Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[George S.]

MK what's your connection with the makedonska kafana website??I looked at it it's all great.
protive propaganda wellcome to the forum i have to agree with you on many points it's so true.

[Eddie_rebel]

Германија речи Македонија

DEUTSCHLAND - SAG MAZEDONIEN!

Писмото е адресирано до:

Амбасада на Германија во Македонија - Линк

Мисија на Германија во ООН - Линк

Влада на Германија - Линк

Доколку имате можност напишете ваш текст во кој најкултурно и аргументирано побарајте признавање на Република Македонија под уставно име, и пратете го на трите посочени адреси.

Доколку немате време и идеја што да напишете, слободно копирајте и пратете го текстот на германски (долу):



Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

Am 15. April 1993 hat die Bundesrepublik Deutschland die Republik Mazedonien als selbstständigen Staat anerkannt, sodass beide Länder diplomatische Beziehungen aufnahmen. Allerdings war die Anerkennung nicht unter dem verfassungsmäßigen Namen unseres Landes - Republik Mazedonien, sondern unter der vorübergehenden Referenz, mit der die Republik Mazedonien in die UNO aufgenommen wurde.

Wir Bürger der Republik Mazedonien, glauben, dass diese Entscheidung die vorübergehende Referenz als Bezeichnung für unser Land anzuwenden nicht den Prinzipien als auch den Rechten von Freiheit und Gerechtigkeit entsprechen.

Die Referenz, unter der die Republik Mazedonien in die UNO aufgenommen wurde, ist nur für die Verwendung innerhalb der UN, wie in der Resolution 817. angegeben.

Ein weiterer Grund ist, dass die vorläufige Referenz unter der Mazedonien in die UNO aufgenommen wurde, eine vorübergehende Referenz darstellt - aber keinen Namen!

Wir, die Bürgerinnen und Bürger der Republik Mazedonien mit Sinn für Gerechtigkeit und Fairness, bitten, dass die grundlegenden Menschenrechte und Prinzipien auch für uns gelten. Haben wir es nicht verdient, unseren Namen zu tragen, den wir gewählt haben und mit welchen wir uns seit Jahrhunderten selbst nennen und definieren?

Unsere Bitte an Sie ist dazu beizutragen, die Ungerechtigkeit und Diskriminierung zu beenden und unser Land unter seinem historischen und verfassungsmäßigen Namen anzuerkennen - Republik Mazedonien.

Wir möchten anmerken, dass über 130 Länder weltweit, darunter die USA, Kanada, Brasilien, Indien, China, Japan, Russland ... unsere Heimat unter ihrem verfassungsmäßigen Namen anerkannt haben!

Auch möchten wir nicht vergessen zu erwähnen, dass wir die öffentliche Meinung Deutschlands zur Kenntnis genommen haben, in der wir überwiegend mit unserem verfassungsrechtlichen Namen bezeichnet werden.

Der Name unserer Heimat ist Republik Mazedonien! Wir Bitten dies zu respektieren, so wie wir immer Ihren Namen respektiert haben!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen



Почитувани дами и господа,

Сојузна Република Германија на 15 април, 1993 година, ја призна Република Македонија со што и двете земји воспоставија дипломатски односи. Како и да е признавањето не беше под уставното име на нашата земја - Република Македонија, туку под привремената референцата со која Република Македонија беше примена во ООН.

Ние граѓаните на Република Македонија, сметаме дека одлуката вашата земја да ја користи привремената референца како име на нашата земја е направедна и неправилна.

Имено реферецата под која Република Македонија е примена во ООН, е за да се користи само во ООН, како што стои и во резолуцијата 817.

Втора причина е затоа што привремената референца под која Република Македонија е примена во ООН е привремена референца, а не име!

Ние граѓаните на Република Македонија водени од правичноста и праведноста, бараме и за нас да важат основните човекови права. Зарем ние не заслужуваме да бидеме ословувани со името кое сами сме си го избрале и со кое сме се нарекувале со векови наназад?

