Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[fyrOM]

American Revolution - read up on it. You might finally understand what natural law and national liberation is all about.

I know it reasonably well…its just because they won the physical battle…winning just the battle of the mind still would not have saved them from hanging.

I know you are going to say winning the battle of the mind is half the war or more won…and there’s the point without the physical win you hang as a traitor.

History is written by the victors. Had this happened you would have learned some other words about George and Co.

Which version of history is being said…the Albanians were freedom fighters and Ahmeti is in parliament in the ruling party and human rights natural law and liberation and self determination prevailed. I’m sure you agree with all of this natural rights...see quote above.

When you find some time for light entertaining reading do read my post and you may realise the point you have been missing all along…its not the question DO rights exist and lets see you prove it…the koj te sisa clause says its their application that matters.

[Vangelovski]

OM,

I'm glad you accept the existance of natural law. However, when have I ever suggested that struggle and hardship, (and as a last resort, violence), would not be necessary to exercise them? Have you noticed that I usually include the concept of "responsibility" when discussing natural rights? What does "responsibility" mean to you? What do you think some of the "responsibilities" relating to natural rights are?

[Makedonetz]

Whose words?

I thought this was written in Ill content but after reading the responces i take back the post about it being strong words if its coming from a politician blowing smoke up his blow hole.

[fyrOM]

I don’t like the constant reference to independence in 1991 and UN recognition in 1993. It makes us look like we came down in the last shower.

Mention should be made that the name Rep. of Macedonia was registered after WW2 albeit with Socialist in front of it and as part of the Yugoslav federation to highlight Greece’s lack of objection to the name goes a long way back and only began in 1988.

Also mention should be made that the Macedonians first declared an independent Rep. of Macedonia in 1903 and their struggle for independence goes well before that let alone their sense of identity has always been Macedonia despite what other external occupiers chose to label them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

"It is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia," Ivanov warned.

So what is acceptable to your government, because clearly, you are prepared to sell the Macedonians out to some degree if you are still negotiating with Greece. The latter is not the be all and end all, Macedonia needs to pull out of these negotiations ASAP and let the chips fall where they may.

End the shame. NOW.

[Bill77]

Here is the whole Annual Address.



ANNUAL ADDRESS BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, H.E. DR. GJORGE IVANOV



Skopje, 14 December 2010

The end of the year always gives us an opportunity to reconsider the accomplishments, to rejoice the successes, but also to draw lessons from the lessons learned, to see what has been achieved in the current year, what we are still working on and what remains to be done in the year to come.

According to the constitutional obligation, today, for the second time, I am addressing you in order to give you a summary on the fulfillment of my constitutional responsibilities. In addition to the summary, I will also refer to my views and I will assess the situation and the developments in the country in general. Moreover, I would like to present, to this highest legislative dome, my expectations for the year 2011.

As President of the Republic of Macedonia in this past year, all my activities were focused within my constitutional competences and strategic determinations of the state. My policy stems from them.

However, at the very beginning of my address, I must briefly refer to all that has been accomplished.

Namely, everything that was happening at the international scene in 2010, as always in the past, could not be reduced to only one possible truth. All tremors, disturbances that were present in 2010, both in the sphere of politics and in the field of finance, environment, demography suggest that mankind is entering into a general, large-scale, global social and moral crisis.

Such crisis dynamics results in creating, designing of a multi-polar world with new centers of economic and political power. New rivalries and new alliances are already established both at regional and international level. Every one of us, deep down in himself, feels that such changes are happening.

In such context, in the sphere of foreign policy, throughout the year, I had 36 international appearances and activities and I paid 25 visits to foreign countries. As Head of State, I have represented our country at all most important multilateral events. I hosted five official and working visits of several colleagues. I had more than a hundred meetings with Heads of States and chiefs of international organizations.

All these meetings and visits had one and the same purpose, to represent our country in a decent manner and to advocate its strategic interests. The leading objective of my international activity primarily was to embody Macedonia as a peace-loving country contributing to the regional stability. Macedonia as a multiethnic society may serve as an example. Macedonia as a state exporter of stability. Macedonia as an actor having responsibility in multilateral organizations as part of the contribution to the international relations. Macedonia as an open market economy striving towards its further development. Macedonia as a European culture, having the willingness and capacity to be part of the European family of nations. Macedonia as a democracy, promoting human and minority rights. Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.

