Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights includes the right to a name or identity as well.

Where??? In what universe?

[TrueMacedonian]

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf

Is it possible to go over each point without taking the topic off-topic?

[indigen]

Macedonians are being brainwashed to avoid saying MACEDONIA by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance!

Do you agree or disagree?

02-13-2010, 02:41 AM #98
UMDiaspora.org

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 375

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UMD has never defended the term 'FYROM.' UMD does not support the name "the
former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and definitely does not support acronyms.
This is ridiculous. The name of Macedonia is Republic of Macedonia.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...8&postcount=98

Advocating entry into EU and NATO under the terms of the "Interim Accord" is
advocating for FYROM and ENDORSEMENT of the TREASONOUS "IA" itself! If you or
anyone else can not comprehend that, then you have an IQ of an OVCA (Sheep) and
are beyond redemption, IMHO! :-)

FYI: Macedonia's rightful name is MACEDONIA and the addition of the
constitutional reference "Republic" is a COMPROMISE OFFER that IS
deceptively presented as being the "real and only" name of the country.

Professor Kramer on Macedonia and Macedonians:

"....Професорката наведува дека не е политичар, туку лингвист, но сепак, не може да
ја сфати суштината на спорот околу името.

„Македонија е Македонија. Македонскиот јазик е македонски јазик. Македонскиот
народ е македонскиот народ. Не ми е јасно во што е прашањето. Зошто една
држава може да вели дека од ден-денес, оваа држава, овој народ, овој јазик треба
да најде друго име. Веќе има име и името е Македонија“, вели Крамер...."

It is only befitting of me to have my first post on this forum in the propaganda section.
So, let's get to it.

And you made an arsehole of yourself from the word go! Bravo "Profesore"!

The claims of this thread is that we are getting brainwashed into avoiding the usage of our name by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance.

That is an observable fact that many of us have seen and observed!

I do not agree with this claim at all.

You are either in denial or spreading lies for some interested party that feels a need to cover up this and other anti-Macedonian dirty deeds!

First belittling one's own country by calling it other then its own name is by itself an Ad Homminem attack.

So, in your view, would calling Macedonia by her rightful and historical name - Macedonia mean "an Ad Homminem attack"?

Second, the institutions of our government or those in power do not subscribe to anything other then our name as is.

Just for clarification, can you specify what that is and should be? Certainly Macedonia is not used, or very rarely used!

And last but not least we do not have a puppet Macedonian Diaspora but individuals who work for the interests of others.

As you just admitted, you made an Ad Homminem attack on myself and others like me on your very first post without even COMPREHENDING what you were commenting on! Thus you were not invited here to have any genuine conversation but to attack without any basis a certain ideological Macedonian strand - patriotic Macedonians.

Although the opposition, the leftist scum, in Macedonia would willingly sell out anything and everything held sacred by Macedonians, this is not the case with the Macedonians in Macedonia.

Who said Macedonians in Macedonia are selling anything out? But when you say "the opposition, the leftist scum" do you include ALL members and supporters of those parties? Secondly are you absolving and excluding the VASSAL ruling "rightist" elites from any responsibilities for anti-Macedonian sell out deeds?

[Vangelovski]

Ceasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.

Another question, are you able to provide credibile source who can vouch that our withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?

Bratot, get off the rakija. Now you're just being plain STUPID.

[TrueMacedonian]

Article 5

1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties

[Risto the Great]

Article 5

1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties

I think this is understood better if we replace FYROM with another word ... say CUNT. Others may choose to use any word that is offensive. I apologise for writing FYROM to my dear Macedonians.

The 1st clause says: The Parties agree to continue negotiations whilst Macedonia refers to itself as CUNT.

The 2nd clause says: 2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties .... as long as the party to the second part calls itself CUNT.

..... again, my apologies for using the "F" word.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia and Greece in row

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad-application/macedonia-and-greece-in-row/story-fn6s850w-1225971243107

MACEDONIA and Greece are embroiled in a dispute about the former's name.

Although Macedonia is willing to compromise with Greece in a dispute about its name it has said it would not accept any solution that affected Macedonian identity and language, President Gjorge Ivanov said on Tuesday.

Greece has a northern province called Macedonia and claims the use of the name by the country implies Skopje has a claim on the Greek territory.

"It is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia," Ivanov warned.

"As long as I am president of the republic of Macedonia, I will not allow this to happen," he added in his annual address to parliament.



Macedonian media have reported that Athens insists not only that the republic change its name but also objects to its language being called Macedonian and its inhabitants being identified as Macedonians.

Macedonia, independent since 1991, was recognized by the United Nations in 1993 under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

UN-led negotiations on the name row have been fruitless and Greece has used it to block Macedonia's entry into both the European Union and NATO.

Ivanov said Macedonia was ready to overcome its differences with Greece.

"We stand ready to bridge the differences in a European manner. We are citizens of a European country and we require Greece, being a member of the European Union, to use a European approach towards us," Ivanov said.

More than 120 nations, including Russia and the United States, have recognized the landlocked Balkan country under its constitutional name Republic of Macedonia.

I hope my response is published.

[Vangelovski]

More of Ivanov's skeletons. According to him its ok to negotiate the state name. And what's this garbage about the constitution being off limits? They have already changed it on request from both Greece and the Albanians.

I wonder what a "European approach" is? Does it have anything to do with pants round ankles and backsides?

[Makedonetz]

Very good writing powerful words!

[fyrOM]

Just because Vangelovski said he missed my long rants I took it as a green light for this one foray.




