Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

Oh yeah, Greece will pull out of an agreement that is nothing more than one-sided and utterly favourable to Greeks. Fat chance. Meanwhile Macedonians try to uphold the agreement in court.

Article 23 subsection 2:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf

This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive agreement, provided that after seven years either Party may withdraw from this Interim Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party.

Isn't it cheaper to simply say "Macedonia exercises its right to withdraw from this agreement in accordance with article 23 of the agreement."? Certainly cheaper than embarrassing the nation by going to court to try to enforce the agreement.

Macedonia could have pulled out in 2002 without violating any aspect of the agreement whatsoever. Almost 10 years later we still have apologists who think there is or was no other choice. Slave Macedonians .... rise from your servitude.

Oh, read the last paragraph of the agreement where it states the agreement would be written in the Macedonian language 2 months after it was already signed by Macedonia's traitors.

[Risto the Great]

Let it be said I support pulling out of the agreement no matter what terms it included.

[Volk]

Macedonia could have pulled out in 2002 without violating any aspect of the agreement whatsoever.

You realize Macedonia still did not have control of all of its territory during 2002 because of the 2001 conflict, yet you think this would have been an ideal time to pull out? You are kidding right?

[Vangelovski]

You realize Macedonia still did not have control of all of its territory during 2002 because of the 2001 conflict, yet you think this would have been an ideal time to pull out? You are kidding right?

The Macedonian state still does not control all of its territory. What difference does that make to the Interim Accord with Greece? Are you confusing the IA with the FA again?

[Risto the Great]

It has less control now arguably. But that really is not the point is it Volk?

[Volk]

The Macedonian state still does not control all of its territory. What difference does that make to the Interim Accord with Greece? Are you confusing the IA with the FA again?

If you cannot see the obvious connection of the IA with the local albanians you need to educate yourself on the issue.

It has less control now arguably. But that really is not the point is it Volk?

Sorry I did not realize that the police was not allowed to enter the vast majority of western Macedonia STILL..

The point is Macedonia should not be in the 'talks' which we can all agree upon, however timing also plays a factor.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Volk, what is the 'obvious' connection between the IA and Macedonia's ethnic Albanian minority?

[Vangelovski]

If you cannot see the obvious connection of the IA with the local albanians you need to educate yourself on the issue.

Maybe you should tell us about your latest conspiracy theory. Does it go along the lines that the Albanians' interests are so intimately alinged with those of Greece that all Greece needs to do is give them the green light and the Albanians will go to war, spreading fear and terror among the weak Macedonians who will then lose their country?

Even though you may be stupid enough to believe it, do you honestly believe the Albanians are stupid enough to put their own lives on the line for Greek interests? Do you honestly think that the Albanians would use a nonsensical Greek violation of Macedonian national sovereignty as a pretext to attack the Macedonian state when they have so many other potential justifications that would be much more politically savvy than the IA?

I cannot see why the Albanians would use the IA as a pretext for war, over all the other potential pretexts they have at their disposal. The idea that Macedonia would not get into the EU and NATO if it declared the IA null and void and that this would provoke the Albanians is idiotic. Macedonia is not going to get into the EU and NATO fullstop. Even if it changed its name and everything else that the Greeks wanted it to do, they still would never let Macedonia into these organisations. Why would they? It would be counter to Greek national interests and the Greeks are actually committed to protecting their national interests. Macedonia declaring the IA null and void changes nothing in relation to its membership of what is a bunkrupt socialist club and an irrelevant military alliance with too many competing interests. It does, however, reclaim national sovereignty and allow Macedonians to determine their own affairs, like any other free people.

[Volk]

Volk, what is the 'obvious' connection between the IA and Macedonia's ethnic Albanian minority?

The albanians are looking to pursue their national interests. These are EU and NATO entry and or greater albania. A cession of the IA does not automatically mean 'war' however back in 2002 it would have given them even more leverage for more 'rights' or excuse to raise arms again.

