Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[vicsinad]

It may be controversial, but LOMA asks Turkey to promise to veto Macedonia's entrance into NATO if Macedonia changes its name. It's a long shot, but it would both put NATO policy to a test and make a mockery out of this entire name dispute (of course, as well as potentially keep the name from changing).

Dear Ambassador Serdar Kilic,

The League of Macedonian-Americans (LOMA) has an urgent request of the Turkish government.

We sincerely appreciate Turkey's support of Macedonia and President Erdogan's recent comments in defense of the Macedonian name and identity. We thank you for your friendship. We wish that the current Macedonian leadership would defend the Macedonian name and identity to the same extent that you have promised to protect Macedonia, its name and its identity.

So, we need your help. If Macedonia is forced to change its constitutional name in order to join NATO, then we ask that Turkey vetoes (or promises to veto) Macedonia's accession into NATO. This would be a bold move on behalf of Turkey and would not be an easy decision; but there are several benefits to promising to veto Macedonia's membership in such a circumstance:

1. It will force Macedonian leadership to reconsider abandoning their name and identity;
2. It will hamper Greece's efforts to eradicate the Macedonian name and identity from existence;
3. It will demonstrate that NATO's veto policy contradicts its open door policy;
4. It will show the world that Greece's veto is irrational, childish and dangerous;
5. It may pressure NATO into forcing Greece to drop its veto; and
6. It will prove that NATO's veto policy allows one nation to violate another sovereign nation's right to self-determination.

The Macedonian people and nation are in a tight corner. For decades, we Macedonians have been forced by Greece to merely survive. Macedonia and her people have missed out on much economic and social progress thanks to Greece's hindrance. We Macedonians have been belittled, disrespected and maltreated. Macedonia needs a friend.

Jane Sandanski, the famous Macedonian rebel who believed in a Macedonia for the Macedonians, eventually sided with Turkey because he realized that despite 500 years of Ottoman rule, an alliance with Turkey was the only way to safeguard and preserve the Macedonian nation and identity. Aligning with Turkey was a better option than being thrown into the hands of neighbors like Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. While Macedonia and Turkey have put the past behind them, it seems as if Greece is dwelling in its past in order to justify its chauvinistic and irredentist aspirations.

Let us strengthen this Macedonian-Turkish friendship for the sake of preserving the Macedonian name and identity; let us stand together to defeat ultra-Greek nationalism so that both of our peoples can be free to be who they are without fear and intimidation.
We thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Victor Sinadinoski,
LOMA Co-founder

https://www.leagueofmacedonians.org

https://www.leagueofmacedonians.org/letters-and-writings

[Niko777]

Seems like "Northern Macedonia" or "Upper Macedonia" is becoming more and more acceptable among Macedonians in RoM. Zaev himself announced yesterday that "we" are ready to change the name of the country with a geographic prefix. But why, why do they always have to add insult to injury? Like it's not bad enough that they are adding a prefix, why must it be untranslated into English and spelled "Gorna Makedonija"? People will be reading it in English as "џорна македониџа"...

[Phoenix]

I like it Vic...great work...I hope it receives the positive outcome it deserves.

Desperate times require desperate measures, this power play by the greeks is such a dysfunctional and illogical argument it can only be defended by utilising asymmetrical measures and responses...this is the time to be thinking outside of the box...

A piece of the puzzle that seems to have been lost by Zaev the Zaspan is the potential negative ramifications that a name change/identity change/language change has on diaspora Macedonians...we have every right to self-determination and we have an equal stake in preserving every aspect of our identity..this is not an area that is the sole domain of a handful of corrupt and useless politicians or just the Macedonians in the RoM...every effort needs to be made to cease this nonsense once and for all.

[Phoenix]

Seems like "Northern Macedonia" or "Upper Macedonia" is becoming more and more acceptable among Macedonians in RoM. Zaev himself announced yesterday that "we" are ready to change the name of the country with a geographic prefix. But why, why do they always have to add insult to injury? Like it's not bad enough that they are adding a prefix, why must it be untranslated into English and spelled "Gorna Makedonija"? People will be reading it in English as "џорна македониџа"...

It's the best way the greeks can rename the country and its people whilst feigning compromise... such an outcome would be a complete catastrophe and an embarrassing capitulation...to sign up to such a deal is to sign your own death warrant.

I have no idea what ZZ is capable of doing...I want to believe that he would never agree to such madness...

[vicsinad]

I like it Vic...great work...I hope it receives the positive outcome it deserves.

Desperate times require desperate measures, this power play by the greeks is such a dysfunctional and illogical argument it can only be defended by utilising asymmetrical measures and responses...this is the time to be thinking outside of the box...

A piece of the puzzle that seems to have been lost by Zaev the Zaspan is the potential negative ramifications that a name change/identity change/language change has on diaspora Macedonians...we have every right to self-determination and we have an equal stake in preserving every aspect of our identity..this is not an area that is the sole domain of a handful of corrupt and useless politicians or just the Macedonians in the RoM...every effort needs to be made to cease this nonsense once and for all.

Thanks -- desperate times do call for desperate measures.

But yes, I absolutely agree. Many Macedonians continue to think that these negotiations, name change, and etc. do not involve us or affect us.

