Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[George S.]

CT With the nuber of countries defaulting & more are expected i heard the bail out money in total that the eu had budgeted was around under 500 billion.I heard the eu was going to say no more & stop bailing out as it turns out just two countries defaulting is just around under 400 billion with more on the way the eu is not going to take any more eventual implosion from within will occur.
The other thing a lot of promises were made to member countries if they joined up promises of so much euro money for them.Hungary years ago was complaining that the eu never delivered of it's promise of 30 billion eu dollars.Did they get it or not""
I think too many things happening at once will be the death of the eu.There's not much that can be done as you can't bail out every man & his dog.Countries like greece deliberately getting into debt as they know they will get bail out but for how long.

[Pelister]

No one has been able to show that E.U membership will benefit Macedonia 'economically' or how; or whether in fact it is necessary or needed, given the fact that Macedonia can achieve much more through bilateral economic agreements with countries, such as Turkey, Slovenia, Serbia and others. The people who try to make the case that E.U membership will benefit Macedonia economically, are the same ones telling us that a Greek embargo will cripple us economically. Both cases are pieces of propaganda. The purpose or intent is to build some kind of economic case for continuing the 'negotiations', in the tradition of Meto Koloski and UMD. Whether one is propagating the case that E.U membership is essential for our economic prosperity, or whether Greece has crippling economic power over us (both unfounded), the propaganda is nevertheless effective, because each case is taken out of its historical and political context. I noticed that currency trader likes to assert that E.U membership will benefit us economically, even though there is no evidence it will. Furthermore, he neglects to mention the conditions that the E.U have put to the Macedonians, the context of colonial rule, ruthless suppression and extermination of our people and theft of our name - which is all 'built in' to the process of E.U membership and cannot be separated from it (unless someone was intending to deceive us). The Macedonians are being fed enough lies as it is, the last thing we need are Macedonians from the lunatic fringe of the diaspora, talking up the "supposed" positives these anti-Macedonian institutions will "apparently" offer us, or telling us E.U membership is economically the 'golden ticket' when there is no evidence for it.

[Risto the Great]

CT, I a presently in China and working on deals that shrink the EU so far out of my mind it may as well not exist. I don't have time to respond to you in detail at the moment but ask you to address my final previous comment to you which I believe you have avoided or only partially addressed:

CT, are we on the same page here?
Or are you up for it "warts and all" ..... which (translated) means are you up for EU Entry no matter what happens to the nation's sovereignty including its very name?

Your response was validating some kind of means to an end:

Each and every resolution will have to be judged independently and objectively.

Quite frankly, it would not be a stretch to imagine you would have been quite a pro Yugo boy in your day that it must still give a stirring in your loins when you think of the economic security that Uncle Tito adorned Macedonians with. I mean it was all good except for the bit about being Macedonian. Which can be "judged independently and objectively" too I would imagine. Personally, I think you cannot separate blackmail of an identity from economic promises. Especially when the promises are vague and the attacks on identity are clear.

[Risto the Great]

I think it should be a more inclusive name. For eu entry it should be Macedoniaeu, for UN it should be Macedoniun, for FIFA Macedoniafifa, for Greece it should be Macedoniafyrom. For Macedonians supporting DPMNE it should be Macedoniaskopje, and for Macedonians who have self respect ..... he should lobby hard for "Macedonia" .... but he seems to be all alone.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And for those that support SDS, Georgievski and Boshkoski, it should be Macedonianorthern

[Currency Trader]

George S said:

ct a lot of countries don't want membership because of sovereignity issues.

THe benefits of the eu are far less outweigh the huge expolitatation that takes place after.

In reality what macedonia wants is the handouts that go with it & there is a price to pay.You look at the economies of greece ,spain,Ireland more is to follow.In my view they had good intentions when they set the eu up but that's not enough.

When you say "a lot of countries" don't want membership, which ones do you refer to?

Can you share the specifics of what you mean that benefits are far less than the "huge exploatation" that takes place after a country joins EU?

As for the price paid for receiving investment funds, you give examples of Greece, Spain, Ireland.

I will repeat what I've said earlier - In regards to Greece, their own mismanagement of state finances, fiscal discipline or lack of accounting standards is not really connected to receiving investment funds.

Greece has never been, to my re-collection, a country that runs strict fiscal discipline. The fundamental problem lies that EU has not been strong enough to enforce accountability or supervision of certain standards. In addition, key member states, such as France and Germany have themselves exceeded, bent or altered certain rules of financial discipline.

So, yes, I would agree that EU has neglected the consequences from financial markets for being too lax. On the other hand, EU is far from being the only industrialized nations to have budget deficits on hand.


