Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Bratot]

srce those were all done on the same day....glad to see you're catching up on your reading

by the way have you read the preamble of the Krushevska Republika? Its been a while since i've read it, but if memory serves me right its sounded a bit "soros-ish" in that its was inclusive of various people. what do you think srce? was nikola karev a "ramkovist"?

Let me put it this way for you,

Christian Macedonians in Turkish Empire were those who were opressed, not the moslem ethnic groups.

The proclamation or manifest of Krushevo republic was intented to communicate a message for other ethnic groups in order to avoid clashes between the general population, read it carefully:

Елате, браќа муслимани, при нас да тргнеме против нашите и вашите душмани! Како Турци, Албанци и Муслимани знаеме дека си мислите оти царството е ваше и оти вие не сте робје штом на царското знаме нема крст, а има месечина. Оти не е така и оти грешите вие брзо ќе се сетите. Ние сами ќе се бориме и за нас и за вас и ако е потребно до еден ќе умреме под знамето на нашата и ваша слобода. Ако пак вие не имате како ваши браќа . . . можеме да ви спомнеме само едно нешто: да не се заортачите со душманите, да не дојдете со пушка против нас и да не правите зулуми

http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%83%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82

http://mn.mk/istorija/347-krusevskiot-manifest

To make a long story short, it's more like a WARNING than some Ramkovno-Sorosoidna proklamacija, which you tend to depict as one, it would be wise for you to avoid misinterpretation of Macedonian ideals.

[Frank]

I don't understand a Word this man said, boy the Greeks have done such a good number on everyone living in Helarse including the Agean Macedonains who were lost long time ago to Hellenism

[Risto the Great]

Quite an alternative mindset from this Vlach.

[George S.]

hntill they beat him up for speaking out,maybe castor oil & jail that is the order of the day.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

Here's a video of him speaking about Macedonia Facebook Video

[makedonin]

I understand his words, but they make no sense to me!

What is this Krushevo that is cultural center of Skopje thing?

I don't see anything positive and changed in this statement.

[indigen]

A Vlach from Krushevo, sounds great for the Greek Nationalists and Greek Church.

Tuesday, 23 November 2010

"Why is the double name formula not suited for Greece?" asks Janis Butaris, the new mayor of Solun in today's edition for Etnos.

What "double name formula" do you think he has in mind, Prolet?

[Prolet]

Indigen, He's not very informative on that part, he is not liked by the Greek Church or the Greek Nationalists.

I think he wants to bring more tourists from Stari Kraj,i cant see why else he would say such things. He seems better then the other Mayor of Solun, that guy was an arsehole.

[Bratot]

Boutaris is playing the "Good Cop" role.

Don't get fascinated by such obvious political contrast for a same purpose, to have us officially debate over his "solution" and devaluate our starting position from - no name change - into - double formula.

[Onur]

I think he wants to bring more tourists from Stari Kraj,i cant see why else he would say such things.

Yes Prolet, thats the case.

Check this out;

Greek mayor to build Turkish memorial in Thessaloniki

The mayor-elect of Thessaloniki, Greece’s second-largest city, on Friday announced plans to build a monument to the movement headed by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

Yiannis Boutaris, the city’s first Socialist-backed mayor in 24 years, said he intended to build the monument on a square associated with the Young Turks, the movement that created the Turkish Republic in the early 20th century.

“Freedom Square took its name from Kemal Atatürk; this is where the Young Turk revolution began,” Boutaris told daily Eleftherotypia.

Atatürk was born in Thessaloniki, which until 1912 was part of the Ottoman Empire. The city had a large Jewish and Turkish population at the time but vestiges of their presence have all but disappeared since.

“You can’t deny history, these people lived here,” Boutaris said, adding that he also intended to build a memorial to the city’s Jewish martyrs on the square. Most of Thessaloniki’s Jewish residents, some 50,000 people, were removed to concentration camps and perished when Greece was conquered by Nazi Germany in World War II.

“We would like Turks and Jews to come to the city in a pilgrimage to their family heritage, in the same way as we go to Constantinople,” said Boutaris, using the Greek name for Istanbul, the former capital of the Byzantine Empire.

A 68-year-old wine producer and ecologist, Boutaris will formally assume his duties Jan. 1 after his election this month. Greece and Turkey have been rivals for centuries, fighting several wars and nearly coming to blows in 1996. Relations have since improved but remain strained over territorial and airspace disputes in the Aegean Sea.

