Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

And the South forgets, then remembers differently, then thinks they're North. Then forgets. Then ....

[Phoenix]

...we just need a couple dragons...and RtG has the Tyrion role down pat...

[Risto the Great]

...we just need a couple dragons...and RtG has the Tyrion role down pat...

You always reminded me of the Hound. But uglier.

[maco2envy]

Just read on sdk.mk that it was agreed that the language has no footnote in the UN (First time reading about this). Also it was agreed that the international code will remain "MK"/"MKD".

[maco2envy]

Although we are still only seeing a small part of the agreement

[Phoenix]

Just read on sdk.mk that it was agreed that the language has no footnote in the UN (First time reading about this). Also it was agreed that the international code will remain "MK"/"MKD".

The whole sorry saga was originally about the name of the country only...why that dickhead Zaev has even entertained the Greeks in any discussion around language, identity and the constitution is truly mind boggling.

At the end of the day Zaev has condoned diplomatic blackmail, in the hope of gaining membership to a couple of dubious organizations....while shitting on Macedonian history.

[Amphipolis]

Thanks rtg. Its been awhile.

If Daskalot also comes back then things are really serious.

Some info from Greece:

First, Tsipras and Zaev description of some details don't seem to agree.

Regarding the practical part, It seems that at the moment Greece will do nothing and the agreement will be ratified (by the Parliament or the people) after all Constitutional changes are complete.

This is a google translation of Tsipras' announcement as I could not find a full English version

"Greek Greeks,

A few hours ago and after many months of persistent negotiations, we managed to reach an agreement with the Macedonian Prime Minister to resolve our longstanding dispute over the name of the neighbor.
For more than seventy years, since the establishment of the neighboring state of Yugoslavia, and particularly after its independence in 1992, the neighboring country has been called the "Republic of Macedonia", with all that this implies for the appropriation of the heavy cultural heritage of Greek Macedonia.
I would like to inform you that in order to establish constructive cooperation relations and sincere friendship among our peoples and so that Greece not only accepts but also takes the lead in the European and Euro-Atlantic prospects of our neighbors, they have agreed to change their constitutional name for all uses and for everyone.
They agreed to renaming their country to the Republic of Severna Makedonija, ie our language in the Republic of Northern Macedonia.
The change of name will be realized both in terms of their international and bilateral relations, but also in the interior.
In short, this name will be erga omnes - for all, both abroad and internally, which means that our neighbors undertook to revise their Constitution.
In this way and under the terms of the agreement, the 140 countries that today recognize our neighbors as Macedonia will now recognize them as "Democracy of Northern Macedonia".
This clearly achieves a clear separation between Greek Macedonia and our North Neighbors and finally puts an end to the irredentism of their current constitutional name.
At the same time - and perhaps this would have the greatest historical weight and value for Greece - in the Agreement that we reached for the first time is predicted that our North Neighbors do not have and can not claim in the future any relationship with its ancient Greek civilization Macedonia.
The term Macedonian of the Greek historical heritage, which derives its origin from the ancient Greek civilization, is explicitly and categorically separated from the term Macedonian as it is used and on the basis of which the citizens of our neighbor are identified.
In the same context, the Agreement recognizes the relevant UN decisions since 1977 to record the language of our neighbors as a Macedonian language, with the additional but clear wording that it belongs to the family of South Slavic languages, which, expressly is completely separate from the Greek-Macedonian linguistic heritage and the ancient Greek civilization.
The agreement also provides that the citizenship to be included in the travel documents of our neighbors will not be: Macedonian plain, as it is today, but: Macedonian / Citizen of Northern Macedonia.
Greece will recognize the citizenship of neighboring citizens as "citizens of Northern Macedonia".
But beyond that, the fact that we have agreed our neighbors in the forthcoming Constitutional Revision to undertake to remove from their Constitution any reference could be interpreted as irresponsible.
Specifically:
The references to the Macedonian Minority, as well as the need to protect it, are eliminated.
Replaces the article on border protection by deleting the current petition problems.
Finally, any historical and irrational references are removed from the preamble of their Constitution.
With Mr Zafe we also reached a clear timetable for signing - ratification and entry into force of the Agreement.
The Agreement, signed by the Foreign Ministers, should be ratified by the House of our Neighbors.
Greece will then support a decision on the opening of North Macedonia's accession negotiations with the EU. to the forthcoming European Council.
At the same time, it will support the sending of an invitation by the NATO Summit to join the organization.
Both invitations will be conditional on the successful completion of the Constitutional Revision, which guarantees the use of the name for all.
Simply put, if the Constitutional Revision fails, then the invitation to join NATO is automatically void and the accession negotiations with the EU are not initiated.
Last but not least, Greece will ratify the Convention in the Greek Parliament by putting it into force as well as the NATO Accession Protocol to our neighbors after the successful completion of the constitutional review in the neighboring country.
In this way our country fully and completely secures its interests and does not lose its relative negotiating advantage.

