Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Bill77]

Bill77,

Haven't you been defending Ivanov in a number of posts? Now you say you don't actually know what his position is? What were you defending up until now?

Yes i have, when i felt certain criticism was over the top. I did also say, i could also post negative points about Ivanov. Some may call it flip flopping, I look at it as calling a spade a spade, and give credit where credit is due. I am sure iv'e defended a Greek before, (You might have to search hard) it does not make me a Philhellene.

Regarding RTG question "WTF is the President's position?"
(which i might have missed RTG was actually having a dig at Ivanov)

And then my response that you question "Good question. We can only guess. I would assume they are referring to Ivanov not signing away "YET" as some sort of stance."
Yeh i suck at putting words together, but have a look at the word "THEY are referring to" i used in my sentence. I was refering to the people that created the poll and i questioned the Poll and the actual question they would have asked. If you look a few posts further back, you will again see evidence that my criticism is aimed towards the poll

Again, what a useless question. It poses more misleading results and confusion rather than answers.
I wished the question posed to the respondents was,
"Do you approve with the Presidents position on continuing negotiation"

I know what Ivanov stance is (although can't tell deep inside what he really feels) and i have made my position clear and put money where my mouth is "End Negotiations" But before i bring up my next point, Can i ask you a question? would you look at this result 53.4% back Ivanov position on the name dispute with Greece, as a good result for the President?

[Bill77]

Can i ask you a question? would you look at this result 53.4% back Ivanov position on the name dispute with Greece, as a good result for the President?

Well i will jump the gun and give my response.



Well i think the 53.4% would be looked at as a encouraging result for Ivanov to stay the course.
The other 46.6% can be devided between "No he should give in to the Greeks" "Undecided" "Refuse to answer because neither option suits"

Now the main reason i brought up this poll is, Many have sugested that most Macedonians want to pull out of the talks. Until we start getting polls
that clearly state "Should the negotiatians End" we will not see pressure put on the current government.

Now, this poll convinces me many Macedonian citizens are happy with the status quo (keep negotiating, just stand firm)

I am also convinced many Macedonians in the diaspora want the negotiations to end.

Now if people think that Ivanov is President to serve the Diaspora and go against the citizens, you are kidding yourself.
If people take this comment (which is fact), as i am defending Ivanov in anyway, then again people are kidding themselves.

If people don't think that this problem is in the citizens hands and only they can change things, than again they are kidding themselves.

If people think the diaspora can do anything more than influence the citizens by educating them and hope for the best....again kidding your selves.

[George S.]

it's like leading sheep to the slaughter house.Has the macedonian media picked this up??
By the way bill thanks for picking that up.

[indigen]

Yes i have, when i felt certain criticism was over the top. I did also say, i could also post negative points about Ivanov. Some may call it flip flopping, I look at it as calling a spade a spade, and give credit where credit is due. I am sure iv'e defended a Greek before, (You might have to search hard) it does not make me a Philhellene.

And I might add the YoYo analogy as well! :-)

Starting page 17 of the 'Gruevski' thread, if one was to go over what has been ALREADY quite well discussed and covered, it can be seen that Grujo an Co are ready, WILLING and ABLE to sell out on the name issue and have been, are and will continue to sell out Macedonian national interests as part of the conspiracy to DECONSTRUCT the Macedonian national and ethnic entity.

Regarding RTG question "WTF is the President's position?"
(which i might have missed RTG was actually having a dig at Ivanov)

And then my response that you question "Good question. We can only guess. I would assume they are referring to Ivanov not signing away "YET" as some sort of stance."

We have already been through ALL this only recently and whilst Ivanov and Grujo are ready to change the name for INTERNATIONAL USE, the GRKS are after "erga omnes" (a name for ALL USE!) and thus no deal yet.

I know what Ivanov stance is (although can't tell deep inside what he really feels) and

Are you sure you know and UNDERSTAND his position?

i have made my position clear and put money where my mouth is "End Negotiations"

Yet you are supporting Ivanov and Co who are DEFINITELY PROPOSING a name change as acceptable but with the proviso it goes through a referendum, where everyone (including non-Macedonians) who is a citizen has a vote.

But before i bring up my next point, Can i ask you a question? would you look at this result 53.4% back Ivanov position on the name dispute with Greece, as a good result for the President?

None of these polls can be trusted as they are organised by forces and factors with anti-Macedonian agendas.

[Bill77]

Yet you are supporting Ivanov and Co who are DEFINITELY PROPOSING a name change as acceptable but with the proviso it goes through a referendum, where everyone (including non-Macedonians) who is a citizen has a vote.