Vangelovski, still trying to tell people what I believe?? get a new hobby

[indigen]

If you cannot see the obvious connection of the IA with the local albanians you need to educate yourself on the issue.

Sorry I did not realize that the police was not allowed to enter the vast majority of western Macedonia STILL..

The point is Macedonia should not be in the 'talks' which we can all agree upon, however timing also plays a factor.

Stojanche Angelov: "...megjuto nie denes nemame kontrola na nashata teritorija, vo mestata kade shto zhiveaat Albancite Makedoncite ne smeat slobodno da se dvizhat i voopshto izbegnuvaat da se dvizhat i duri i policijata i armijata ima ogranicheno dvizhenje..."

10;00 min mark --->

YouTube - Intervju na 3zzz formirana nova politicka partija "Dostoinstvo".wmv

[Vangelovski]

The albanians are looking to pursue their national interests. These are EU and NATO entry and or greater albania. A cession of the IA does not automatically mean 'war' however back in 2002 it would have given them even more leverage for more 'rights' or excuse to raise arms again.

Vangelovski, still trying to tell people what I believe?? get a new hobby

Volk, do you deny that you have previously stated that Greece would support the Albanians?

If the Albanians want to get into the EU and NATO, how do you account for the fact that Macedonia is likely NEVER to enter those organisations? How will declaring the IA null and void affect the actions of the Albanians considering the above?

[Risto the Great]

The point is Macedonia should not be in the 'talks' which we can all agree upon, however timing also plays a factor.

I am not sure you are simply being mischievous with your other points. But in relation to the above point, is there any time between 2002 & 2011 when Macedonia should have simply followed the clause in the agreement which simply allows Macedonia to walk away from it? Or are you still convinced it is all about the timing and insist it is some time in the future?

I think I have pointed out how easy it is for Macedonia to NOT violate the agreement and still pursue its interests by leaving the agreement. It suits all moderates and some extremists to a degree. It does not suit anti-Macedonians. Where do you sit with this?

The agreement is called an INTERIM AGREEMENT, it has lasted 16 YEARS and the terms clearly state you could leave it after 7 years. Clearly it was meant to reward Macedonia for capitulating and even external parties that drafted it felt that after 7 years it wasn't worth using for toilet paper if nothing was resolved.

But the slave Macedonians instead go to court to insist the Greeks be their masters a little bit longer.

[Risto the Great]

Probably worth pointing out the obvious on this thread (from another post elsewhere):

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=94921&postcount=4

Article 23 subsection 2:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf

This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive agreement, provided that after seven years either Party may withdraw from this Interim Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party.

Isn't it cheaper to simply say "Macedonia exercises its right to withdraw from this agreement in accordance with article 23 of the agreement."? Certainly cheaper than embarrassing the nation by going to court to try to enforce the agreement.

Macedonia could have pulled out in 2002 without violating any aspect of the agreement whatsoever. Almost 10 years later we still have apologists who think there is or was no other choice. Slave Macedonians .... rise from your servitude.

Oh, read the last paragraph of the agreement where it states the agreement would be written in the Macedonian language 2 months after it was already signed by Macedonia's traitors.

[Volk]

Volk, do you deny that you have previously stated that Greece would support the Albanians?

If the Albanians want to get into the EU and NATO, how do you account for the fact that Macedonia is likely NEVER to enter those organisations? How will declaring the IA null and void affect the actions of the Albanians considering the above?

There is the possibility of greece supporting the albanians , Ahmeti and Bakoyanis had a series of meetings in case you forgot. This scenario warrants attention, if you dismiss it explain yourself.

I agree with you, EU and NATO will not be entered. A void IA agreement may increase ethnic tension due to the fact the albanians will need to reassess what they want (I have stated it in a above post)

[indigen]

There is the possibility of greece supporting the albanians , Ahmeti and Bakoyanis had a series of meetings in case you forgot. This scenario warrants attention, if you dismiss it explain yourself.

