Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

Bushav/Coolski is an asset to the worldwide Macedonian community.
The article is excellent but the message needed to be reinforced at conclusion.
The Greeks created this problem merely for economic benefit. Discussions about antiquity are merely a smokescreeen for this economic agenda.

[Pelister]

Bushav/Coolski is an asset to the worldwide Macedonian community.
The article is excellent but the message needed to be reinforced at conclusion.
The Greeks created this problem merely for economic benefit. Discussions about antiquity are merely a smokescreeen for this economic agenda.

The fact is that the Greeks want to hold onto a part of Macedonia - the reason for doing this may well be economic, but there is more to it than that.

For mine, I don't care why they are doing it. What I care about is the consequences for the Macedonians, and Bushav doesn't give this enough thought.

It doesn't matter to me that the Greeks are doing what they are doing for economic reasons - what bothers me is how they are doing it. There is no point looking for 'a reason' - rather look at what they are saying, how they are saying it, and what this means for Macedonians. If they are saying ''Macedonia is Greek'' and use and manipulate history to prove it - I care less about the "why" and more about the effects of this for Macedonians.

The Macedonians will be left standing their wondering how they lost their identity - if they don't begin addressing how the Greeks plan to hold onto Greek occupied Macedonia. I couldn't care less about why they want to hold onto it/

So, its about drawing our attention away arguements (which are historical) that Greece uses to justify its invasion and occapation of a part of Macedonia.

This is where we have to counter them. So, the historical issues far outweight everything else.

There is no point Macedonians in Greece asking for human rights - while the dispossession of their native lands, and the Hellenization of their culture (which are historical issues), are brushed aside by politicians and people in UMd. Or, there is no point asking for human rights - while the E.U believes that Greece has a legitimate and rightful claim (based on historical grounds), to invade and occupy a part of Macedonia. There can be no trade off here - and this is precisely the problem with the "negotiations". How can you say that Greece's invasion and occupation is legitimate (on historical grounds), on the one hand, while asking for Macedonian human rights on the other? No one respects this bullshit. You can't have one without the other. What pisses me off is these politicians, and some people at Umd who don't understand historical "context" if it bit them on the bum.

The Greeks are winning the battle on historical grounds, and the Macedonians are too chicken shit to fight them on this front.

[Daskalot]

The dispute is artificially created by our southern neighbors to hide the truth(read what they did to Macedonia and the Macedonians).

[Risto the Great]

read what they did to Macedonia and the Macedonians

Macedonians need not take it so personally.
It was a land grab, nothing more evil than that. If we were "Southern Russians" they would have created equally stupid arguments to justify their land grab. We need to get over being the victims and bring this argument to the Greeks for all that it stems from.

[Pelister]

Why not "by pass" Greece ?

I've brought this up elsewhere, and was wondering what people on this forum think of it.

Why not work around Greece. Greece is confrontational, aggressive and insane.

The Macedonian government never had to confront them - why not "by pass" them.

If Greece doesn't want to invest in Macedonia or if it wants to blockade Macedonia or cause trouble for it in the E.U and NATO - let it.

The only thing the Macedonian government should be focusing on is its precious and valuable and little energy on, is reforming the country so that it gives foriegn busines incesntives to invest in Macedonia.

The Macedonian leadership should reject the negotiations, Greece and the E.U on the basissis that Greeces position is an attack on Macedonian soverinty and self determination.

What the military agreement with the U.S and Turkey has shown is that Macedonia does not have to be a member of NATO to be protected, and what Slovenian and Turkish investment in Macedonia over the next 5 years has shown is that the Macedonian State can prosper exponetially without the E.U and without Greece. If the Macedonian government can believe in this then it can believe it has a great future, and it can end the destruction now.
So it should cut all dealings with them.

[Risto the Great]

Absolutely.
Do the Ghandi thing in reverse.
Broadcast to the world how aggressive the Greeks are. Then refuse to enter into negotiations because of the Greek irredentism and arrogance.

[Pelister]

Absolutely.
Do the Ghandi thing in reverse.
Broadcast to the world how aggressive the Greeks are. Then refuse to enter into negotiations because of the Greek irredentism and arrogance.

Don't you think that Macedonia would be a far happier and far more properous place, if it was freed from Greece and freed from the E.U ??

[Risto the Great]

The USA thought it could do whatever it wanted and that its decisions were solely based on the welfare of just Americans. It has failed them magnificently and they will take a long time to recover. The Macedonians need not ignore the Greeks, but it also needs to look beyond those immature peasants particularly in areas of economic opportunity.

[Rogi]

We don't "really" have a military agreement with the United States. It's more of a Memorandum of Understanding, for future collaboration.

It is not some sort of Alliance/Defense agreement. Something of that sort, would have to pass through the US House and Senate.

What we have with the United States, is similar to the Agreement that Serbia had with NATO... while NATO was bombing Serbia.