Through my activities, I assume, I have managed to provide my contribution to the good neighborly relations and regional cooperation, and to create new and strengthen the existing partnerships and friendships. To create ambience in which the administration and the business community will be able to work better and also open new areas for communication and cooperation for our country. Therefore, I have always insisted to be accompanied, on the visits and the meetings I have had, by representatives of the Government of the Republic of Macedonia and representatives from the business community.

The active participation on the international arena, whether it is the United Nations, OSCE, Europe, US or Asia, is the best indicator of the international capacity of the Republic of Macedonia. With this we have best proven that we are an active participant in the regional and global processes, thus making the Macedonian voice heard and concerning these issues.

Republic of Macedonia’s Presidency with the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, as Macedonian Chairmanship, was an exceptional opportunity for promotion and affirmation of the country. The Macedonian Chairmanship was our contribution to the efforts for better functioning of the oldest European institution. Macedonia worked diligently, was committed and cared for our common European home, at a time when key reforms in the organization were launched. In this endeavor we were guided by three priorities - strengthening human rights protection, promoting integration of national minorities in the European societies and involvement of youth in political processes and democratic reforms in their societies. Having such an agenda, we contributed to the achievement of the goals of the oldest European international organization.

The Macedonian Chairmanship coincided with the 60th anniversary of the adoption of the European Convention on Human Rights. It was indeed a rare occasion that, on behalf of the Republic of Macedonia, along with the UN Secretary General, Mr. Ban Ki-moon, I was able to address the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe on the jubilee of this Convention. I was really proud that as President of the Republic of Macedonia, on behalf of all Council of Europe member states, I could convey the noble messages for human rights promotion in Europe in Macedonian language. This happened exactly in the same place where, only fifteen years ago, it was denied by some politicians.

In terms of regional cooperation, we have made progress in the good neighborly relations with all our neighbors, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, Bulgaria, but also with Greece.

With Serbia we are determined to continue the development of the regional cooperation. Although there is certain difference in our positions concerning Kosovo, it should not be an obstacle to the comprehensive and traditionally good bilateral cooperation.

The cooperation with Kosovo is improving, and therefore, we continue with our dedicated efforts to assist its integration into the regional initiatives, but also to improve our economic and general exchange and cooperation.

The relations with Albania are at a high level of development, although all possibilities for cooperation are not exhausted. I believe that the ethnic communities in both countries can be used as a bridge in promoting this cooperation, but also for mutual assistance.

With Bulgaria, we are also determined to continue the development of the close political communication, but it is still below the desired level in terms of economic ties. The greatest challenge and the biggest requirement for improvement of the Macedonian-Bulgarian cooperation is the construction of Corridor 8 and the railway connection between Skopje and Sofia.

With Greece, the political dialogue is becoming more prevalent and more intense. It gains the desired dynamics, something that was lacking in the past and something that can further improve the generally good economic relations.

We can assess as very positive our relations and comprehensive cooperation with the countries from the wider neighborhood and from the region in general, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Turkey, Romania, Hungary.

Compared with the situation of only a decade ago, the region today lives in the token of mutual reconciliation, stability and prosperity. Regional cooperation has reached the appropriate level. Today, with my colleagues from the closest and the wider neighborhood, during our frequent meetings, we discuss concrete and practical projects, investments and actions beneficial for the citizens: economy, road and rail infrastructure, transport and energy corridors, organized crime suppression, environmental protection.

These days, for a year now, our citizens, after a longer period, again have the opportunity to travel freely throughout the European Union countries. One major obstacle in linking our country with the world, access to the world achievements and for promotion of our values abroad, is gone. The proper visa liberalization enforcement will prove that Macedonian citizens are deservedly part of the European free space.

We are aware that our path to the European Union is firmly traced. However, we should continue to move on that path as equal citizens of Europe. It is true that the integration into the European Union offers economic development and progress, higher living standard, education, employment and opportunity for all. But we need to know that the European Union also requires investments and sacrifices, contributions and benefits for the common and general goods. Thus, the possibility should not be sought in the social funds, but in the benefits of Europe that ensure social and individual development and progress.