I find it strange to just talk of rights as though they are…Mans inalienable rights…we hold these truths to be self evident…great sentiments…neigh laws…but the devil is in there application and manipulation.

I watched our government do a few things and formulated a theory on what they were doing…the Great Plan. In time as they did more things it further cemented my belief in my theory. As more time went by further positive evidence…I thought finally a government with truthful heart gutsy balls and scumbag scheming mind…Macedonia might just get somewhere. Then recent events shook my belief in the truthful heart. Take that out of the equation and all you have left is gutsy balls and scumbag scheming mind…a couple of steps ahead of the devil Crvenkovski.

We all know where we want to go and what we want to achieve. It seems naive to just talk of broastroke ideals and wave the banner of inalienable rights as if proving that such a thing exists somehow means just wave that inalienable rights banner and ofcourse people have to get out of your way…the devil is in the detail and manipulation of terms…those rights are not automatic even if they should be nor even if it writes it somewhere…proving their existence does not guarantee their correct application.

If a bunch of people in the usa take up arms demanding greater rights they would be labelled terrorists and gunned down because nobody was shooting at them or killing them before they took up arms. The government would be called the defender of freedom justice and the rule of law. Where’s the peaceful petitioning instead of resorting to violence they would say.

Same no shooting or killing of the Albanians and they are labelled freedom fighters and the invading nato force is labelled the defender of justice and human rights. Same laws different application. That’s why some on this forum keep saying broad strokes and waving banners of rights is not enough. The manipulation is in the redefining of terms and the challenge is what to do to outmaneuver your opponent…read just about everyone…and not give him excuses to label you as he sees fit…your opponent knows the court of public opinion counts.

Simply waving the banner of inalienable rights and saying you can claim the moral high ground because of this appears naive to some. Badgering those who criticise…and say this is not enough or just plain naive…by offering umpteen bits of evidence that such a beast as inalienable rights exist to prove the case only appears more naive.

No one doubts we have rights. No one is trying to prove this away from you. Some of the inaction…or inappropriate action…in people in RoM and elsewhere is exactly as you say due to greed stupidity or fear or frozen minds but some of it is just out of what to do next when the government doesn’t appear to be supporting you and worse sometimes supporting those against you. I doubt just repeating to them they have rights is going to be enough. A lack of leadership exists and hence peoples frustrations and even protivpropagandas reaching out to the MTO…read diaspora.

[Vangelovski]

OM,

Sorry, when I find the time for some light amusement that lacks any coherent thought I'll read your post. I did catch one thing out of the corner of my eye though:

If a bunch of people in the usa take up arms demanding greater rights they would be labelled terrorists and gunned down because nobody was shooting at them or killing them before they took up arms. The government would be called the defender of freedom justice and the rule of law. Where’s the peaceful petitioning instead of resorting to violence they would say.

American Revolution - read up on it. You might finally understand what natural law and national liberation is all about.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ceasing the IA itself will not release us from the obligation given upper, until we anull the both resolutions, which can be done by the ICJ on our demand.

Bratot, if it can be done upon our demand and this is all it takes, how come it hasn't been demanded from our government yet?

What do you see as the consequences should Macedonia pull out of the IA?

[Risto the Great]

I wonder what a "European approach" is?

I never thought of it like that ..... hey baby, bend over and let me give it to you European style.

[Vangelovski]

Very good writing powerful words!

Whose words?

[indigen]

"Clavus clavo eicitur" familiar?

There is also a saying in Macedonian: "so lisicata na lisechki nacin"

Si pretpostavuvam deka "Golemiot Lisec" - Gligorov mora da ti bil (i se ushte da ti e) potik za tvojot ideoloshki pogled vo vrska so makedonskata megjunarodna vazalska politika! Dali gresham nekade?

Can you tell us with a straight face how on the one hand YOU can support the "IA" (as you do currently) and at the same time say you support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" (and even engage in promoting it)? What ethical principles are being upheld in such an OXYMORON stand? Would it be too far fetched to say that your support for the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" is analogous to that of the wolf in sheep's clothing lurking among the flock of sheep?

There was another saying in Macedonian for the likes of you: "Thick as a brick"

That describes you perfectly!

But wasn't you saying that declaring the Interim Agrement null and void will cease the negotiations? ( post 158)

NO! Show me where I said such a thing without your fuzzy interpretation?

Thus all this time you adhered to the view that we must declare the IA null and void in order to cease the negotiation which is plain OXYMORON solution, while parading to be a big supported to end the name negotiations.

You are like the THIEF shouting "Stop the THIEF"!
Your OXYMORON political position stands naked and exposed before the MTO readers and you are just clutching at straws but no doubt you will drown!

Ceasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.

That is NOT the issue here but you supporting the IA whilst claiming to also support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign", which to my knowledge is not based on ONLY declaring the IA null and void!

YOU TELL US HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT THE KEEPING OF THE IA WHILST SUPPORTING THE "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS CAMPAIGN"? Are the people and organisations who call, and called, for an end to the name negotiations inept and stupid or are you just being shifty?

Another question, are you able to provide credible source who can vouch that our withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?

Lets not divert from your OXYMORON position on the end the name negotiations campaign!

The following is from a media release of the WMK/SMK:
"Правото на самоидентификување и самоопределување е неотуѓиво универзално право на македонскиот народ и затоа СМК апелира на итен и безусловен прекин на разговорите за разликата за државното име Македонија и продолжување на членството во Обединетите Нации и во сите меѓународни организации под единственото име Македонија...."

The above has been my position from day one and WHERE DO YOU SEE ANY REFERENCE LIMITING the end demand to the nullification of the IA only?