Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[indigen]

2. to sent assurance to Macedonian people that despite the ongoing negotiations, the President will not succumb the pressure to change the name.

And where do you read that he/they is/are not WILLING TO CHANGE THE NAME FOR INTERNATIONAL USE?

[Bratot]

And where do you read that he/they is/are not WILLING TO CHANGE THE NAME FOR INTERNATIONAL USE?

Having different "international" name requires change of the constitution i.e. change of the state name, it is not posible in any other way.

To quote what Bill pointed before:

Therefore, once again I urge that it is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, being the guardian of our national sovereignty and our national dignity. Therefore, I would like to underline that as long as I am President of the Republic of Macedonia I will not allow this to happen.

[indigen]

Having different "international" name requires change of the constitution i.e. change of the state name, it is not possible in any other way.

Really? I think you are just trying to win Bill over to be in your favour (for some dubious reason) and you do not mind what arguments you are using!

If what you say above was the case, you would NOT have MFA (and thus the Mk government) proposing a name change to be effective upon EU entry as well as MANU saying that the 2008 proposal - Republika Makedonija (Skopje) was acceptable. See below:


МАНУ: Предлогот во основа прифатлив

Претседателството на МАНУ, во проширен состав со поранешните претседатели на МАНУ, го поддржа последниот предлог на медијаторот Метју Нимиц за името.

"Предлогот претставува прифатлива основа за постигнување согласност со Република Грција затоа што го поддржува уставното име на Република Македонија и ја афирмира македонската национална самобитност", се вели во соопштението на МАНУ. Академиците тврдат дека предлогот е компромис на македонската страна, но истовремено не ја преминува црвената линија. "Прифаќањето на овој Предлог не налага промени на Уставот на Република Македонија за уставното име на државата и на македонскиот национален идентитет", смета МАНУ.

Според нив, важно е што е предвидено слободно и неексклузивно користење на атрибутот "македонски", во национална, етничка, јазична, културна и друга смисла. Новопредложеното меѓународно име "Република Македонија (Скопје)", за меѓународна службена употреба, не е негација на уставното име", тврдат академиците.
"Со прифаќање на ова меѓународно име, ќе се надмине апсурдноста на досегашната привремена референца (ПЈРМ). Отфрлањето на овој предлог може да има крајно негативни консеквенции за Македонија", велат тие. Во МАНУ се зажгрижени дека земјата нема да може да ја користи самостојно скратено име Македонија, но сугерираат македонија да ги предолжи преговиоте до Самитот на НАТо во Букурешт. "Надлежните органи треба што побрзо да ги усогласат ставовите на нашата преговарачка страна и со нив да го запознаат медијаторот на овие преговори", препорачуваат академиците. Н.С.


"Makedonskite" politichari i "razgovorite za razlikite" povrzani so IMETO nashe...

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4827

As I see it, Gruevski was, IS and will forever remain a traitor (sell out)! He VOTED for the "Ramkoven dogovr" as a MINISTER in Ljubcho Georgivski's "Unity" Government, is fully committed to implementing ALL the previous treasonous deconstruction capitulationist agreements and is in coalition with UCK terrorists. On top of all this, he is now in the process of dealing Macedonia and Macedonians another hard (maybe even a final) blow to their existence as an ethnic and national entity.

Gruevski's MFA is proposing the following sell out deal:

ГРЦИЈА СЕ ОДНЕСУВА ИРАЦИОНАЛНО
Скопје, 8 Октомври 2010 година

Интервју на Министерот за надворешни работи, Антонио Милошоски, за германскиот дневен весник, “Suddeutsche Zeitung”


Значи изнаоѓањето на решение ќе биде многу тешко.

- Но, не и невозможно, кога политичките елити, владата и опозицијата ќе бидат во таквото решение убедени. Ние ги плаќаме трошоците околу спорот и ние сакаме истиот да се надмине.

Од НАТО Самитот во ноември не очекувате некаков сигнал?

- Не, но имаме еден предлог. Кога ние би направиле голема национална отстапка со цел да ги отпочнеме преговорите со ЕУ, мораме да бидеме сигурни дека Грција нема повторно да не блокира по четвртото или десеттото поглавје. Затоа, треба двата процеси паралелно да се одвиваат, така што дури по официјалниот прием на РМ во ЕУ би важело новото име. На тој начин, можеме да ја надминеме недовербата во целиот случај.

Велите Грција се однесува нерационално. Зошто тогаш во Скопје се поставуваат се повеќе статуи од Александар Велики? Тоа во Атина се сфаќа како провокација.