Бараме од вас практично да придонесете за прекинување на неправдите и дискриминацијата во светот, и да ја признаете нашата земја под нејзиното историско и уставно име - Република Македонија.

Ве потсетуваме дека над 130 земји во светот меѓу кои САД, Канада, Бразил, Индија, Кина, Јапонија, Русија... ја признаваат нашата земја под нејзиното уставно име!

Исто така сакаме да спомнеме дека во јавните медиуми и во целото германско општество веќе одамна се користи нашето уставно име.

Името на нашата земја е Република Македонија! Ве молиме почитувајте го тоа исто како што ние отсекогаш сме го почитувале вашето име.

Со срдечни поздрави

[Akzion]

TrueMacedonian, Daskalot, Onur
The Vlachs were already a nomad tribe moving throughout the Balkans and the Italian peninsula, thus their language was an amalgam of all local languages. They were traders, so they would easily assimilate.
It seems Boutaris has a full Vlach ancestry, both from father and mother side (though I may be slightly wrong in that). Still, since he was born in Thessaloniki in the early 40s and grew up in a bourgeois environment as a son and grandson of rich winemakers, his main home language would be probably Greek (he may not speak Vlach at all).

[Serdarot]

this is realy funny

so, the Mayor of Solun is a Vlach... wait, i tought nothing but "greeks" live in gaylada?

But, if the Mayor is Vlach... is it possible that also big part of the population are not "greek" by ethnicity?

Is there someone with IQ above 10 in that pathetic state, who can understand the diference between citizenship and ethnicity?
-------------

Onur, we can realy be happy that we dont have such pathetic figures in our history / heritage...

I never could, and never can understand, how can someone be proud on unhumans like German(os) Karavangeli(s)

It is their National Hero, lol!

[Akzion]

Serdarot,
Vlachs are fully assimilated nowadays, so there's no real difference (that's all I said). In Greek, the same word means nationality and ethnicity. I think I'm (slightly) above 10 and maybe I understand the difference. Vlachs are not a nationality here, but they used to be a distinct group one day, solid in language, tradition, origins and social trends.
Germanos Karavangelis could be considered a national hero, I guess, but not many people know him, or the importance of his role, or how controversial he was. Maybe, they have just heard of the name.
Look at this interesting (and often hilarious) list from a TV show similar to "The Greatest Britons". He's not there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Greeks

[Onur]

I never could, and never can understand, how can someone be proud on unhumans like German(os) Karavangeli(s)

It is their National Hero, lol!

He was a disciple of the devil. After creating terror in Aegean Macedonia, Istanbul patriarchy appointed him to Blacksea region and he created same thing again by importing bandits from Crete and Russia and British gave them weapons.

I`ve read the memoirs of Karavangelis once. At least some excerpts of it and he expresses his joy about killing the Turks and how they massacred and burned people alive with pleasure. I know he did same in Macedonia b4 and thats why he was appointed to Blacksea already, because of his "success" in creating terror. Whats worse, Greeks uses his memoirs to accuse us with the so-called genocide of Greek pontians now!!!

Is he a national hero in Greece? No surprise, He seemly fits to them.

Serdarot,
Vlachs are fully assimilated nowadays, so there's no real difference (that's all I said). In Greek, the same word means nationality and ethnicity. I think I'm (slightly) above 10 and maybe I understand the difference. Vlachs are not a nationality here, but they used to be a distinct group one day, solid in language, tradition, origins and social trends.

That wasn't the case before. Ottoman Empire gave full status of a distinct minority group to the Vlachs in late 19th century. They had their own churches, bibles and associations in their own Latin like language once but Greeks destroyed their culture when they annexed Aegean Macedonia after terrorizing them for years from 1890 to 1912.