I agree with you, EU and NATO will not be entered. A void IA agreement may increase ethnic tension due to the fact the albanians will need to reassess what they want (I have stated it in a above post)

The following blog article by Sam Vaknin might be worth taking into account before persons like "Volk" and "fyrOM" continue to spread FUD:

Greek-Macedonian Name Issue Myths Debunked
blog:10811:0::0

Posted Feb 19, 2011 by ■ Sam Vaknin in World

In the absence of the glare of the global media, its coverage and exposure, the fourth-rate diplomats that stand in for the International Community in Macedonia ineffectually cajole its government with thinly veiled threats, Cassandra-like apocalyptic scenarios, and verbal bribery. To achieve their aims, they propagate three myths (not to say deceptions):


Myth number 1: The conflict initiated by Greece is “normal” and not intractable

The truth is that the “Name Issue” cannot be resolved because the diametrically-opposing positions of the parties occupy the same semantic and geopolitical space. Both fear for their cohesion and identity should they compromise.

The Greek demand - that Macedonia and, consequently, the Macedonians change their collective (national) name - is unreasonable ab initio. Unreasonable demands cannot be rendered reasonable by being modified or amended. Greek “flexibility” and “reasonableness” are, therefore, smokescreens behind which lurk irrationality and extremism.
Sovereign polities should never succumb to blackmail and extortion: not because of ethical or moral considerations or matters of national pride, but because concessions only tend to enhance the insatiability of blackmailers and extortionists. Macedonia gave in to Greek blackmail once (with regards to its flag), yet this did not slake Greece’s thirst for more.

The name issue negotiations consume vast and scarce resources, especially in terms of human capital. Macedonia is a poor country and this Greek diversion is proving to be lethal as far as its economic development and geopolitical prospects go.

In truth, Macedonia is winning the diplomatic and public opinion battle the world over. More than 120 members of the United Nations recognize it by its constitutional name and not a week passes by without a commiserating op-ed in some prime medium in the West. Greece looks bad: an extortionate bully in the throes of economic mayhem and domestic terrorism. Faced with such an asymmetry in global sympathy, why should Macedonia be the one to throw in the towel?


Myth number 2: A lack of progress (read: Macedonian capitulation) on the name issue will foster inter-ethnic unrest and worse

Ardent, well-choreographed protestations aside, the Albanians in Macedonia ought to be delighted with the lack of progress on both NATO and EU accession. The overwhelming majority of Albanians in Western Macedonia are enmeshed in activities which can only be charitably described as “informal”. The Albanians are the engine that runs the grey and black and criminal economies in Macedonia. EU accession will put an abrupt stop to all these lucrative endeavours and unravel networks that took decades to build and maintain.

Furthermore, the Albanian insurgency in 2001 was the outcome of copious nods and winks (and dollops of materiel) on the part of the United States and, to a lesser extent, the EU. No such support, implicit or explicit, is to be found today: the International Community is firmly and irrevocably committed to the Ohrid Framework Agreement and will not allow the Albanians to use weapons to try to alter its generous terms.

Albanian posturing concerning the Macedonian procrastination with regards to the Name Issue has to do with internecine strife between the two big Albanian parties: DUI and DPA. They both leverage the name issue and threaten civil war in order to re-divide the spoils of government on all levels.


Myth number 3: EU Accession is Macedonia’s ticket to instant and sustained prosperity

The EU is in the throes of a life-threatening crisis and the entire enlargement project is in ever-growing doubt. Even if the EU were to emerge unscathed from this predicament, its harried officials still regard the Western Balkans as a cesspit, an Ottoman-Byzantine-Oriental Muslim-infested relic in the heart of an otherwise civilized, genteel, and Christian Europe (read: West). The more bigoted of the EU members are going to drag the negotiations with the likes of Macedonia as they have been doing with Turkey for decades now.

Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.

[....]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/blog/10811#ixzz1FWPgi8Gp

For fair use only.

NB: it was also posted at following MTO thread: "International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece" [ http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...&postcount=446 ]