- Јас бев уште дете кога Македонија пред 20 години стана независна. Во тоа време не бевме толку концентрирани кон антиката. Но, колку повеќе Грција ја претставуваше историјата како забрането овошје за нас, толку поголема беше мотивацијата да се каже дека и ние не сме народ без корени. Тоа е веројатно комплекс на малите нации, мислам дека национализмот на едната страна може исто така да го разбуди национализмот на другата страна.

Let's compare it:


From my older posting:

The only difference if you wish to name it as such, is the "patriotic" burden of the image that VMRO have locked for itself, but they don't differ in anything else from their rivals in SDSM.

The game is played on how to sell the name but staying on rule, the only solution of this political riddle is: cowardly pass the decission on the citizens and make them believe they are to decide something.
It's a pure nonsense, to have the self proclaimed patriotic party asking the citizens whether they prefer to protect or injure their own identity.

What VMRO is offering is a gun to commit a suicide. Because they lack the balls for killing despite the SDSM.

What VMRO should have done is to disarm the posibility of changing the name.

Brate, what are you on about here and what exactly do you stand for?

Gruevski thread: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=266&page=17

[Bratot]

And what are you actually suggesting to be wrong in what I said?


I didn't understand what are you trying to achieve with the quotation of MANY? Do you want to convince us that changing the name for International purpose doesn't require change of the Constitution?

Are we talking about the President right now or?

Stop switching the channels for a moment.

Really? I think you are just trying to win Bill over to be in your favour (for some dubious reason) and you do not mind what arguments you are using!

Actually it's you who do not mind what arguments are using by quoting MANY and you can be sure it will not make up for your intelectual inability.

[Bratot]

As for Miloshevski I will state the same as before:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3974&page=4

This is the new propaganda spin served on our table by the same machinery of ESI:

"Find a solution that would delay the big concession"

"The two sides are not currently prepared for tough decisions and therefore we propose a solution that does not require both parties to make major concessions now" explained expert from the European Stability Initiative, Kristof Bender.

http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=279&person_ID=3

"Our proposal is not to change the name of the country for a promise to join the EU sometime in the future. This will be difficult, given the lack of trust between Skopje and Athens. We suggest something else: Macedonia to change its name to the Constitution, by name, for example, "Vardar Macedonia" or something similar, while standing provision that the name change will take effect the day when Macedonia becomes a member of EU. This also means that if Macedonia does not join the Union, the change will become ineffective."

http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=920101017401&id=9&setIzdanie=22087

The question is whether Milosevski is part of ESI?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

You're up to your old tricks again. You're pushing the same VASSAL arguments that our VASSAL politicians are. I'm not even going to go into the idiotic reasoning behind your latest statement because I think anyone that exercises even a small portion of reason can see it for what it is, but you are now suggesting that Macedonia cannot have one name for international use and another name for domestic use (which will also be used in the constitution). If this is so, how then is it that the current situation exists, in which Macedonia uses 'FYROM' internationally and 'Macedonia' domestically? According to your (idiotic) reasoning, Macedonia cannot use FYROM for international use and Macedonia for domestic use (and therefore Ivanov is not really suggesting what he in fact is suggesting), yet this has been the situation for the past 15 years. How is that possible, according to YOU?

Do you even see the disassociation of what is in fact happening and what you perceive to be happening? Do you see the subtle pro-VASSAL propaganda that you consistently slide into your posts? Do you see how DPMNE stating that they will not change the constitution with a view to changing the state name is just BS, because they have already changed the name for international use and kept a "constitutional name" for domestic use? Do you see how many times we have been over and over and over and over this "constitutional name" business and you are still pushing the same rubbish? Do you see why people think that you are a VASSAL PUPPET?

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You're up to your old tricks again. You're pushing the same VASSAL arguments that our VASSAL politicians are. I'm not even going to go into the idiotic reasoning behind your latest statement because I think anyone that exercises even a small portion of reason can see it for what it is, but you are now suggesting that Macedonia cannot have one name for international use and another name for domestic use (which will also be used in the constitution). If this is so, how then is it that the current situation exists, in which Macedonia uses 'FYROM' internationally and 'Macedonia' domestically? According to your (idiotic) reasoning, Macedonia cannot use FYROM for international use and Macedonia for domestic use (and therefore Ivanov is not really suggesting what he in fact is suggesting), yet this has been the situation for the past 15 years. How is that possible, according to YOU?
Do you even see the disassociation of what is in fact happening and what you perceive to be happening? Do you see the subtle pro-VASSAL propaganda that you consistently slide into your posts? Do you see how DPMNE stating that they will not change the constitution with a view to changing the state name is just BS, because they have already changed the name for international use and kept a "constitutional name" for domestic use? Do you see how many times we have been over and over and over and over this "constitutional name" business and you are still pushing the same rubbish? Do you see why people think that you are a VASSAL PUPPET?