Today more than ever, our region needs what I call European peace (Pax Europeana), which sees Europe as an open space with freedom of movement of people, ideas, capital and products. Open space in which each economy can grow and spread. Open space, where people with open minds build tolerance and respect for diversity.

Therefore, in moments of crisis, we in the region need to have more and not less Europe. The global economic crisis should not be an alibi to stop on the way of progress, to abandon the path laid down by the founders of Europe. On the contrary, exactly in times of economic crisis we all need to embrace the fundamental principles that led the European unification which were actually a motive to overcome crisis situations and relations between European countries.

There is no sustainable alternative for the region and for Macedonia except the European integrations. There is no greater driving force for our societies than the EU integration process. Europe's ability to influence the neighborhood, without pressure, without force, to attract and to adapt the neighboring states in its constellation of democratic and prosperous countries, is one of the most important missions of Europe.

Therefore, in our strategic determinations, we see NATO and the European Union as dominant integration, development and security projects, having major impact on the economic, social and value realities of the continent, in the middle of which are we. I always warn not to forget the genuine idea of the European unification. The circumstances and the economic crisis in current member states are not favorable when admission of new countries is concerned. We do understand this. But that does not mean that we accept the thesis of enlargement fatigue. Indeed, crises have always been periods of major challenges and great opportunities, times when new leaders have emerged with new solutions and new visions.

However, the greatest obstacle for us in the Euro-Atlantic integrations is the problem created by our southern neighbor concerning our name. In this context, the Republic of Macedonia has always adhered, with dignity and responsibility, to the 1993 UN resolutions, when Macedonia was admitted as member, as well as to the provisions of the Macedonian-Greek Interim Accord of September 13, 1995. Macedonia so far has demonstrated its sincerity and commitment many times, with the amendment of the Constitution and the national flag, with its admission to the United Nations under the provisional mode of addressing, but in other occasions as well. Nevertheless, we are committed to continue the dialogue between Greece and Macedonia, as an expression of our responsibility, as a shared obligation and as the sole way to overcome the bilateral dispute between Greece and Macedonia.

We stand ready to bridge the differences in a European manner. However, this also means focusing on the fundamental right of the state. We are citizens of a European country and we require Greece, being a member of the European Union, to apply European approach towards us. Therefore, once again I urge that it is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, being the guardian of our national sovereignty and our national dignity. Therefore, I would like to underline that as long as I am President of the Republic of Macedonia I will not allow this to happen.

We are fatefully experiencing the old wisdom - nomen est omen - the essence is in the name. Our name reflects an essential part of the Macedonian identity. Our ancestors were faced with much greater pressure, but they have never succumbed, with great difficulty they have left us what we need to preserve today for the future generations.

Macedonian state officials, as never before, have a clear position: intensification of the Macedonian-Greek dialogue and search for a mutually acceptable compromise solution. But the solution must be within the Resolution 817 of the United Nations of 1993.

We want a solution, but only within the Greek-Macedonian Interim Accord of September 1995. Lastly, the final decision will be made by the citizens.

As President of the Republic of Macedonia, I take into consideration all views of the political entities in the country, including those of the opposition, and based on those views, I create, within my competences, the state policy with regard to this issue. Responsibility of every relevant politician in the Republic of Macedonia is not to abuse the Greek-Macedonian bilateral dispute in the context of EU and NATO integration. We should not encourage disunity among citizens. It is true that the daily politics concerning this issue causes certain damage internally, but I would like to stress that the main reason this issue is still not resolved lies in some Greek politicians, not in the politicians from the Republic of Macedonia. It is time to abandon the stereotypes and prejudices from the past for the sake of our common future.

In order to be consistent in achieving our strategic commitment for Euro-Atlantic Macedonia, we need to be united, unified, to have single position and with concerted efforts to endure on the road ahead of us.

