Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Bill77]

Bill77, I'm not against hope and inspiration, but it needs to be professed in the right context. If all your looking for is good news stories, then read UMD's press releases - everything is a good news story as far as they're concerned.

No ofcourse its not only just good news stories, though its very important. As is troubling, concerning news, for the sake of awareness, is equally important.

All i ask for is balance and some reality if we are to be taken seriously instead of being hated and alienated. I know, all the doom and gloom is reality and thank god we have been made aware of it. But always kicking our own while they are down is not my idea of the right path to take IMHO.

[Vangelovski]

No ofcourse its not only just good news stories, though its very important. As is troubling, concerning news, for the sake of awareness, is equally important.

All i ask for is balance and some reality if we are to be taken seriously instead of being hated and alienated. I know, all the doom and gloom is reality and thank god we have been made aware of it. But always kicking our own while they are down is not my idea of the right path to take IMHO.

Post an ideologically sound good news story that supports the cause as defined by the MTO and I'll be the first to promote it.

[Bill77]

Post an ideologically sound good news story that supports the cause as defined by the MTO and I'll be the first to promote it.

Well just to name one, (im not sure how or if it supports the cause as defined by the MTO) people showing pride and chanting Makedonia in a foreign country and on the streets of Skopje, which is shown and heard around the world, and our national anthem belted out in the centre of Tetovo, regardless if it during or after a basketball game, it must be a positive encouraging sign. But even after that you can find a negative by calling them cheap patriots.

The difference between you and i is you are a half glass empty man, where i am a half glass full person. The other difference is, i believe my glass can be filled, where yours will be emptied and give up guys. I can only hope you are wrong.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well just to name one, (im not sure how or if it supports the cause as defined by the MTO) people showing pride and chanting Makedonia in a foreign country and on the streets of Skopje, which is shown and heard around the world, and our national anthem belted out in the centre of Tetovo, regardless if it during or after a basketball game, it must be a positive encouraging sign.

I am not sure how highly we should rate the fact that people were chanting 'Macedonia' in Macedonia or a foreign country, the same would happen in any other country where Macedonians reside or are visiting for a specific purpose (in this case, a sporting event). While it is patriotic, when it relates to Macedonian sovereignty it really is little more than chest-beating. The reason I say this is because when a specific event for the purpose of asserting themselves is organised (like this apparent 'protest' in Skopje), we don't see such a reaction. As gloomy as it sounds, it does appear that chanting for a sporting event is more palatable than chanting for their rights. I mean, look how many of them were out on the streets to celebrate a sporting victory! Imagine what sort of impact that would have if they did it daily in the capital to make a point about how far down the drain Macedonia has been thrown by its incompetent and treacherous politicians?

[Vangelovski]

I am not sure how highly we should rate the fact that people were chanting 'Macedonia' in Macedonia or a foreign country, the same would happen in any other country where Macedonians reside or are visiting for a specific purpose (in this case, a sporting event). While it is patriotic, when it relates to Macedonian sovereignty it really is little more than chest-beating. The reason I say this is because when a specific event for the purpose of asserting themselves is organised (like this apparent 'protest' in Skopje), we don't see such a reaction. As gloomy as it sounds, it does appear that chanting for a sporting event is more palatable than chanting for their rights. I mean, look how many of them were out on the streets to celebrate a sporting victory! Imagine what sort of impact that would have if they did it daily in the capital to make a point about how far down the drain Macedonia has been thrown by its incompetent and treacherous politicians?

Not much to add to that.

[Bill77]

I am not sure how highly we should rate the fact that people were chanting 'Macedonia' in Macedonia or a foreign country,

It's very beneficial.

At foreign soil- we can't allow the words "fyrom" representing us. So it should be encouraged other nationals, media, sporting bodies, to hear who we really are. I cant believe you would not rate and promote the words chanted "Makedonia" highly.

Streets of Macedonia- Most important. its where the seed will grow and start spreading. The chants arouse emotions within, its especially important for those that never knew they had it in them. For once we are showing unity, people forget that they are VMRovci or SDSmajmuni, they feel "MAKEDONIA" "MAKEDONIA".

There is another video from the ploshtad in Prillep where the youth were singing (i'm sure it was sung in every city). The words were something like,
"izlezi momce, pravo na terasa, i pozdravi ja Goceta terasa, krnete race, visoko gore, nashe ke bide, i solunsko pole"

Now is it not beneficial to promote even if its through song, and even if a sporting match ignites it, to our youth "nashe ke bide, i solunsko pole"

These are important and nice reminders to our kids which don't get taught at school "allegedly" by DCH.

SOM, you know perfectly well in battle how important yelling and chanting is for soldiers moral and the effect it has on enemies.