Your constant style of searching conspiracy in the debate is aimed to cover up for your ignorance and inability to provide other arguments.

Your assertion that "FYROM" is our 'international name' is roughly incorrect, first by constant employing the use of the acronym as a name serving the Greek cause to avoid mentioning 'Macedonia'.

Second, by your utter ignorance of the nature of the provisional reference and its range of usage.

Third, you are confirming just once again your ignoratio elenchi and complying with the spin that we are actually negotiating replacement for "FYROM" and not in fact our state name.

That's entirely in line with the anti-Macedonian propaganda trying to deceit our people by pushing through such rhetoric.

On you queston:

How is that possible, according to YOU?

the answer is:
With violation of the right of states to non-discrimination in their representation in the organization of universal character, expressed in an unambiguous way in Article 83 of the Vienna Convention on representation of states by forcing our state to use imposed derogated legal personality within the UN system and its relations with other international subjects.

Beside our corrupted authorities, it's also our general ignorance and our lethargic attitude that allowed this to get through without counter action and appropriate protest.

But after these many times that has been explained to you over and over and over and over again you can't call on your ignorance anymore and your pushing the same rubbish rhetoric is more of a indicator of your mischievous agenda that you hide under your skirt.

Your constant effort to make mischief and to divide the membership on this forum, your hostile approach and your clear misadvise on Macedonian matters along with the misconstruction of arguments has been very strong evidence against yourself.

Before arbitrarily attaching etiquettes to others it's your real intentions that should be questioned first.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, no matter what you write or how you spin it, FYROM is Macedonia's international name. The constitution of Macedonia has nothing to do with it, nor do bi-lateral agreements between countries.

If you are going to question agendas, why not question your own. How can you make what I have written above look good?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

You're convulsing so much garbage its difficult to keep up. You are now suggesting that "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is somehow better than "FYROM" because the Greeks prefer "FRYOM" in order not to say Macedonia and that somehow this name is "provisional" and of limited use.

How and why is the long form of FYROM "better" than the acronym, according to YOU? Just because it includes the word 'Macedonia'. Are they not equally repulsive for the reason that they are both violating the free will of the Macedonian people? How is FYROM "provisional" in any sense of the word (seeing it has been in use for 17 years and has no nominal expiry date)? How is it of limited international use?

Getting back to the original question, how is it possible for Macedonia NOT to have an international name and a domestic name when this is in fact happening at the moment? The answer you provided partially explains why it should not be forced to have two names, but does NOT explain the FACT that Macedonia is currently using TWO names, one for international use and one for domestic purposes and some bilateral instances, unless of course you are living in the matrix.

This goes all the way back to the original discussion of Ivanov not being a vassal politician and a traitor. You claim that he has no intention of changing Macedonia's name because it is not possible to have an international name without changing the constitution, and yet that is EXACTLY what is happening right now and has been the case for 17 years. The fact that Ivanov continues to ignore matters of natural law only shows that he is both willing and able to accept a name change.

Besides, Ivanov has never stated that he would not change the state name or have one name for international use and another for domestic use. He has only stated that he is willing to come to a solution that will not infringe (in his perverted mind) on the Macedonian identity, language and culture. The key word here is that he is WILLING TO FIND A COMPROMISE/SOLUTION FOR THE STATE NAME that in HIS mind is "acceptable".

Perhaps YOUR skirt is hiding a much larger and much more mischievous agenda than mine.

[George S.]

It's amazing how politicians say one thing & do another.Yes they favour no name change but why are they negotiating for a name change.We know it's only a matter of time & also entry to the eu & nato is linked with it.The politicians seem to be placing a huge emphasis on getting into eu or nato at the peril of losing their name.

[Bill77]

The key word here is that he is WILLING TO FIND A COMPROMISE/SOLUTION FOR THE STATE NAME that in HIS mind is "acceptable".

Vangelovski,

The Greek say the same thing (willing to find a compromise/solution) we know that will also never happen. I know we don't give a shit what the greeks think or do, My point is its all politics, its a case of tell them (the west) what they want to hear.

Unfortunate fact is, its a criteria (Having talks with Greece) forced by the west, if we are to enter EU and Nato. Entry to these clubs are what the citizens of Macedonia are Frothing at the mouth for.

There are three type of Macedonia groups regarding the negotiation.
A)The majority calling for the end negotiations are from the diaspora and there would be a small margin in the republic.
B)There are many, (which will be majority in the republic) calling for entry to these clubs but not if we would have to change our name.
C)Then there are those minority that don't care about the name.

I will say it again, until those in group B realize it's not possible what they want, and team up with the group in A, The government will continue its coarse.