The upcoming year is a year of serious decisions. Decisions that require all segments of the Macedonian society to behave responsibly and with dignity, as the Macedonian citizens have always been when faced with key historical challenges. Macedonian citizens have shown this almost 20 years ago, when they made a decision for an independent, sovereign and autonomous Republic of Macedonia. They have proven this less than 10 years ago when they accepted to promote the century-long tradition of coexistence and tolerance with the Ohrid Agreement. All segments of the Macedonian society, of the Macedonian political scene, NGOs, media and all other social actors should be faithful to the political maturity of the Macedonian citizen, to its democratic capacity.

The essential identity issues we spend most of our time and energy have been imposed on Macedonia and raised at the level of high priority because they have been set as a condition for the better future of our country. Without such conditions to the Macedonian integration, by opening various historical and identity disputes, I am convinced, this debate in Macedonia would have been less painful and with far less publicity. Macedonian citizens are faced with an inappropriate and imposed choice - to choose between the past, present and future. That is the reason for opening debates, which in other states, certainly are perceived as anacronic and strange, at a time when many debates are led for the economy, unemployment, infrastructure, development, environment, energy, new technologies.

I have been working hard to reduce the unbalanced approach in presenting our truth concerning the imposed name dispute. What I can conclude, after many meetings and discussions I have had, is that there is more understanding for the Republic of Macedonia than we have ever thought. Understanding that comes primarily from our friends, partners and NATO allies that share with us the same values, interests and priorities. With whom we share obligations, tasks and responsibilities. This should be complemented with sharing not only obligations but also rights and privileges deriving from the membership into the alliance.

Positive experiences from the region have confirmed the old truth that the issues and the problems are solved only through a dialogue. That communication restores confidence between the parties and builds bridges of cooperation. That the one who communicates becomes integrated. Lasting and sustainable solutions are built only with sincere commitment and awareness of the shared past, shared present and common future. To this end, the meetings between the Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia and the Prime Minister of the Hellenic Republic have been intensified.

Regardless of the temptations and difficulties that we are being faced with on the way of our accession to the Union and NATO, I may state that our country does its utmost to keep up the pace of our internal democratic, economic, social and development reforms. Even more – we do our best to accelerate and improve them.

This is reflected in the positive reports and the recommendations for launching negotiation talks we receive from Brussels. The positive rankings from relevant international institution point out the effectiveness of the measures and activities, which in times of global economic crisis, have been undertaken by the Government of the Republic of Macedonia.

As far as defence is concerned, I am particularly proud of the Army of the Republic of Macedonia, which in the last two decades of its existence proved to be a worthy successor of the insurgents and fighters of the two Ilindens. As one of the pillars of Macedonia's integrity and independence, but also as proud guardian of the tradition of the Macedonian coexistence, the Army continues to be the tissue binding all communities living in the Republic of Macedonia, regardless of their ethnicity and religious affiliation.

Moreover, the implemented reforms make the Army one of the main engines of the Macedonian Euro-Atlantic integration. The New Defence Strategy of the Republic of Macedonia has been adopted, which is fully complementary with NATO. Also, the new structure of the forces of the Army of the Republic of Macedonia has been approved. The Defence Plan of the Republic of Macedonia has been upgraded according to the new security risks, which should allow appropriate functioning within the defence system. In order to maintain the pace of the launched reforms and to follow the processes in the sphere of defence and to achieve the partnership goals and NATO objectives, the financial means allocated for the defence should not be reduced.

Although we are temporarily prevented from becoming members of the alliance, the Republic of Macedonia remains committed to the efforts to join NATO. Also, within our capabilities, we will continue to build the defence and participate in international missions. The success of the Macedonian peace-keepers in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon and Bosnia and Herzegovina is the best recognition for Macedonia's commitment. Evidence for this is the fact that the Macedonian contribution today is one of the biggest per capita contributions, meaning that only in Afghanistan, Macedonia contributes more than all countries in the region and more than many NATO member states.

Except for the name issue, the European and Euro-Atlantic integration, great energy has been invested in the economic and energy issues. The economic future without energy security cannot be imagined. Therefore, as a concrete success of the economic and diplomatic activity of the Republic of Macedonia, I can mention the settlement of the clearing debt and the launched talks on joining the international energy corridor “South Stream” and building a branch across the country. Macedonia, finally, should be on the international map of energy transport corridors. This will open us an opportunity to obtain cheap energy sources for our enterprises and households, and reduced price of our production. This is a specific investment in the energy and general economic stability and security of the country.