With Turkey, that's a different story.

[Soldier of Macedon]

NATO says Macedonia's entry hinges on resolving name dispute

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2008/12/03/feature-01

NATO foreign ministers urged Macedonia on Wednesday (December 3rd) to step up its efforts towards resolving its 17-year-old name dispute with Greece in order to join the Alliance.

"We reiterate the agreement of heads of state and government at the Bucharest summit to extend an invitation to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as soon as a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue has been reached… and urge intensified efforts towards that goal," the ministers said.

Meanwhile, NATO "will continue to support and assist" the Macedonian government's reform efforts, the ministers also stressed in the final communiqué from their two-day meeting in Brussels.

Macedonia's NATO plans have stalled since the Alliance's Bucharest summit last April, when Greece vetoed a decision to invite the Balkan country to join, citing the unresolved name dispute. Greece fears recognition of the name Macedonia could encourage a territorial claim against its own province of Macedonia.

UN-mediated efforts to solve the name dispute intensified late last year. But numerous rounds of talks since have failed to produce a deal.

With no settlement in sight, Macedonia's foreign and defence ministers, Antonio Milososki and Zoran Konjanovski, have urged the Alliance to speed up their country's accession.

Macedonia's admission into the 26-nation bloc is "of extreme importance, not only for the future of our country but for the overall stability of the region," media reports Tuesday quoted the ministers as saying in a letter to NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer several days ago.

They, however, believed that "little has been done" since the Bucharest summit "to assess and address all the negative implications" from the decision to postpone a membership invitation.

Milososki and Konjanovski also reassured NATO that their country remains firmly committed to its entry bid, as it believes that "full Euro-Atlantic integration has no alternative".

Last month, Macedonia decided to sue Greece at the International Court of Jusice over its decision to block Skopje's NATO membership, saying this constituted a violation of a 1995 agreement between the two countries. Milososki and Konjanovski reassured de Hoop Scheffer that the lawsuit would in no way affect negotiations on the name issue.

Macedonia, they said, "remains strongly committed to finding a mutually acceptable solution" that would allow it to "fully integrate into the Alliance in a dignified manner while preserving our national interests".

Macedonia will continue to implement political and economic reforms, they said, stressing Skopje's commitment to the "process of building democracy and a functional multi-ethnic society based on the rule of law, good governance and sustainable economic development".

They also vowed that their country will continue to participate in NATO-led missions and to support international security efforts.

"We are committed to continue to strengthen our already visible participation, including the military one, in NATO-led and other international peace missions, thus acting as a responsible member of the international community, and to further contribute to Alliance interoperability," the ministers said.
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Both Nato and the EU are hopeless at doing the right and honourable thing, this name game will never end, like Gruevski said, the Greeks will never accept our Macedonian identity and language even if we do alter our name. That is the only fact in this stupid bi-lateral bullshit, we need to find a way to get out of it in a manner which will not harm us in the process.

[makedonin]

they should stick it to their ***

[Risto the Great]

So NATO understands the only limiting factor is the name dispute.
What a joke.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yet in the earlier days you would hear that the name dispute had nothing to do with Macedonia's entry into this moron-led organ of bananas, these days, despite our country being more ready than Albania and others to join Nato and the EU, we are hindered precisely because of this name game.

[Venom]

The German ambassador was on a tv program the other day on Macedonian television. She said something along the lines of "women change their names all the time, but they don't lose their identity."

Macedonia is a male then.

It's not just the name they are against. If it wasn't the name it'd be something else. They'd do anything to protect their little creation greece, and especially hide the atrocities committed by said creation that they let get away with.

They'd prefer we didn't exist, but the fact we do burns them, so they think if we change our name and everything they can pretend we don't.

After all, we're just a pawn in their game... you know the game, it's called "Attacking Russia to steal all their resources".

[Dimko-piperkata]

Kouchner: Name is condition for lifting visa requirements

/09/12/ 09:15

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said the unresolved name dispute was clearly Macedonia's biggest problem as far as its EU accession process is concerned.

Kouchner told a press conference in Brussels that regardless of the progress toward the European Union or toward visa-free travel, Macedonia has to solve the name row with Greece, Alsat M TV said.

"The problem of Macedonia, it's the name. Frankly, you can ask me about visas and about progress toward the EU, as long as the name issue is solved, you are knocking at the wrong door. This problem must be solved," Kouchner said.

After all these years of UN-mediated negotiations between Greece and Macedonia, the situation seems today "very, very complicated for such a simple problem," he added.

EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn, on the other hand, said the next year's elections are crucial to the country's progress toward the European Union.

"There must be a visible progress in reforms regarding elections and judicial reform in the country, but at the same time, a lot of work should be done. Next year's elections will be a crucial test, as they must be free and fair and in line with the international standards," Commissioner Rehn said.

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=134491&NrIssue=841&NrSection=10