I am not supporting Ivanov and co on negotiations or any sort of name change, no matter how you twist it. All i am trying to do is become fair and balanced. If i was to put my hand in my pocket and help finance (which i did) the AMHRC/MHRMI campaign of end negotiations, obviously i have something against the current government lead by Ivanov and co and clearly i do not support the negotiations.

But what i did support and would love to see more of, are comments Ivanov made recently,(which i will repost some again and again if need be)

Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.

We stand ready to bridge the differences in a European manner. However, this also means focusing on the fundamental right of the state. We are citizens of a European country and we require Greece, being a member of the European Union, to apply European approach towards us. Therefore, once again I urge that it is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, being the guardian of our national sovereignty and our national dignity. Therefore, I would like to underline that as long as I am President of the Republic of Macedonia I will not allow this to happen.

We are fatefully experiencing the old wisdom - nomen est omen - the essence is in the name. Our name reflects an essential part of the Macedonian identity. Our ancestors were faced with much greater pressure, but they have never succumbed, with great difficulty they have left us what we need to preserve today for the future generations.

Responsibility of every relevant politician in the Republic of Macedonia is not to abuse the Greek-Macedonian bilateral dispute in the context of EU and NATO integration. We should not encourage disunity among citizens. It is true that the daily politics concerning this issue causes certain damage internally, but I would like to stress that the main reason this issue is still not resolved lies in some Greek politicians, not in the politicians from the Republic of Macedonia. It is time to abandon the stereotypes and prejudices from the past for the sake of our common future........ we need to be united, unified, to have single position and with concerted efforts to endure on the road ahead of us.

As far as defence is concerned, I am particularly proud of the Army of the Republic of Macedonia, which in the last two decades of its existence proved to be a worthy successor of the insurgents and fighters of the two Ilindens

Now Indi, apart from the reference he used "Republic", can you find anything wrong with what he said and would you encourage this type of talk?

Now if you can find something wrong and your answer is no to the second part of the question, then you can't be taken serious anymore well not by me anyway.

But if you can't find anything wrong, and answer yes to encouraging this type of thinking by Ivanov, then i am afraid you too will be looked at as a yo yo just like me.

But in reality, all we are doing is being honest.

[Vangelovski]

Bill77,

What is the difference between Ivanov telling YOU want YOU want to hear and then doing the opposite and UMD telling YOU what YOU want to hear and then doing the opposite?

Ivanov says a lot of things - so do the rest of our vassal politicians. But when have they done what they are obligated to actually do?

Further, until recently you were defending Ivanov as a genuine patriot. Yet a few posts back, you admitted that you do not know what he stands for. Which is it? Do you know what he stands for and you believe he is a patriot, or are you unsure of what he stands for and he may not be the patriot you thought him to be afterall?

[George S.]

those that capitulate on the name will be traitors,they'll get the same treatment that gligorov got & that is blowing them up to smithereens.

[Eddie_rebel]

Да не отворам нова тема ќе ставам во оваа. Иницијатива Франција речи Македонија.

Иницијативата има подршка од Обединета Македонска Дијаспора.

Во зависност од тоа до кого го праќате писмото искористете или само Madame (за жена) или само Monsieur (за маж).

Писмо до

Амбасада на Франција во Македонија
[email protected]

Претседател на собрание на Франција
[email protected]

Листа на Пратеници - Линк

Мисија на Франција во ООН, Њујорк
[email protected]

Мисија на Франција во ООН, Женева
[email protected]
[email protected]

Премиер на Франција - Линк

Мисија на Фрaнција во ЕУ
[email protected]




madame, monsieur,

au nom des citoyens de la république de macédoine, nous vous demandons respectueusement de cesser d'utiliser la référence temporaire qui est attribuée à notre pays (ex-république yougoslave de macédoine) en remplacement de notre véritable nom.

En tant que citoyens de la république de macédoine, nous estimons que chaque pays a le droit de décider lui-même de son nom sans intervention ou ingérence externe. C'est la principale raison pour laquelle nous prions la france, tout comme d'autres pays, d'appeler la république de macédoine par son seul nom constitutionnel valide.

Cela fait environ 20 ans que la république de macédoine est un pays indépendant et il est très important de noter que tous les pays faisant partie de l'ancienne yougoslavie reconnaissent le nom constitutionnel de la macédoine et non l'appellation qui est donné à notre pays par la grèce.

En fait, c'est plus de 130 pays à travers le monde qui reconnaissent notre pays sous son nom constitutionnel république de macédoine. Nous croyons que le temps est venu pour la france de suivre cette même voie et de reconnaître la macédoine sous son nom constitutionnel. Cette initiative contribuerait au renforcement des relations amicales déjà existantes entre nos deux pays et aux efforts de stabilisation de la région des balkans.