The role of the state is to promote bilateral relations, tracing the way for deepening the economic cooperation among the countries. Turned towards one another, the state and the business develop partnership relations in order to maintain economic stability. Therefore, everywhere and always I invite entrepreneurs from other countries to make use of Macedonia’s advantages. To this end, during the official and working visits, as guest and as host, I am always accompanied by representatives of the Macedonian economy and I always try to open the doors for cooperation.

Having mentioned this, I would like to announce that in partnership with the Macedonian business community, under my auspices, we have founded the School for Young Leaders, which has already produced the first very successful generation. We have also initiated the implementation of other projects referred to in my program. The People’s Office of the President of the Republic of Macedonia in Skopje was opened, where the citizens can freely express their problems, requests and considerations. Very soon we will open such offices in Tetovo and Bitola. The dialogues with the religious leaders are ongoing, and also underway is the open call for selection of the youngest scientist.

Starting from next year, with the full abolishment of the customs taxes, Macedonia becomes part of the Common European market. I expect this measure to be important for the future of Macedonia, for the competitiveness of our companies, for the living standard of the Macedonian citizens.

The facing of the Macedonian economy with the European economy will certainly reveal some weaknesses attributive to a country with a small, and until now, closed market. Critiques that the opening of the Macedonian economy is going too fast are expected. We could hear some of these critiques even before, in certain branches of the economy. I am deeply convinced that open markets and competitiveness remove the inefficiencies and ensure fair market competition, allowing us to use our advantages. I expect Macedonia to come out as richer, more developed and more progressive.

Another measure anticipating us in 2011, which I expect to contribute to the releasing of the hidden economic potential of our country, is the greater role of the municipalities. In many social areas, in education, health, culture, there is room for further strengthening of the role of the local forms of organization.

Since its independence, the Macedonian political arena has never been fully compact, an attribute which, unfortunately, did not elapse 2010.

I expect one part of the public, once again, to use the old qualifiers that in performing my public duty, supposedly, I do not follow my own belief, or that I am not voiced enough when serious social issues are discussed. I do support and I will participate in every needed and useful political debate in which arguments are being used, but only if its aim is not to disturb the country’s position with daily-political accusations.

We witnessed various discussions regarding my competences in terms of the intelligence system. Therefore, I would like to remind you that Gjorge Ivanov’s competences are not concerned, but the competences of the President of the Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, I would like to underline that, as a President of the Republic of Macedonia, I shall protect the competences of the institution. However, we are aware of the need for a more functional system. We are looking for a model that would not harm democracy and human rights.

Mistaken are all those who think that someone’s success or failure in implementing the constitutional competences is measured by the number of quarrels they have had in the Parliament, with the Government or in public. Also mistaken are those who want to create conflicts among the ruling authorities. I will tell them that they should not hope that I will allow irresponsible behavior that might harm the cohesion we’ve created in terms of the strategic goals of the Republic of Macedonia, particularly the Euro Atlantic integrations and the preservation of the Macedonian national identity.

Various opinions, positions and disagreements have existed and will continue to exist; between the opposition and the Government, as well as among the state officials and bodies. Actually, this is the purpose of democracy. However, when the highest national questions are at stake, I always insist these disagreements to be bridged over with constructive dialogue. Just as until now, in the future I will do everything I can to overcome all disagreements through constructive dialogue.

In the year that goes by, many serious issues on areas I am well acquainted with and highly appreciative of were opened, which include the issues regarding the lustration, the nongovernmental sector, or the civic organizations and civic initiatives and the role of media in democratic societies.

Personally, I am disappointed with the implementation of the Law on lustration. Anticipating the court decision, I shall not point out who made a mistake and how, but I want to tell you that the cleansing process must continue within the institutions. It is an exam for us as a state, and I expect that this exam is successfully passed. Anyone performing a public service is subjected to public responsibility. Anyone performing a public duty must be subjected to public control.

As if the Macedonian society is still adapting itself to political pluralism, to political fight for power. During the past years we often turned to the nongovernmental sector in search for objective, unbiased and expertise evaluations and advice. This confidence is vulnerable to misuse.