[Bratot]

It seems you don't like the taste of your own medicine

I do mind your joined efforts to ensure implicit obedience from the rest of the members, by wilfully appointing yourself for absolute authority, and indeed, we are witnessing increasing displease against your intellectual persecution.

It's high time you reconsider your attitude or to meet the same destiny of Maknews.


Vangelovski,

all reasonable efforts to establish normal communication with you have failed so far, you are not interested in Macedonian matters as you care only for your hurted ego when proved to be wrong.

Risto,

unfortunatelly, you failed numerous times in keeping basic objectivity, and your assistance in the failure of Vangelovski will come back as a boomerang to you.

I will not put up anymore with your infatuation to dirty my contribution on this forum and the general cause.

There are moments like this when we are compel to chose our separate ways, with a hope that my leaving will provide better times for your forum.


In spite of the coming year, I wish you a happy and successful New Year.

Pozdrav,
Mihail

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, I still hope your English is so bad that you are not conveying whatever message it is you are really trying to say. But I will translate my interpretations of some of your statements for you:

Your assertion that "FYROM" is our 'international name' is roughly incorrect, first by constant employing the use of the acronym as a name serving the Greek cause to avoid mentioning 'Macedonia'.

Translation:FYROM is not our international name (kind of). Especially when it is FYROM and not former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Second, by your utter ignorance of the nature of the provisional reference and its range of usage.

Translation:The provisional reference applies only in limited circumstances and or situations.

Third, you are confirming just once again your ignoratio elenchi and complying with the spin that we are actually negotiating replacement for "FYROM" and not in fact our state name.

Translation:You have incorrectly concluded that we are negotiating a replacement for FYROM when in fact we are dealing with negotiations about the State name of Macedonia.



You need to look objectively at what the hell you are saying. You seem to have such a deep desire to sound intelligent that you are often lost in your own words.

What is not clear about FYROM being Macedonia's international name? How "roughly incorrect" is this?
If my translations are correct, you sound like the pathetic, ignorant, mentally challenged, slave-mentality Macedonians in Macedonia who say "I know what I am, nobody is going to tell me I am not Macedonian, they can call me whatever they want .... I know what I am."

If you feel you are taking some kind of moral high ground in this matter by leaving the forum, I would suggest you try to explain yourself in the above context first. Otherwise, you should really stay out of Macedonian matters because your intentions appear to be dangerous or at best nonsensical.

[Vangelovski]

For those new to the threat, Bratot is defending Ivanov for not ending the negotiations and arguing that the Macedonian identity can be safe guarded so long as the "right" name compromise is found. In doing so, he's run so many circles around the issues involved, that he has not only confused everyone else, but I think he's confused himself. I'll let his comments and my rebuttles stand as they are.

[Rogi]

Bratot, how does the existing situation, or existing reality, that Macedonia has an International name which differs from its' actual State name, fit within your assertion that a situation exactly identical to the current, cannot exist?

According to the United Nations, the name by which Macedonia is recognised, is 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'.

"The Republic of Slovenia was admitted as a Member of the United Nations by General Assembly resolution A/RES/46/236 of 22 May 1992.
By resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to admit as a Member of the United Nations the State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over its name."

http://www.un.org/en/members/#t

This means, the internationally recognised and used name for the Republic of Macedonia, is different from the official name of the state that is determined by the Macedonian people and subsequently enshrined in the Macedonian Constitution.

Therefore, the situation that you have said cannot exist, in fact already exists and has so for 17 years.

Furthermore, there are numerous instances where the internationally used name of a state, differs from their official state name as determined by their people and as subsequently enshrined in their Constitutions. A number of these examples have been posted on this forum in previous threads, some of those examples were in fact posted by you.


I am not sure that I have followed your argument correctly and I ask that you explain it more concisely, because I find it difficult to believe that you are suggesting that the situation which already exists, cannot exist.

That is, I may have mistakenly interpreted your argument as one suggesting Macedonia cannot have a name for its' own internal use and a separate name by which it is referred to in the United Nations? That is already the current situation.


As a side note, I think that by now there should be no doubt by anybody on this forum that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia is indeed committed to finding what they describe as a 'solution'. The 'solution' they are working toward is a replacement of the 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia', for some other term they deem more acceptable, but in any case, an international name that is not 'Macedonia', or more bluntly, an international name for the Macedonian State, that is different from the official name 'Macedonia', different from the name determined by the Macedonian people. This is, regardless of who tries to spin it and how, a name change. Only this time, the Macedonian people wont be lied to with stories of '3 month interim', rather it would be a permanent decision for a new name for the state of the Macedonian people, or perhaps more correctly, a final nail in the coffin in which the idea of a Macedonian state for the Macedonian people, is buried.