While it is patriotic, when it relates to Macedonian sovereignty it really is little more than chest-beating.

Thats how it begins before it turns out to something bigger.

The reason I say this is because when a specific event for the purpose of asserting themselves is organised (like this apparent 'protest' in Skopje), we don't see such a reaction.

i gave my opinion on this.

Mabe now people start feeling good about them selves and who they are, then things could change. But don't cut them down at any sign of getting up (vangelovski) Greeks, EU do a fine job at it and don't need us helping them out.

We ask for ROM Citizens to show pride and self respect and even label them as Eurodonians. Now they show pride and Chant Makedonia, we say......."Ehhh what ever, you are fake patriots"

[julie]

There is a lot of disunity within Macedonia - both SDMS and VMRO have so much anti other party crap going on, it has caused dreadful separationism within the country
I dont care for the crap either party stand for, SDMS for signing sovereignty away, and Gruevski for promoting and enforcing it - the people are divided.

The basketball success has caused the people to unite in something, and for once they seem to be on the same page

Having said that, have asked the promoters of the claytons protest - the protest one has when not having a protest - if the event was cancelled why they did not advise, this has been a big disappointment for me

I will refute anyone - to tell me as a diaspora Macedonia to come to Macedonia and do something. My overseas trip I re-organised to be present on the 7th September to assist with handing out pamphlets etc Macedonia Square, and these people for reasons only known unto themselves not there
We now see who the true internet warriors are, full of shit!

What is it that needs to happen for Macedonians to actually come out in force in that same manner FOR SOVEREIGNTY

[Soldier of Macedon]

At foreign soil- we can't allow the words "fyrom" representing us. So it should be encouraged other nationals, media, sporting bodies, to hear who we really are.

You make it sound like Macedonians should be rewarded for chanting the name of their country - like it is something above and beyond that which is required by supporters in a sporting match, when in reality it should be an obvious expectation.

I cant believe you would not rate and promote the words chanted "Makedonia" highly.

Believe it, anybody can chant the word 'Macedonia', children possess that sort of 'patriotism' during a sporting match. What concerns me is the fact that this sort of passion isn't displayed when the sovereignty of Macedonia is called into question.

For once we are showing unity........

Oh come on....that sort of unity is shown everytime a Macedonian representation is playing, be it in football, basketball or whatever else.

.....people forget that they are VMRovci or SDSmajmuni, they feel "MAKEDONIA" "MAKEDONIA".

The problem is that nobody has ever tried to utilise this 'unity' so it can manifest itself into further action for a greater purpose - Macedonian sovereignty. The day after, everybody just goes back to their own little worlds. One sporting victory will not eradicate this mentality.

SOM, you know perfectly well in battle how important yelling and chanting is for soldiers moral and the effect it has on enemies.

Bill, what exactly are you talking about? The basketball game? Or the wider context that some of us are trying to address? In either case, chanting alone is nothing without action. Macedonians can chant all they like during a night of drinking after a sporting victory - how has that inspired anybody to follow up wiith some action with regard to Macedonian sovereignty the next morning?

Thats how it begins before it turns out to something bigger.

Really? Cite some examples of how this has happened in the past, because this isn't the first time that Macedonians have gathered to celebrate a sporting victory. In my opinion, you're putting way too much emphasis on this - like Macedonia needed a win in a basketball competition before Macedonians finally realised their patriotism. Seriously mate....if they don't strike while the iron is hot, it will get cold very quickly. As it does.

We ask for ROM Citizens to show pride and self respect and even label them as Eurodonians. Now they show pride and Chant Makedonia, we say......."Ehhh what ever, you are fake patriots"

You're generalising too much and you're missing the point. All those that deserve criticism should have it coming to them, irrespective of where they live. Our problem is not that Macedonians are showing pride, but that they can't replicate that same pride where it concerns their future. I am happy that the basketball team has reached this far, I am not happy to see the compromised ideological perspective of some supporters who chant 'Macedonia' and wave the flag of capitulation, and forget about their apparent patriotism the very next day.

[Risto the Great]

We ask for ROM Citizens to show pride and self respect and even label them as Eurodonians. Now they show pride and Chant Makedonia, we say......."Ehhh what ever, you are fake patriots"

If Macedonians in RoM are willing to modify Macedonia's name to get in to the EU, they are either "shit Macedonians" or "Eurodonians". I think "Eurodonians" affords them an appropriate level of respect.

If these same people are waving the Ventilator and chanting "Makedonija" at sporting events, I am left somewhat speechless. I think Macedonians in RoM have plenty to complain about and would hope they can bind together for more significant reasons than sporting events. The ethnic Albanians are doing a much better job with focusing on the important issues ... to Macedonia's detriment.