I was deeply stricken by the information of possible system abuses of this sector. The confidence built for ages could be lost in a single moment. This is why, for organizations whose primary, and maybe only resource is the citizens’ confidence, this is a great threat. We have to open a serious and argument-based discussion regarding the positioning of the civic sector in the future, that is, if we wish to continue using this important segment of civic organizing.

What was said for the confidence crisis in the nongovernmental sector also refers to the Macedonian media, where this problem is even more evident, and additionally amplified by the economic challenges facing the media. I will always defend the freedom of expression, as well as the functioning of the rule of law and the institutions. I will always support open and lively debate.

The current state of the media allows and even encourages loud expression of opposite opinions. I wouldn’t discuss the taste and the style, however, I believe that the essence of the debate is already accomplished, which is why I completely disagree with the views that there is no debate.

Furthermore, it is of prime importance for the citizens to know, clearly and transparently, when they are being addressed by politicians fighting for their confidence, and when this is done by representatives of associations, media, experts, who, not being burdened by the fight for power, and yet speak as power defending the public interest. Dimming of the border line between the government and non-government sector, between politics and media, creates a condition in which the citizens’ confidence, as well as the essence of democracy, is being lost.

Our force is in our best exporting product, our model of multiethnic co-existence, model of inclusive democracy. The Macedonian model implies integration without assimilation. Integration with respect for the existing cultural, ethnic, linguistic, religious and other diversities. Some admire it, others are afraid of it. We are proud of it. We are the brightest example that in the Balkans, this crossroad of civilizations, there can be coexistence and tolerance. Our Constitution, the Framework Agreement, and the deep, centuries-old traditions of coexistence, tolerance, understanding and mutual assistance are the guarantees of this model.

From time to time, some problems arise, but the foundations of this model are firm.

Next year we will celebrate the 10-h anniversary of the signing of the Ohrid Framework Agreement. A considerable progress is apparent in terms of the adopting and implementation of the legal solutions. With the Constitutional amendments, changes and annexes in the existing legislative and the adoption of new laws arising from the same, the legal framework has been completed, and conditions for further development have been created.

The rounding out of the process of implementation of the Ohrid Framework Agreement continues to be one of the main priorities of the Republic of Macedonia. The undertaken activities are directed towards enhancing the: decentralization process; usage of the language of the minority communities, equitable representation of members of all ethnic communities and the educational system. That is how we build confidence.

Today, we need this confidence more than ever. Ahead are challenges related to our fatherland’s Euro Atlantic integrations. In order to successfully finish this road, in order to successfully implement the common goal, we need less divisions and more unity. Less quarrels and more respect. Much more self-confidence and self-respect.

At the end, I would like to note the following – our goal is clear and widely accepted by the citizens – inclusive, democratic, European and Euro Atlantic Republic of Macedonia. A country that will cherish the gains of the centuries-old struggle for independence and autonomy. Macedonia that fulfills the legitimate needs, requests and interests of all Macedonian citizens.

Although on our road we face many challenges, I believe this goal is attainable. I think we already know the formula for success – more unity and less division. Unity, as a blessed condition of mutual understanding and respect is the secret of common success. It is enough to go back to the historic decisions whose jubilees we shall celebrate next year. We are obliged to do this by our forefathers, by present and future generations.

Luck follows the brave. We are all aware that we build our success and the success of our fatherland. What remains is, with a clear conscience and renewed feeling of unity, to decisively step forth in the year that is before us. I will conclude with a thought which I have emphasized even before:

We know who we are, we know what we are, and we know where we are headed to!

Long live the Republic of Macedonia!

Thank you.

http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/Macedonia/647985/index.html

[Risto the Great]

Some brief moments of clarity there.

[Bill77]

So what is acceptable to your government, because clearly, you are prepared to sell the Macedonians out to some degree if you are still negotiating with Greece.

Its understandable to get frustrated and ask this question.
Why does he not walk away from these negotiation?
well as much as i also wan't this charade to end, i will again (for the sake or trying to have a ballanced view), "imo" bring up why this government is persisting.
I have previously given my opinion as to why the current government has yet to walk away.