[Serdarot]

Serdarot,
Vlachs are fully assimilated nowadays, so there's no real difference (that's all I said).

you are aware about the difference between "integrated" and "assimilated"?

why you need to assimilate people`? (your state)

In Greek, the same word means nationality and ethnicity.

Than you should borrow few more our words, it would not change a lot, anyway more than half of the modern greek language is based on Macedonian

Germanos Karavangelis could be considered a national hero, I guess, but not many people know him, or the importance of his role, or how controversial he was. Maybe, they have just heard of the name.

i think i am very good informed about his "work", and his "importance" in the genocide made over OUR, Macedonian Ancestors

also i am very informed about your other pathetic national "hero", Pavlos Melas

It is imposible not to know them, if you are Macedonian with roots in Aegean Macedonia, as i am

We also have couple of such "heroes", and i can asure you, the Macedonians are ashamed of them, and they can NEVER be our National Heroes (Ivan Vancho Mihailov is one of those bastards)

They are simply sadistic egocentric bloodthirsty un-humans...

dude, i guess you don´t understand Macedonian, so that´s why we write on language that we both understand more or less, a kind of "koine" of today, English...

When you gonna stop with the trolling "skopje propaganda" and start realising that you are not super-human Nation?

When you gonna pull your heads out of your asses, and stop being pathetic west-european (german) puppet state, cousing unnumbered problems in the region?

When you gonna face the facts that your state was created by the germans as their puppet state, and the neo-hellenic myth is made up in the Bavarian Castles and British pubs, less than 200 years ago?

[George S.]

your right serdarot a sizable amount of the population could be albanian,vlach etc everything except greek.Greece is one fake country.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Germanos Karavangelis could be considered a national hero, I guess, but not many people know him, or the importance of his role...........

A "hero".....let's see. He blessed Turkish cannons as they fired into Macedonian Christians and kept a photo of a severed head of a Macedonian revolutionary in his house.

What exactly do the children of today's Greece have to pride themselves in with this murderous animal who impersonated a Christian bishop?

[julie]

every good Gayreek christian blesses cannons to murder innocent Macedonian people.....he was an animal, and you can hero worship Akzion you pathetic slimeball on your own maggotted website.

[Akzion]

Onur,
You’re very ungrateful towards the man who “blessed the Turkish cannons”. Did he use wrong holy water, or something?
Can you provide these excerpts from his memoirs?

Serdarot,
I believe integration is the phase where some outcasts (e.g. immigrants, drug addicts, gypsies) are entering and acknowledged by society (so they ‘re different, yet part of society). Assimilation is full integration, where your differences, whatever they are, have zero importance.
Many Greeks are getting married with Albanian immigrants. This is an issue for a Greek, it doesn’t pass unnoticed (which means society still has objections and reservations about it). On the contrary, if you marry a Vlach or Pontic it means nothing.
Assimilation can be natural process and provides, I guess, some sort of unity in society. Based on what I read here, life is pretty different in republic of Macedonia. Political parties are ethnic parties, political questions and divisions are actually ethnic ones. The ultimate political process is not the elections, but the censuses.
I’m not aware of any Greek words coming from Macedonia. Any examples?
I admit I haven’t heard of Ivan Vancho Mihailov or what he did.
I don’t understand you other comments. Maybe you’re confusing me with another Greek.
I still stand and vote for Greece exiting Euro zone, NATO and European Union. That would solve all your problems. So, I’m somehow, a friend.
The Greek state was not formed as a puppet state of Germany (there was no Germany back then). Actually, our first decade was spent in civil wars between pro-French, pro-English and pro-Russian political wings.
What is the neo-hellenic myth?

George S.,
What is your definition of a “fake country”?

Soldier of Macedon,
Modern children of Greece, unfortunately, are not aware of Karavangelis and his work. They may have heard the name of Pavlos Melas, as someone, who has something to do with Macedonian Struggle. Other modern figures (e.g. Hannibal Lecter) are more familiar.
Actually, Karavangelis saw himself as a continuator of 1821 hierarchs.