[Bill77]

If Macedonians in RoM are willing to modify Macedonia's name to get in to the EU,

Don't put them all in the same basket mate. You know that is not true. At worse it would be a minority including some politicians. So this argument is useless.

I know i know, next comes comments such as protests and Civil disobedience. Well we lack leadership, those we do have could not organise a root in a brothel. And for the ordinary person, 20 years of gutted and nothing to celebrate about, no longer have aspirations, pride or dignity. This now is the first time iv'e seen some pulse coming out of this Macedonian life. But people like sporting organisations, Greek media, Vangelovski, your self and SOM, love to down play this. SOM has congratulated the boys for their fine wins. Mate, this has potential if not already happened, to be more than a sporting event. The frigan Greek side shook the Hands of the Macedonians after the game as a sporting gesture, are you guys just as exited as they are?

The Ventilator.....we know it sucks mate, but this goes for everyone,
for fuck sake, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Let some numb skulls be proud of their state and its flag, look at the bigger picture.
The unity, the patriotic songs, the fighting and anger for the massive Kutlesh banner not to be taken away. You call this just a celebration of a sporting game? Sport...yeh right.
You don't here sporting songs such as "we are the champions" instead we hear fans, players in every city singing "edno ime imame" and "pak ke bide nashe, solunsko pole".

But good news for the likes of vangelovski and the Greek media, this will be over soon and you don't have to wary about Macedonia being promoted anymore. You guys the doctors can keep injecting sedation after that and keep telling them they are ill and have no hope, and don't let them ever recover.

Go on, now give me vangelovski's wild card, how i love the term fyrom and the ventilator.

Get serious fellas.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I have to agree with Bill on this one.
The negativity in this thread is ridiculous. Instead of focusing on the positives that have eventuated from the Macedonian Independence celebrations and our recent sporting achievements, we still look on the dark side of the moon. You cannot expect the mentality to change in the blink of an eye, and any progress should be positively encouraged and reinforced.
I for one would rather see the Macedonians celebrating on the streets, singing patriotic songs and chanting 'Makedonia,' than sitting at home and not doing anything at all.

The 'United Macedonia' banner and singing edno ime imame and izlezi momce isn't just for the hell of it. Perhaps some Macedonians have finally found something to be truly proud of, and if this catalyst is sporting success, then so be it. But these people know what they are singing about and the massive turnout for the Independence Day celebrations is a step in the right direction, despite the ventilator being waved around or weak politicians being present.

It seems that some people always look too far into these type of things instead of seeing it for what it is. Perhaps the 10th anniversary of 9/11 has unsettled a few of us and left us prone to conspiracy theories, this time in regards to 'fake patriots.'

I also agree with what the rest of you argue, but not in regards to this topic. Your arguments are quite valid and I understand that Macedonians need to essentially 'wake up,' but there's a time and a place for everything.
Tarnishing these kind of threads with constant negativity isn't going to assist in any way. We need to realise that short-term goals must be met before the long-term objectives can be fulfilled.

[George S.]

sOM has pointed to the crux of the matter.THe politicians are selling us out big time to our detriment.It reminds me of judas iscariout sellimg jesus out.The politicians have adopted the ventilator & have proposed a name change.Everyone is at their mercy.The only way out is some kind of revolution & it's needed badly before macedonia needs to wake up as it's being slowly destroyed.

[Risto the Great]

The negativity in this thread is ridiculous. Instead of focusing on the positives that have eventuated from the Macedonian Independence celebrations and our recent sporting achievements, we still look on the dark side of the moon.

I just think the positives are self evident.
The negatives need to be observed because the real fear is the growing emotional attachment of the Ventilator symbol to the modern Macedonian identity.

The news article that tried to equate FYRO with FEAR is an exquisite example of how low Macedonians can go in relation to this unique and unfortunate modern tragedy.

[julie]

I have a question, and there is method in my madness.
How are the basketball players sponsored, is it private sponsorship or government?

If it is private sponsorship, why doesnt the basketball team drape the kutlesh sonce around them in a win?
Am sure if they go to a group of Macedonian fans watching, they would be happy to provide it

Someone asked why security were put on to the Macedonians in the crowd on facebook, and who did. At first it was logical to assume the Greeks, and the more I think about it, the more I think it was the Macedonian government quashing any form of national pride, to accept ventilator for their upcoming new name change, all part of the FA

[Daskalot]

One thing to remember is that an elitist mind set and jargon will only alienate the bulk of the people.
We need to attract and in that way make people get a higher understanding thus they can be pro active, enlightened, and with the Truth on their side they will become invincible.