Really......if he is pro changing our name "sell out" as some would suggest, would his comments about greece and the 100 + years of problems, not work against his aspirations?

Or is he just walking on egg shells and being diplomatic with the west but has no intentions what so ever to change our name, where as at the same time, keep the traitors within our country (Albanians, SDSM etc) from causing our country more grief.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...6&postcount=24

What is obvious is Gruevski is playing his Diplomatic cards corectly so far. He is careful not to get on the wrong side of the worlds view regarding the negotiations and make our Nation look like the evil or imature side. That childish Behaviour is left up to Greece, who keep on shooting them selves in the foot and get rebuked for there actions.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...4&postcount=30

Now please read the following statement by Ivanov during his annual address in parliament. And am i correct in thinking this way?

Ivanov
All these meetings and visits had one and the same purpose, to represent our country in a decent manner and to advocate its strategic interests. The leading objective of my international activity primarily was to embody Macedonia as a peace-loving country contributing to the regional stability.

More importantly, is it good policy?
Normaly when someone (A dangerous mad man) got his hands on a gun and could eliminate you at any time, It can't be good.
But is Ivanov a mad man or a traitor, sell out as some like to paint him to be?
Just read a selection of comments in this annual address in parliament which obviously the world media would have heard about it, and most importantly, the ethnic albanian politicians would have been sitting right under his nose at the time.

Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.

I was really proud that as President of the Republic of Macedonia, on behalf of all Council of Europe member states, I could convey the noble messages for human rights promotion in Europe in Macedonian language.

We stand ready to bridge the differences in a European manner. However, this also means focusing on the fundamental right of the state. We are citizens of a European country and we require Greece, being a member of the European Union, to apply European approach towards us. Therefore, once again I urge that it is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, being the guardian of our national sovereignty and our national dignity. Therefore, I would like to underline that as long as I am President of the Republic of Macedonia I will not allow this to happen.

We are fatefully experiencing the old wisdom - nomen est omen - the essence is in the name. Our name reflects an essential part of the Macedonian identity. Our ancestors were faced with much greater pressure, but they have never succumbed, with great difficulty they have left us what we need to preserve today for the future generations.

Responsibility of every relevant politician in the Republic of Macedonia is not to abuse the Greek-Macedonian bilateral dispute in the context of EU and NATO integration. We should not encourage disunity among citizens. It is true that the daily politics concerning this issue causes certain damage internally, but I would like to stress that the main reason this issue is still not resolved lies in some Greek politicians, not in the politicians from the Republic of Macedonia. It is time to abandon the stereotypes and prejudices from the past for the sake of our common future........ we need to be united, unified, to have single position and with concerted efforts to endure on the road ahead of us.

As far as defence is concerned, I am particularly proud of the Army of the Republic of Macedonia, which in the last two decades of its existence proved to be a worthy successor of the insurgents and fighters of the two Ilindens

Long live the Republic of Macedonia!

[Bratot]

Bratot, if it can be done upon our demand and this is all it takes, how come it hasn't been demanded from our government yet?

This is like asking me why our government have signed such agreement in a first place.

I can only assume what the legal action of the Government is after for since the veto for NATO in Bucurest 2008 but none of us is able to confirm for sure.

What do you see as the consequences should Macedonia pull out of the IA?

The consequences between unilateral withdrawal from the Interim Agreement differ from having a legal nullity of the IA.

The consequences of the legal nullity is returning to the previous state (as before the Interim agreement), plus the res iudicata, meaning no one in the future will be allowed to raise the issue of name again.

Whilst the legal consequences of a withdrawal from the Interim are such that the previous consequences (lost flag, minorities rights, temporary name) remain in force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_judicata

[Vangelovski]

This is like asking me why our government have signed such agreement in a first place.

I can only assume what the legal action of the Government is after for since the veto for NATO in Bucurest 2008 but none of us is able to confirm for sure.




The consequences between unilateral withdrawal from the Interim Agreement differ from having a legal nullity of the IA.

The consequences of the legal nullity is returning to the previous state (as before the Interim agreement), plus the res iudicata, meaning no one in the future will be allowed to raise the issue of name again.

