Macedonian. The policies of successive Greek regimes have unfortunately ruined many of our people in those parts. Anyway, it's interesting when he says "не знам шо ке стани сеа, или на добро или на лошо....не знаиме, мене ми се пули на лошо, за грцката македонија". I am assuming this is in relation to the "agreement" given the recent upload date of the clip. What do you think he meant by that?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Niko777
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2010
                      • 1895

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Anyway, it's interesting when he says "не знам шо ке стани сеа, или на добро или на лошо....не знаиме, мене ми се пули на лошо, за грцката македонија". I am assuming this is in relation to the "agreement" given the recent upload date of the clip. What do you think he meant by that?
                      He means the agreement is a threat for the "Greekness" of Aegean Macedonia... in other words it will open up more issues challenging the Greek narrative of Macedonia. He (like 99% of Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia) is confused about his identity, on one hand he has no issue calling his native language Macedonian, on the other hand he's defending Greek interests.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        I just saw this clip:



                        At 2.03 the old man explains why he thinks the "agreement" will be bad. He is under the impression that it will result in the annexation (read reunification) of Aegean Macedonia with the Republic of Macedonia. There's a LOL for you right there.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Karposh
                          Member
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 863

                          Just a couple of thoughts I'd like to share with regard to the posted videos of Nivici. Firstly, I'm really impressed at just how beautiful the village is. Both its architecture and its idylic lakeside location, nestled among the Prespa hills. I've never been in that part of the world before and I'm looking forward to visiting it one day. Secondly, it looks like the brainwashing and fear of Greek reprisals runs deep among the local population. The woman refused to say much at all...understandably so. While the old man looked like he was genuinely concerned that Greek Macedonia would be lost to the North.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            I said that a couple of weeks ago. The sheep over there totally believe that they will lose their part of Macedonia.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Tomche Makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2011
                              • 1123

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              I just saw this clip:



                              At 2.03 the old man explains why he thinks the "agreement" will be bad. He is under the impression that it will result in the annexation (read reunification) of Aegean Macedonia with the Republic of Macedonia. There's a LOL for you right there.
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              I said that a couple of weeks ago. The sheep over there totally believe that they will lose their part of Macedonia.
                              I got the impression from that guy that they are worried about being kicked out of Greek Occupied Macedonia (their homes) and forced to live in the Republic, not that the artificial border will disappear
                              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                              Comment

                              • DraganOfStip
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2011
                                • 1253

                                The Macedonian community here in Malta is in an internal struggle of it's own since there appear to be 2 parralel associations which claim to be the official representatives of the Macedonians in Malta.
                                One of them, led by former TV sports journalist known as File Topki, met with Murtinskio during his visit to Malta a week or two ago and the meeting was displayed in the media for propaganda purposes (like, the Macedonians in Malta support the government in it's high treason).
                                Immediately after, the other association issued a statement in which they condemn the capitulation and stated that their request to meet the traitor from Murtino so that they can issue him a protest note was denied by his cabinet.
                                In any case, most Macedonians here are AGAINST the agreement and not FOR it as government media try to present.
                                ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                                ― George Orwell

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