[Amphipolis]

Pontic Greeks were not more than 20% of Macedonia's population after the population exchange.

Huh??? Even official Greek statistics confirm that settlers made up at least 50% of Aegean Macedonia's population after the 1920s.

Over 600,000 people were settled in Aegean Macedonia in the 1920s.

Pardon me, I meant to say over 600,000 of those 1.3 million "Greeks" from Turkey were settled in Macedonia. This is undeniable.

Irrespective of the 20% supposed portion of pontic greeks, the population exchange in the 1920s and their relative numbers meant a complete and utter transformation of the Aegean Macedonian region.

Refugees in Macedonia were 638k by 1928 which was 45,2% (almost half the population). For instance among my four grandparents one was a typical refugee while one more probably qualifies as a newcomer (I'm not sure).

Pontic people were 14,9% of the Greek refugees overall Greece, I don't have their percentage specifically in Macedonia.

[maco2envy]

Looks like Bulgaria will be vetoing us next...

Bulgaria, holder of the EU's rotating six-month presidency said the deal paved the way for accession talks. Bulgaria, which also shares a border with Greece and Macedonia, said the new
name should not be used for territorial or claims concerning language, culture, history or identity.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/13/we-have-a-deal-say-greece-and-macedonia-over-name-dispute.html

[Stojacanec]

Refugees in Macedonia were 638k by 1928 which was 45,2% (almost half the population). For instance among my four grandparents one was a typical refugee while one more probably qualifies as a newcomer (I'm not sure).

Pontic people were 14,9% of the Greek refugees overall Greece, I don't have their percentage specifically in Macedonia.

45.2% of the population may have come in Amphipolis then consider how many went left Aegean Macedonia to Turkey, ROM etc. That to me is a total transformation of the region.

[Amphipolis]

45.2% of the population may have come in Amphipolis then consider how many went left Aegean Macedonia to Turkey, ROM etc. That to me is a total transformation of the region.

They replaced people who went to Turkey and Bulgaria. None of them went to Yugoslavia unless you mean 1940s. I believe the number of people who left was not equal but slightly smaller.

This is indeed a transformation of Macedonia, but also of Bulgaria and Turkey (which you tend to forget). That's the idea of population exchange, end of war and viable national states. Think of it every time you speak against Albanians.

[Struja]

I can't believe I'm back her again! to those that know me, Pozdrav to all my old MK mates in Melb & Adelaide.

Looks like its the same old shit again with a different (ZZ) cunt applying it. Have I missed anything? Farken FYROMians

[Tomche Makedonche]

BBC and their typical one sided story telling...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44401643

Macedonia and Greece: Deal after 27-year row over a name

Greece has reached a deal on the name of its northern neighbour, which called itself Macedonia at the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.

After 27 years of talks - and many protests - they have settled on the name Republic of North Macedonia, or Severna Makedonija in Macedonian.

Greece had objected to the name Macedonia, fearing territorial claims on its eponymous northern region.

It had vetoed the neighbour's bid to join Nato and the European Union.

The new name will now need to be approved by the Macedonian people and Greek parliament.

What's the solution?

Under the deal, the country known at the United Nations as Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom) will be named Severna Makedonija, or Republic of North Macedonia.

Its language will be Macedonian and its people known as Macedonians (citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia).

Significantly, they agreed that the new name would be used both internationally and bilaterally, so that even the 140 or more countries that recognise the name Macedonia will also have to adopt North Macedonia.

They also agreed that the English name could be used as well as the Slavic term

The two sides had earlier dropped a number of alternatives, including Gorna Makedonija (Upper Macedonia), Nova Makedonija (New Macedonia) and Ilinden Macedonia.

Why the problem?

The name Macedonia already belongs to a northern region of Greece that includes the country's second city Thessaloniki. By adopting the same identity in 1991, the new Slavic nation infuriated many Greeks, who suspected their northern neighbour of territorial ambitions.

The new Macedonians did not help matters when they named the main airport in the capital, Skopje, after Ancient Greek hero Alexander the Great, as well as a key motorway running from the Serbian to the Greek border.

During the 4th Century BC, the Macedonia of Alexander and his father Philip II before him ruled all of Greece and much beyond it.

Is this row really about Alexander the Great?

Only partly. Greece argues that Macedonia is an intrinsic part of Hellenic heritage. The ancient capital of Aigai is close to the modern Greek town of Vergina, while Alexander's birthplace is in Pella. As part of the deal, it is made clear that the people of North Macedonia have no relation to ancient Greek civilisation and their language is part of the Slavic family, unrelated to ancient Greek heritage

But while Alexander remains a powerful symbol, recent territorial disputes over Macedonia are far more serious.