Notre patrie n'a pas d'intentions expansionnistes ou de désirs de s'ingérer dans les affaires intérieures de ses pays voisins, contrairement à ce qui a déjà été affirmé dans le débat avec la grèce entourant le nom officiel de la république de macédoine. La macédoine est le seul pays qui est victime d'injustices et d'inégalités dans ce conflit.

Nous estimons que tout pays a un droit garanti de choisir son propre nom et il semble malheureusement que cela n'est pas le cas pour la macédoine depuis la proclamation de sa souveraineté en 1991. Dans ce contexte, tout changement de nom de la république de macédoine serait considéré comme une véritable insulte aux yeux des citoyens de notre pays.

Il est important de souligner que, comme le stipule la résolution 817 de l'organisation des nations-unies, la référence provisoire accordée au nom de la république de macédoine ne devrait être utilisée que dans les organisations internationales, car faut-il le rappeler, cette référence n'est pas permanente.

Le nom de notre pays est la république de macédoine. S'il vous plaît, nous aimerions que vous respectiez ce nom tout comme nous, citoyens de la république de macédoine, nous vous respectons.

Je vous prie d'agréer l'expression de mes sentiments les meilleurs,



Почитувани

Ние граѓаните на Република Македонија во името на правдината сакаме да упатиме апел кон вас да престанете да ја користите привремената референца (Бивша југословенска Република Македонија) како замена на нашето име.

Ние граѓаните на Република Македонија сметаме дека секоја земја има право сама да одлучува за своето име, без притоа во тоа да им се мешаат надворешните фактори. Исто како што ние не смееме вашата земја да ја ословуваме со друго име освен она коешто ви е во уставот, така и другите земји треба да ја ословуваат нашата татковина со нејзиното уставно име - Република Македонија.

Во услови кога Република Македонија речиси 20 години е самостојна и суверена земја, смешно е од сите бивши југословенски републики само на неа да и се наметнуваат придвките "бивша Југословенска".

Над 130 земји во светот ја признаваат нашата татковина под нејзиното уставно име. Време е и Франција да го следи тој тренд и да ја признае Република Македонија под нејзиното уставно име. Со тоа ќе се придонесе во зајакнувањето на пријателските односи помеѓу нашите две земји и за стабилизација на целиот балкански регион.

Нашата татковина не е таа која се меша во внатрешните работи на некоја од соседните земји, уште помалку бара некоја земја да си го смени името. Република Македонија е таа која е жртва на непринципиелноста и неправичноста.

Загарантираното право на избор на сопствено име за нашата татковина се повредува со именувањето на Република Македонија под привремената референца. Секое такво преименување на Република Македонија од нас граѓаните се оценува како навреда.

Реферецата под која Република Македонија беше примена во ООН е за да се користи само во ООН, како што стои и во резолуцијата 817. Исто така сакаме да истакнеме дека привремената референца е привремена референца, а не име.

Името на нашата татковина е Република Македонија. Ве молиме да го почитувате тоа исто како што и ние граѓаните на Република Македонија ве почитуваме вас.

Со почит

[Bill77]

Bill77,

What is the difference between Ivanov telling YOU want YOU want to hear and then doing the opposite and UMD telling YOU what YOU want to hear and then doing the opposite?

Difference is, Ivanov said what he did in his Annual Address in front of parliament where the whole world can see. This type of situation is harder for him to hide. Where as UMD, tells us what we want to hear on MTO, while infront of a larger audience and politicians, they change their tune.

Ivanov says a lot of things - so do the rest of our vassal politicians. But when have they done what they are obligated to actually do?

There is a big difference from what Ivanov says compared to the opposition. Currently you can't put Ivanov in the same basket with the rest of the politicians.

I also would not put him in the Hero basket, but i don't see him like you would (which is obvious) and i do see that If their is anyone that can be influenced by the people, its Ivanov. We would have a better chance to get our way if to took the streets with Ivanov in power than if someone else currently was in his position.

Finally, what are they obligated to do? Do you mean as a Macedonian? or as a politician representing the citizens.

Further, until recently you were defending Ivanov as a genuine patriot.

He shows Patriotic tendencies, but does have flaws needed ironing out. And again he is someone we have a better chance to work with until we find someone better.

Yet a few posts back, you admitted that you do not know what he stands for. Which is it? Do you know what he stands for and you believe he is a patriot, or are you unsure of what he stands for and he may not be the patriot you thought him to be afterall?

Speaking of a few posts back, i answered this question a few posts back from this repeat question of yours. Here it is again.

Regarding RTG question "WTF is the President's position?"
(which i might have missed RTG was actually having a dig at Ivanov)

And then my response that you question "Good question. We can only guess. I would assume they are referring to Ivanov not signing away "YET" as some sort of stance."
Yeh i suck at putting words together, but have a look at the word "THEY are referring to" i used in my sentence. I was refering to the people that created the poll and i questioned the Poll and the actual question they would have asked. If you look a few posts further back, you will again see evidence that my criticism is aimed towards the poll

I have more of an idea than not, on what he stands for.