Spain is not really paying "the price" for receiving investment funds. They are suffering from a slow growth or come-back after the global financial crisis. In addition, financial markets have put a risk-premium on southern Europeans countries in association to Greece.

As for Ireland, they too are not paying the price for receiving investment funds, but rather being in a steep recession after a record-long expansion (10 years of high growth) and the result of global financial crisis and some unpleasant banking bail-outs. Bad things usually come to light after a pro-longed expansion.



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[Currency Trader]

Do you think that EU membership is a realistic option if Macedonia doesn't change its name?

Nothing is impossible and winds do change.

[Currency Trader]

Pelister said:

No one has been able to show that E.U membership will benefit Macedonia 'economically' or how; or whether in fact it is necessary or needed, given the fact that Macedonia can achieve much more through bilateral economic agreements with countries, such as Turkey, Slovenia, Serbia and others.

Has anyone been able to show that E.U membership will not benefit Macedonia economically? Perhaps you could give a try.

While Rome was not built overnight, early emperical research suggests that new members states (central & eastern European countries) have benefitted from expansion in trade and foreign direct investments (FDI) as they were about join EU - Although data is limited, economic integration between the older Member States (EU15) and the New Member States (+12, including Romania) has been developing progressively. The new states quickly became the EU’s second trade partner after the US, accounting for 12.3% of EU’s total external trade. At the same time, the EU is the most important partner for the new member states (including Bulgaria and Romania).

Serbia, Slovenia or Turkey, not your most technological or high-end capital goods countries - Moreover, an overwhelming majority of all central and eastern European counties, in addition to nordic countries have joined EU - Obviously, there must be something for them to join the largest regional market.





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[Soldier of Macedon]

Nothing is impossible and winds do change.

Can you give me a possible scenario of winds changing enough that Macedonia will not be required to change its name to enter the EU?

[Currency Trader]

Quite frankly, it would not be a stretch to imagine you would have been quite a pro Yugo boy in your day that it must still give a stirring in your loins when you think of the economic security that Uncle Tito adorned Macedonians with. I mean it was all good except for the bit about being Macedonian. Which can be "judged independently and objectively" too I would imagine. Personally, I think you cannot separate blackmail of an identity from economic promises. Especially when the promises are vague and the attacks on identity are clear.

Personally, I think you should start using facts and emprical research to support your claims on the various arguments in this thread. And if you're going to jump into subjects where specialized knowledge is required, make sure you know what you talking about.


Now, here are the unanswered questions:

1. How much is the EU debt for Macedonia?

2. What kind of debt are you referring to?

3. For what specific reasons will the foreign debt triple?

4. How did you arrive to a ”tripling” of debt - Do you have an economic model?

5. Every country has some form of debt on their national balance sheets, so WHY should Macedonia not have any debt, even if the debt is in EUR?

6. Anybody can post a chart, but what do you actually UNDERSTAND from the Bulgarian chart that you like?

7. What specifically has EU created for Bulgaria that you call "pretty picture of the magic"?

8. Which labour laws would make Macedonia less competitive if they were to join EU?

9. Which EU regulations would make Macedonia less flexible that you are referring to?


Added question:

10. In what way has the economic potentials (regarding EU) been vague as communicated by Macedonian government officials?



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[Currency Trader]

Can you give me a possible scenario of winds changing enough that Macedonia will not be required to change its name to enter the EU?

EU allowing Macedonia to join.

[George S.]

I was watching this documentary on the abc & they said that the eu will pull the plug on the bailouts at about 500 billion.At the moment 2 countries debt is nearly 400 billion.I think more countries are going to get into debt & will default once the eu pulls the plug that's the end.I read in one thread that finland is deciding on whether to pull the plug on bailouts it's got enough influence..

[Soldier of Macedon]

EU allowing Macedonia to join.

And how would that come about? You've already said 'winds changing', are you going to elaborate on that (how will they change, why will they change), or give me another 5 word response? Just want to know so I don't waste time questioning someone who is going be ambiguous with his responses.

[Risto the Great]

CT, I will enjoy answering your questions in due course but am finding it difficult with my phone presently whilst overseas. I like how you avoided any mention of the economic superiority of Yugoslavia vs Macedonia. I see some strange similarities. But anyway, I will guess how bad things can get in the EU, can you guess what the EU wants for Macedonia? Hint, look at their parliamentary resolutions.

[Currency Trader]

And how would that come about? You've already said 'winds changing', are you going to elaborate on that (how will they change, why will they change).

I have not said winds are changing. I said nothing is impossible and winds do change. There is a difference between winds do change and winds are changing. Nonetheless, how the change of winds will come about is another question and another subject.





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