When the Ottomans were driven out of the broad region known as Macedonia during the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, it was split up, mainly between Greece and Serbia, but a small part went to Bulgaria.

In World War Two, Greek and Yugoslav Macedonia were occupied by Bulgaria, an ally of Nazi Germany and Italy. Communists from both Yugoslavia and Bulgaria played a part in the Greek civil war that followed, so memories are still raw.

When Yugoslavia broke up, Greece would only accept the new country as "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom)" at the UN, even though much of the world came to recognise it as Macedonia

What has changed?

A new mood has emerged between the governments to put an end to the dispute

Macedonia's government set the stage for a deal earlier this year when it renamed its airport "International airport Skopje" and the Alexander the Great motorway is now simply "Friendship" (Prijatelstvo in Macedonian).

There is also a push for a settlement both from the EU and Nato which some have put down to fears of creeping Russian influence in the Balkans. Greece is the main obstacle to Macedonia joining Nato.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and Macedonia's Zoran Zaev met on the sidelines of an EU summit in Bulgaria last month, prompting reports that a deal was close.

Then they had a long phone-call on Monday and followed it up with another conversation on Tuesday.

Mr Tsipras then gave details of the deal to the Greek president and then Mr Zaev went on live TV in Macedonia, hailing the agreement as historic and adding: "There is no way back."

Mr Tsipras gave a live address a little later, speaking of "a great diplomatic victory but also a great historic opportunity".

Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg praised the two prime ministers for their "willingness" to solve the dispute.

The text is expected to be signed on Saturday on the shores of Lake Prespa, which spans the countries' borders.

Will the name fly?

The aim is to get Macedonia's parliament to back an agreement before EU leaders meet for a summit on 28 June. Greece will then send a letter to the EU withdrawing its objection to accession talks and a letter to Nato too.

That will be followed by a Macedonian referendum in September or October.

If Macedonian voters back the deal, their government will then have to change the constitution, a key Greek demand.

The deal will finally have to be ratified by the Greek parliament.

That may not be straightforward. Greeks are generally opposed to any name that includes Macedonia and some political parties are unlikely to back this.

On 13 June, the parties are expected to get a copy of the 20-page deal to examine before announcing their stance. Mr Tsipras insists that he has maintained all of Greece's "red lines" - but the document is likely to be leaked by those who oppose it.

Large protests against a deal were held in some 25 Greek cities earlier this month, from Pella to Thessaloniki. When big crowds descended on the centres of Athens and Thessaloniki in February, renowned Greek composer Mikis Theodorakis, 92, said the neighbouring northern state was illegitimate. "Macedonia was, is and will forever be Greek," he insisted.

What if it doesn't work out?

A lot can happen over a long, hot summer. Delays may hamper the planned timescale and there could be repercussions for both leaders.

Mr Tsipras and Mr Zaev will have to face down opposition within their own countries as well as beyond.

A nationalist party, Independent Greeks, may refuse to back the deal, but it is unlikely to put at risk a ruling coalition that it is part of.

Although the two prime ministers have taken control of the issue, United Nations mediator Matthew Nimetz will likely be called upon to sort out any problems.

Since 1994, this US diplomat has quietly shuttled between Athens and Skopje searching for common ground that would eventually lead to a deal.

It is difficult to see how another deal could work

So basically, on the gist of it, we could see Macedonia jump through all of Greece's hoops, giving them everything they want (again), and in the end, after everything has been done, the Greek Parliament can just say: "No"

...you know like they already did with the Interim Agreement
...and ultimately suffer absolutely no consequences
...even though they were taken to court about it
...and in turn ask for more concessions from our side
...and then say "No" again
...and suffer no consequences
...and in turn ask for more concessions from our side
...and then say "No" again
...and suffer no consequences
...and in turn ask for more concessions from our side

Ignoring every argument that has been repeatedly highlighted over the past 27 years proving the undeniable ethnic suicidal nature of these negotiations, and how the mere thought of any person in the world willingly participating in such negotiations is beyond retarded, if any Macedonian, anywhere in the world can look him/herself in the mirror and honestly think, for one second, that if Macedonia were to implement any part of this agreement, Greece will actually "keep its word" on its part of the agreement, then I don't think there is a word in any language to adequately describe what you are.

[tchaiku]

Refugees in Macedonia were 638k by 1928 which was 45,2% (almost half the population). For instance among my four grandparents one was a typical refugee while one more probably qualifies as a newcomer (I'm not sure).

Pontic people were 14,9% of the Greek refugees overall Greece, I don't have their percentage specifically in Macedonia.

What about Karamanlides, some sources put their number at 400,000. But it doesn't add up with the total.

[Risto the Great]

I don't think there is a word in any language to adequately describe what you are.

You are wrong. There is a word for it in "Macedonian (a language of slavic origin)" I believe.