November 19, 2010

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...iki-2010-11-19

As far as i read from some other sources, he already said that the wants to improve tourism in Salonika and thats why he wanna build monuments for Ataturk and the Jews. But because of this, he violently gets attacked by the fascists and Salonika church tough. Salonika church authorities said that they will never allow him build anything in the name of Turks. I don't think he can either. Even if he builds, i give 3 days b4 it gets vandalized by the Greeks.

[Pelister]

Dusho moje pajche WTF? How do you compare Soros with Nikola Karev??

I wondered the same thing, Julie. Its strange what the wind blows in sometimes. Is this the case of just another attempt by another Metoist (Kyky) trying to tinker with history. Why do they feel the need to project some insane post-modernist values onto a historical Macedonian figure. Is their purpose to redefine in a historical sense what it means to be a Macedonian? I don't know. There seems to be a real drive in that lunatic section of the diaspora to misrepresent our heroes, who they were and what they stood for. Karev was an ethnic Macedonian, who invited other people of Macedonia to join in the fight against the Turks. Soros, on the other hand, is a foriegner in Macedonia whose whole philosophy is to devolve power, decentralise control and relinquish jurisdiction (which is exactly what the E.U intends and expect from us, to do).

[kykypajko]

This sounds a bit ramkovist to me....

The new bodies included elected civilians from the three church communities: the Exarchy, the Patriarchate, and the Roman community.

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/uprisings.19.20.html

including minorities in the gov't....whoa minority representation. where have i heard that before?

Keith Brown who's done more research into the manifest sees it this way:

This momentous act was another declaration of the revolutionary, democratic, and republican ideals of brotherhood and unity between peoples

http://books.google.com/books?id=48N...page&q&f=false

Here's an english excerpt of the manifest: http://books.google.com/books?id=48N...lities&f=false

interesting story at the bottom of page 224

http://books.google.com/books?id=48NyoQdOWH0C&lpg=PA224&ots=zTYVq08JsF&dq=keith%20brown%20krusevo%20constitution&pg=PA224#v=snippet&q=republic&f=false

if we read further from the manifest

Ние не само ве имаме како сфои браќа, туку и ве жаљаме како сфои браќа, бидејќи разбираме оти и вие сте робје како нас,

strange that VMRO would be calling non-Macedonians brothers...... hmmm does Soros have a time machine? huh maybe Tito lent it out to him

here's more from the manifest

.

..Ако и вие нe имате како ваши браќа и ни сакате доброто, ако есапите пак да живејте со нас, како шчо сте живејале досега и ако сте верни и достојни синој на мајка Македонија, можите да ни поможите само со едно нешчо - а тоа јет голема помшт. да не се заортачите со душманите, да не дојдите со пушка протиф нас и да не прајте зулуми по рисјанските села!

kako sto zivejale dosega i ako ste verni i dostojni cinoj na majka makedonija.....

Bratot can you translate that part for me. does the Manifest call non-macedonians verni i dostojni cinoj na majka makedonija?? Oh sh!t that's revisionist

And how to you crackpots explain how Krusevo has always and still has a large Vlach population? Should we bayonet the Vlachs because they're not Macedonian?

Now we can argue about history ad nauseam and spin crazy Soros/Mason/Metoist/Alien/Antichrist theories but how does that stop discrimination against Macedonians? How does that get our identity recognized?

How many posts does it take until Macedonia gets recognize????

[Vangelovski]

Kykypajko,

I wanted to respond, but I have no idea where you're going with any of your ramblings or what you point is. In fact, I don't think you quite understand the social and political context in which the Krusevo manifesto was FREELY written and the social and political context in which the Framework Agreement was FORCED onto us. Perhaps when you actually make a point backed up by some logical argumentation it will be worthwhile debating.

[Risto the Great]

kykypajko, are you a dickhead in real life? Or is it just online?
Explain how Soros has anything to do with our Ilinden revolutionaries. This is the second time I have sought clarification from you.

[indigen]

srce those were all done on the same day....glad to see you're catching up on your reading

by the way have you read the preamble of the Krushevska Republika? Its been a while since i've read it, but if memory serves me right its sounded a bit "soros-ish" in that its was inclusive of various people. what do you think srce? was nikola karev a "ramkovist"?

Starting from this (or kuku's first spam post) OFF-TOPIC posting, which has diverted this rather productive thread into some unrelated "discussion", I request the MTO Admin (or RTG) to clean it up by editing, deletion or removal (to a new thread) of unrelated posts.

So pochit,
I.