Julie,
Where did you see me worshiping historical figures? These people (e.g. Hitler) should be respected and studied. Whenever they are demonized, presented as psychos, deranged, bloodthirsty animals, it’s because some want to avoid serious historical and political analysis.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Modern children of Greece, unfortunately, are not aware of Karavangelis and his work.

How about Greece's first president. What do they know about him? For example, are the children of today's Greece aware that their first president was an Albanian who could not speak Greek?

Actually, Karavangelis saw himself as a continuator of 1821 hierarchs.

Really? So he too was a murderer that sang songs about killing and raping people? A history that somebody like you can be proud of, correct?

Onur,
You’re very ungrateful towards the man who “blessed the Turkish cannons”. Did he use wrong holy water, or something?
Can you provide these excerpts from his memoirs?

You want to joke about what this animal priest of yours did to my people?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=7885&highlight=karavangelis%2C+cannons#post7885

[Makedonetz]

FM Milososki: EU can help in reaching Macedonian-Greek compromise

Berlin, 10 December 2010 (MIA) - We would like EU to pay more attention to the name issue, because Macedonia itself has no sufficient resources, capacities and convincing power to make Greece more pragmatic or more flexible in order Macedonia and Greece to reach a long-awaited compromise, Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki told Deutsche Welle.

He is in Berlin to attend a conference, organised by the Aspen Institute, with regional leaders on the EU perspectives of Southeastern Europe.

Milososki says that such conferences are useful for Macedonia, taking into consideration that high-ranking meetings with Greek officials on the name dispute create a climate that boost mutual trust. However, he adds, there's room for bigger support from EU partners.

"Anyway, I believe it is important to manage throughout 2011 to keep the focus of EU's next presidency holders - Hungary and Poland - and the focus of EU countries playing an important role in the process of enlarging with Western Balkan countries," Milososki states.

Austrian Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger, who opened the conference together with his German counterpart Guido Westerwelle, says that the conference on Western Balkans is expected to send several signals.

"The first one is that we will jointly preserve the European perspective for the region. The second signal is that help will be provided to every country. However, it's up to the countries to implement reforms making the European perspective a reality. This will be the course of the conference with leaders from the region on SEE's perspectives," says Spindelegger, who earlier met with Macedonian FM Milososki.

With respect to the name row between Macedonia and Greece, FM Spindelegger says that no proposal will be made, because "there are structures established to discuss it."

"The UN has appointed a mediator and I don't know how many name proposals have been put forward. There is no lack of proposals, only political will is lacking this issue to be finally removed from the agenda. This is what we demand from both parties, because finally without a solution, Macedonia's progress towards EU is hampered. All proposals are being discussed for so long and I think that a solution should be finally reached," the Austrian FM notes. ba/fd/17:00

How long will we poke the dead horse with a stick. The Gov't is trying their hardest (Sarcasm) to sway the EU in their favors but the EU are still gutless no good pigs. Its interesting if Gruevski main concern is getting the country into the EU how much will the people in Macedonia take before they say enough is enough?

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=79370651&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+

[julie]

Berlin, 10 December 2010 (MIA) -

"The UN has appointed a mediator and I don't know how many name proposals have been put forward. There is no lack of proposals, only political will is lacking this issue to be finally removed from the agenda. This is what we demand from both parties, because finally without a solution, Macedonia's progress towards EU is hampered. All proposals are being discussed for so long and I think that a solution should be finally reached," the Austrian FM notes. ba/fd/17:00



http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?m...REIGN+AFFAIRS+

get stuffed. For their to be a solution, there must be a problem.
When will Gruevski grow some balls and tell them our name is not negotiable??!!!

[Makedonetz]

Exactly did the Gov't sell not only their souls but the souls of the residents living in Macedonia and every macedonian in the world