[vicsinad]

It's the best way the greeks can rename the country and its people whilst feigning compromise... such an outcome would be a complete catastrophe and an embarrassing capitulation...to sign up to such a deal is to sign your own death warrant.

I have no idea what ZZ is capable of doing...I want to believe that he would never agree to such madness...

And how incapable (or unwilling) the people are to rise out. I hoped that by spring Zaev would do something so F'd up that the people would react. Well, I was wrong about that.

Perhaps SDS and DPNE have a backroom deal where DPNE is staying quiet so DPNE officials like Grujo won't face much jail time.

But that's no justification for why most people are still quiet.

[Phoenix]

And how incapable (or unwilling) the people are to rise out. I hoped that by spring Zaev would do something so F'd up that the people would react. Well, I was wrong about that.

Perhaps SDS and DPNE have a backroom deal where DPNE is staying quiet so DPNE officials like Grujo won't face much jail time.

But that's no justification for why most people are still quiet.

There seems to be an appalling lack of activism across all levels of society in Macedonia...it's particularly disheartening to see nothing from any former party leaders, academics, the church, media personalities and other prominent Macedonians (as discussed by Velinovska recently)

http://www.minareport.com/2018/01/31/velinovska-debt-acquired-from-illegal-macedonian-government-will-not-be-recognized/

There seems to be no genuine leadership in the RoM regarding this unfolding catastrophe...I still really want to believe that there's a grass roots level counter movement waiting to spring up...I'm wishing very hard...

[Tomche Makedonche]

Perhaps SDS and DPNE have a backroom deal where DPNE is staying quiet so DPNE officials like Grujo won't face much jail time.

DPNE has never really been against a name change, the only thing DPNE has actually been against is being responsible for a name change.

That's why Macedonians are only getting a general disassociation with the occasional lip service from them and nothing more

On another note, if Gruevski actually is the master manipulating strongman we are led to believe he is, then I'd say he is trying to position himself well for the fallout of SDS's current political agenda

[Risto the Great]

Thanks -- desperate times do call for desperate measures.

But yes, I absolutely agree. Many Macedonians continue to think that these negotiations, name change, and etc. do not involve us or affect us.

I think it was a worthy attempt. Ultimately, Turkey will be NATO's bitch and toe the line. But if Turkey attempts to capitalise out of this in any way and doesn't receive respectful responses, it could make Turkey dig its heels in. Either way, worth a shot!

I don't know why anyone thinks Zaev might not proceed with this. All of this is about tenure. With protracted tenure he will wring out a percentage of every dollar that flows through the country. He will do anything to hold on to his position. The name of the country is of no importance to him whatsoever.

[Vangelovski]

I wonder what the general reaction will be when they don't actually get into the EU (and quite possibly NATO)? Or, even if they eventually do get into the EU but nothing changes because they simply have not work ethic or moral compass.

Probably nothing. By then a whole generation would have grown up under the new name and they'll be spitting vile at anyone who mentions the truth. People would have 'fought and died' under that name, a rock with that name will have been found implying we were originally using it, people would have 'starved to death' if we didn't adopt the new name, there was 'pressure' from unnamed sources, and we 'had to do it to joint NATO/EU' for no benefit at all (assuming these organisations still exist).

[Risto the Great]

DPNE has never really been against a name change, the only thing DPNE has actually been against is being responsible for a name change.

Slight correction .... DPNE has never really been against a name change, the only thing DPNE has actually been against is being seen to be responsible for a name change.

[Risto the Great]

I wonder what the general reaction will be when they don't actually get into the EU (and quite possibly NATO)? Or, even if they eventually do get into the EU but nothing changes because they simply have not work ethic or moral compass.

Probably nothing. By then a whole generation would have grown up under the new name and they'll be spitting vile at anyone who mentions the truth. People would have 'fought and died' under that name, a rock with that name will have been found implying we were originally using it, people would have 'starved to death' if we didn't adopt the new name, there was 'pressure' from unnamed sources, and we 'had to do it to joint NATO/EU' for no benefit at all (assuming these organisations still exist).

We know how painfully true it is.

For the benefit of the uninformed. This is Macedonia on a 20 year bootloop cycle.

[Vangelovski]

We know how painfully true it is.

For the benefit of the uninformed. This is Macedonia on a 20 year bootloop cycle.

And they'll still be walking around toothless asking for money.

[Risto the Great]

And they'll still be walking around toothless asking for money.

Only after they finish their afternoon siesta and coffee and rakija.

[Phoenix]

I think it was a worthy attempt. Ultimately, Turkey will be NATO's bitch and toe the line. But if Turkey attempts to capitalise out of this in any way and doesn't receive respectful responses, it could make Turkey dig its heels in. Either way, worth a shot!

...Ultimately the matter rests solely with Macedonia and how prepared they are to defend their rights...I think if Macedonians were prepared to dig their heels in, some members like Turkey may actually provide tangible support...but when our side doesn't give a fuck, why should anyone else???

Most countries around the world already recognise us and yet we continue down this road of self destruction, without barely a whimper of defiance, just to appease the fascist cunts to our south.

There's currently some discontent amongst NATO members, particularly between Turkey and the US (and probably Britain) over the organisations support for certain proxy elements in the Syrian conflict...how that could influence Turkey is largely unknown...conversely, it could mean that Macedonia is once again used as a pawn in the self serving interests of other regional powers...