Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[George S.]

The pan Macedonian organization only manages to sway people who are ill informed about macedonia.They go on as if alexander could only have been greek & spoke greek.They forget to mention that there is a fine line.They dwell in the past & profess to know what happened 2000 years ago than what's happening today.Again there is a fine line these morons have been brainwashed into thinking all the skopians want is to take away their land.When all is said & done they beleive the lies & bullshit from their govt so they could justify holding illegally macedonian lands & property.Don't we know it the propaganda spewd by the serbs,bulgarians & now albanians.They need to be ignored but keep an open eye as to what they are upto so that we can counteract them.

[vicsinad]

What constitutes "a lot"? What have they managed to achieve? Their stronghold in the US and Canada already recognises Macedonia (the former for dubious reasons, but nevertheless).

Take for example the 2007 US Senate Resolution they sponsored...or the several state resolutions and bills for which they lobbied. By a lot...I mean relative to what Macedonians in the US have done to counter that sentiment. Moreso, some of their leaders and members are professors at universities, and one in particular teaches classes directly relating to "Greek-Macedonia." Who knows what her pupils are learning about the "true" identity of Macedonians. Macedonians in the US don't have that.

This is not just a political battle, it's also a battle of perception and fighting propaganda.

[vicsinad]

Negotiating the Macedonian Name Dispute Event

Anyone here of this? It's in D.C. at American University. Anyone going?

http://macedonia.eventbrite.com/

The American University Negotiation Project (AUNP) invites you to a closed, off the record, negotiation simulation about Macedonia's name issue on Saturday, April 14. The event takes place from 10:30am to 1:30pm in SIS 120 at American University's School of International Service. The event is co-sponsored by the Balkan Lecture Series Project. Students from SIS, SAIS, Georgetown, GW, and other schools, as well as young professionals are invited to take part in this simulation.

The Republic of Macedonia after its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, entered the UN with the temporary reference: "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". It was Greece that took issue with other proposals of how the country in the north would be called. Ever since there are distant relationships and it went so far that Greece blocked the entry of the Republic of Macedonia into NATO.
While several efforts have happened in the past, this could be the time to gather and come up with proposals of how to overcome the name dispute. You can be either be part of the Macedonian delegation, the Greek delegation or one of the mediators on the table. It is going to be an exciting experience for you of how it might be possible (or not) to overcome a seemingly intractable issue. So you might be part of changing the course of history.

The attire is casual. You do not any prior knowledge of the dispute, although you are welcome to research the topic. Coffee in the morning and light lunch will be provided.

Email to [email protected] if you have questions or requests for accessibility services.

[Risto the Great]

Its been done before (and Macedonia won). The real problem here is that the Macedonians politicians keep perpetuating this problem. Macedonian citizens keep voting these lacklustre lapdogs into government.

[George S.]

simulation my foot it's like to prolong the agony of a name change.It's not the politicians perogative but the citizens perogative if they wish to change the name.This game is an exercise in futulity avoiding realities of the situation.I'm surprised there isn't a computer game on it or a board game.Maybe it might sell.

[Risto the Great]

Maybe someone can make an iPood app for it.

[vicsinad]

Its been done before (and Macedonia won).

At this university, or somewhere else?

[George S.]

why not & be done with it create a an app & rename the whole world not just macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

At this university, or somewhere else?

Not really sure, but I recall reading about it many months ago.

[United MKD]

I think that was the ICJ case between Macedonia and Greece where a group of uni students took a side in a mooting excercise I think somewhere in England if I remember correctly.

[Vangelovski]

I think that was the ICJ case between Macedonia and Greece where a group of uni students took a side in a mooting excercise I think somewhere in England if I remember correctly.

I think it may have been the London School of Economics. A pointless exercise, though an interesting test case in a peoples inability to govern themselves.

[Risto the Great]

I think that was the ICJ case between Macedonia and Greece where a group of uni students took a side in a mooting excercise I think somewhere in England if I remember correctly.

Yes. Thanks UMKD, that sounds like the one I was thinking of. Which means this debate will be brand new. The other one was about the ICJ case, which mean why Macedonia deserved to be allowed to called FYROM.

[Vangelovski]

Some disturbing views in Victor's paper...