Whilst the legal consequences of a withdrawal from the Interim are such that the previous consequences (lost flag, minorities rights, temporary name) remain in force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_judicata

Again, get off the rakija.

[Bratot]

Where??? In what universe?

Bratot, get off the rakija. Now you're just being plain STUPID.

Vangelovski,

I will repeat what I've said earlier to you:


I would appreciate if you prove that what I wrote is wrong.

Your opinion about me have nothing to do with the logical merits of my arguments or assertions.

Until you prove your allegations against me as correct you are not able to question my credibility, is that clear enough?


I think that's fair enough, and you should really seek third party for a advise on this matter if you don't trust me, but take under consideration that there are such judgments of the European Court of Human Rights, in which the right to name and identity are contained in Article 8 of ECHR.

I mentioned once that I will publish whole article about these legal solutions, but I need the permission of one more (from 3 persons) expert on IL to publish their strategy.

Again, get off the rakija.

Do I need to ask the Admins to discipline you for these irrelevant commentaries?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

You are yet to provide an explanation of how Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which relates to personal privacy, has anything to do with 'rights to an identity'.

Prove you wrong? You're not even making any sense. You've googled a random bunch of legal terms, provided irrelevant and contradictory "legal strategies" and you're asking for someone to 'prove you wrong'??

To declare something 'null and void' means to consider that it never existed. It means having no legal effect. The law treats it as if it had never existed or happened. How on earth could Macedonia be compelled to continue to enforce the provisions of an Accord which is considered as never having existed???

Where on earth are you finding the crap that you put up here on this forum??? You are either a comlete MORON or you are purposely spreading confusion.

[Daniel the Great]

Typical article, pointing out a Macedonia name dispute but no mentioning of the Human rights that are being denied and how Greece will stop at nothing in the continuous pursuit to cause havoc in Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You are yet to provide an explanation of how Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which relates to personal privacy, has anything to do with 'rights to an identity'.
Prove you wrong? You're not even making any sense. You've googled a random bunch of legal terms, provided irrelevant and contradictory "legal strategies" and you're asking for someone to 'prove you wrong'??

Do declare something 'null and void' means to consider that it never existed. It means having no legal effect. The law treats it as if it had never existed or happened. How on earth could Macedonia be compelled to continue to enforce the provisions of an Accord which is considered as never having existed???

Where on earth are you finding the crap that you put up here on this forum??? You are either a comlete MORON or you are purposely spreading confusion.

A person’s name is an integral part of one’s identity. Both the Human Rights Committee and the European Court have ruled that a person’s name falls under the protection afforded by the right to respect for private life. In Coeriel and Aurik v. The Netherlands (Communication No. 453/1991, Views of 31 October 1994), where national authorities refused the applicants permission to change their surnames to Hindu surnames, the Human Rights Committee established that a person’s name, including the power to change it, falls within the realm of privacy:

The Committee is of the view that a person’s surname constitutes an important component of one’s identity and that the protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with one’s privacy includes the protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with the right to choose and change one’s own name. For instance, if a State were to compel all foreigners to change their surnames, this would constitute interference in contravention of article 17.

Although the European Convention does not specifically refer to name, the European Court has reviewed several cases in which individuals have claimed that governmentally imposed restrictions on name changes have violated the right to private life under Article 8.

http://www.humanrights.is/the-human-rights-rpoject/humanrightscasesandmaterials/comparativeanalysis/therighttorespect/identity/

This is just example as I advised you to check the existing judgments of the European Court of Human Rights, in which the right to name and identity are contained in Article 8 of ECHR.

As for your ignorance on these matters I don't feel obligated to comment, because I don't want to violate your FREEDOM to be ignorant.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Those judgements refer to INDIVIDUALS and their PERSONAL names. Not their NATIONAL/ETHNIC identity or STATE names.

As for your "Res Judicata" (delivery of a final judgement without recourse to appeal) even an amateur, such as myself, can see the flaws in that. Firstly, why would we need a "final judgement" in relation to the Interim Accord? Accepting the jurisdiction of a court to decide on that matter basically means that you accept that Greece has legitimate "grievances" that need arbitration in order to be resolved. Secondly, why is it that you accept the jurisdiction of a court that is unaccountable to the sovereign Macedonian people?