Or more on what he does and why he does it to be precise. But i would have to repeat what i already wrote.

[Vangelovski]

Bill77,

So what if Ivanov made a speech in Parliament?? What does the "size of the audience" matter? He still supports the negotiations. Can you see the difference between words and actions??

If you know Ivanov's position, how can you claim he has "patriotic tendancies"? Because he says what YOU want to hear and then continues undermining our national sovereignty?

Which citizens, other than Macedonian citizens, do you think Ivanov obligated to represent?

[indigen]

I am not supporting Ivanov and co on negotiations or any sort of name change, no matter how you twist it. All i am trying to do is become fair and balanced. If i was to put my hand in my pocket and help finance (which i did) the AMHRC/MHRMI campaign of end negotiations, obviously i have something against the current government lead by Ivanov and co and clearly i do not support the negotiations.

But what I did support and would love to see more of, are comments Ivanov made recently,(which i will repost some again and again if need be)

Whitewashing their (Ivanov's and Gruevski's and Co) treasonous deeds does not make for any balanced opinion, IMHO!

NOTHING IVANOV STATED IN HIS SPEECH/ADDRESS MOVES AWAY FROM THE FACT OF HIS/THEIR WILLINGNESS FOR CHANGING THE NAME OF MACEDONIA FOR INTERNATIONAL USE!!! If one reads that speech critically, they can/will clearly see the obvious intention of what Ivanov and Co are willing to do - change the name of Macedonia! That being the case, should they not be condemned for it and treated as any traitor should be?

Now Indi, apart from the reference he used "Republic", can you find anything wrong with what he said and would you encourage this type of talk?

You first need to learn to comprehend the doublespeak inherent in what you posted above and also what they are currently practising and implementing and the consequences from those anti-Macedonian deeds.

Now if you can find something wrong and your answer is no to the second part of the question, then you can't be taken serious anymore well not by me anyway.

But if you can't find anything wrong, and answer yes to encouraging this type of thinking by Ivanov, then i am afraid you too will be looked at as a yo yo just like me.

But in reality, all we are doing is being honest.

IN REALITY, IT IS A POISONED CHALICE (taken only by those illiterate in treasonous Mak political doublespeak) that Ivanov and Grujo are offering and NOTHING MORE - NO IFS, NO BUTS!

[Bill77]

Bill77,

So what if Ivanov made a speech in Parliament?? What does the "size of the audience" matter? He still supports the negotiations. Can you see the difference between words and actions??

Its harder to weasal his way out of something when its said infront of the world, than it would be if something is said in a local paper or radio station. Regarding his actions, read bellow.

If you know Ivanov's position, how can you claim he has "patriotic tendancies"? Because he says what YOU want to hear and then continues undermining our national sovereignty?

Again he shows more patriotic tendencies than any other. If you can show me someone else that does, i will be happy to concede on this point.

Which citizens, other than Macedonian citizens, do you think Ivanov obligated to represent?

Well in my opinion, he is fulfilling his obligations. Which is why i blame the citizens more than the Government in particulor Ivanov. Its they (citizens) that clearly want EU entry but not if it was to change our name.

Its they that aren't calling for end of negotiations. Its exactly what Ivanov is doing and has done. That is trying to get Macedonia in as a EU member. I will try to elaborate later on, i am now tied up.

[Bratot]

Bill77,

So what if Ivanov made a speech in Parliament?? What does the "size of the audience" matter? He still supports the negotiations. Can you see the difference between words and actions??

If you know Ivanov's position, how can you claim he has "patriotic tendancies"? Because he says what YOU want to hear and then continues undermining our national sovereignty?

Which citizens, other than Macedonian citizens, do you think Ivanov obligated to represent?

It's better nowadays to be sceptical, when we discuss about Macedonian politicians, but in spite of that we are all in a hope to be proved wrong.

I don't think this hope of Bill is making him "supporter" of Ivanov, but we have to consider those statements as potential message with two aims:
1. To show political courtesy directed to the international community to keep Macedonia's pro-western image
2. to sent assurance to Macedonian people that despite the ongoing negotiations, the President will not succumb the pressure to change the name.

They are contradictory positions and equally posible to be true.

It's a matter of what we prefer to read, the first or the second line.

[George S.]

Germany & france should recognize macedonia under it's constitutional name.Greece should fuck off & stop interferring in macedonia's affairs.

[George S.]

why can't the president tell greece off to stop bullieng macedonia to capitulate & they should call off the talks.