Victor believes that the name negotiations should continue:

I discuss why solving the dispute through discussion is the best possible path. (p. 96)

If this continues to be a problem for Macedonia, then “Macedonia must stop the UN talks and ask for a new resolution which would also affirm the use of the constitutional name of Macedonia within the UN system.” This is not a desirable path because it undermines the international process and ditches the negotiation process. (p. 105)

Solutions through negotiations and discussions are the most desired solutions. (p. 109)

Here are some of the ridiculous reasons as to why Victor thinks the name negotiations should continue (basically, he has pasted together all the scaremongering reasons that the Gligorovisti have been using for the past 20 years):

Democracy will be a utopian dream?

If a solution is not found, the idea of establishing viable democracies in the Balkans will become a utopian dream. (pp. 96-97)

The Albanians will get cranky...

As mentioned, any delay in finding a solution will affect ethnic relations between Macedonians and Albanians in Macedonia. (p. 98)

The economy...

While internal and regional peace is in jeopardy, so is the economic prosperity of both Macedonia and Greece. (p. 100)

Isolation...the usual crap. But here he's also introduced the concept of a "fair solution". What is a 'fair solution'?

Macedonia further risks becoming isolated from a European path and the international community if a fair solution is not found. (p. 101)

Nimetz thinks its a good idea...

However, the reasons for finding a solution are not only to avoid negative consequences, but to create positives. As Nimetz stated, “[t]his is one that cries out for a solution because the positives of solving it are so great.” Particularly, Nimetz mentioned how the EU and NATO processes would be enhanced. (p. 102)

Victor then moves on to find possible "solutions":

For its creative input, the ICG stated that a solution should entail, in part, each country avoiding the use of references in their educational curricula that offend the other nation’s sensitivities. The ICG does not seem to account for the difficulty in actually making this happen. Any suggestion in the Republic of Macedonia’s educational system that ethnic Macedonians are related to ancient Macedonians will offend the Greek nation’s sensitivities. It brings up the question of whether one nation should be cautious about how it approaches its ethnic identity in order not to offend another nation’s attachment to history. Still, such a proposed solution could be the foundation of serious collaboration between Greece and Macedonia on the issue of ancient and modern history. (p. 104)

Really Victor? A joint commission on history? Do you think the Macedonians and Greeks should share Macedonian history?

Ancient Macedonia comprises only one part of the Greek identity. (p. 104)

Here Victor believes that Ancient Macedonia actually comprises a part of the Greek identity!?!?!? Maybe that is why he believes Turkish speaking immigrants in Egej have a "legitimate" claim to Macedonia.

It is true that both Slavic ancestry and ancient Macedonian glory contribute to the Macedonian identity, but these two do not necessarily conflict with one another. (p. 105)

Really Victor, a "slavic" ancestry????

[DedoAleko]

You don't compromise with your Name

Ban Ki Moon: You don't compromise with your Name

The UN Secretary General is enjoying his visit to Macedonia, during his walk in Ohrid could be overheard saying - Macedonia, beautiful Macedonia...



Ban Ki Moon wasn't shy on his knowledge on Macedonia either. In front of journalists he proclaimed he has known about Macedonia and its rich history since his student days, except in Korea they called it "Makedonia". -The first time I saw the word 'Macedonia' was at the UN in the United States, since then I say Macedonia too, said Ki Moon.



As expected, the main topic of discussion was the name dispute with greece.



The real bombshell came when journalist from Kanal 5 asked the UN Secretary General about the right to self identification. Ban Ki Moon responded that the right to self identification and self determination is a Universal Right and the UN never comprimoses on that, neither should you!



This will surely cause shock waves in Athens and at home because the Government has been pressured by intellectuals and international lawyers to stop all illegal negotiations with greece and go for a vote in the UN Assembly after which Macedonia will simply remove the 'fyr' reference. More than 130 nations have recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name.

izvor: http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/21523/1/

[Risto the Great]

That is awesome in a surreal kind of way Dedo.
I hate it when outsiders point out things that "insiders" should know implicitly.
Here we have the UN Secretary General telling Macedonians what the UN believes in. RoMacedonians, on the other hand, are yet to understand this.