Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Rogi]

I like what I have read and agree with most of his points and only hope that future Greek leaders share these views.

On the point of religion, I don't think it is Religion per se that is the problem, rather the Church, specifically the Patriarchate as mentioned, which was perhaps the single largest contributor to the tragic history of the Macedonians at the hands of the Greeks. I make the distinction, and emphasize it, between the Religion and the Church; many Churches are no longer (some have not been for a very, very long time, centuries even) religious institutions, not in the true sense of the word anyway.

[fyrOM]

English to Macedonian translation

Премиерот: Мислења во грчки документи треба да се читаат со резервации
Среда 15 Септември, 2010

Премиерот Никола Груевски ги повика мислења наведени во грчките весници околу проблемот со името да биде перцепирано со резервација во наредниот период, до локалните избори во Грција.

"Медијаторот (Метју) Нимиц не поднесе нов предлог за Македонија, а Грција не го потврди тоа што поднесе оставка своето" erga omnes "барања. Всушност, кампањата за локалните избори, е лансиран во Грција. Затоа мислењата кои се презентирани во весници во врска со спорот за името не треба да бидат лесно прифатени. Од друга страна, тие не треба да бидат исклучени од нашите анализи и дневни коментари било, но треба да се гледа со резерва ", рече Груевски пред новинарите во средата.

Запрашан за условите на членови вклучени во анти-корупциската комисија, премиерот рече дека тие треба да станат професионални според препораката на повеќе институции, вклучувајќи ја и Европската унија.

"Условите на членови во Антикорупциската комисија треба да бидат професионални. Нивното барање за 1.900.000 € овозможување на Комисијата да функционира правилно ќе бидат исполнети", изјави премиерот Груевски.

PM: Opinions in Greek Papers should be read with reservations

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/16475/1/

Wednesday, 15 September 2010

Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski urges opinions outlined in Greek newspapers involving the name issue to be perceived with reservation in the coming period until the local elections in Greece.

"Mediator (Matthew) Nimetz hasn't submitted a new proposal to Macedonia, while Greece hasn't confirmed that it quits its "erga omnes" demands. In fact, the campaign for local elections has been launched in Greece. Therefore opinions which are presented in the newspapers about the name dispute should not be easily accepted. On the other hand, they should not be excluded from our analyses and daily commentaries either, but need to be perceived with reservation", Gruevski told reporters on Wednesday.

Asked about the terms of members engaged in the Anti-Corruption Commission, the PM said they should become professional under the recommendation of many institutions, including the European Union.

"The terms of members in the Anti-Corruption Commission need to be professional. Their request for 1.9 million euros enabling the Commission to function properly will be met", PM Gruevski stated.

[indigen]

Originalniot teks moze da go najdete ovde:

http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=58803&colid=37&catid=42&dt=2010-09-12%200:0:0

Bi bilo dobro nekoj koj go znae jazikot da go razgleda originalniot tekst. "Sluchajno" od Sitel da nemaat neshto ispushteno da prenesat.

Dali ovaa "vest" treba da ne "raduva" nas Makedoncite i dali istotaka mislite deka e nekoja novina vakvata pozicija na "Einiki Dimokratia" (Hellenic Republic) ili e potvrduvanje na neshto shto e nejzina stara pozicija?

Vtoro, zoshto mislite ni e nametnata IZMISLICATA (kovanica/ta) "USTAVNO/TO IME"?

[Bratot]

доколку се дефинираме како Вардарска Македонија, народот ќе биде квалификуван како Вардарски Македонци, на исто рамниште со Грчки Македонци или Бугарски Македонци, додека истите ќе го задржат непроменет својот примарен идентитет - Грци и Бугари, ние ќе останеме заглавени со локално значење на идентитетот, без национално-етничка одредница.

Во кратки црти, во Македонија сите ќе си го задржат примарниот идентитет освен Македонците, Албанците ќе си бидат Албанци, Грците - Грци, Бугарите - Бугари, а Македонците - Вардарски Македонци, со што ќе се оствари грчко-бугарскиот сон за географско значење на македонскиот идентитет.

Како и да е, за промена на името не смее да се размислува, знаете, целта на медиумите не е да не убедуваат дека името мора да се смени, туку да почнеме да дебатираме за тоа кое име најмногу ни одговара.

[indigen]

English to Macedonian translation

You will not convince me that you are from Australia or that you are even of Macedonian (ethnic) ancestry as long as you are hiding your IP address (not that I can see it but I have read this as being the case from Admin posts). If I was the Admin, I would ban posters hiding their IP address!

Lastly, spare me (us) your excuses and, if your are really from Oz, pop out to an Internet cafe, which are quite common in all towns and cities here, near you on a few occasions and show us that you are from where you claim to be. That being said, I know of a at least one non Macedonian (US based) that can masquerade as a Mak and has been a participant on many a Mak forum/list and had the habit of posting under various assumed ids and persona.

[julie]

OziMak, you cant be serious, not to think its such a bad thing??
NO
NO negotiations
NO prefixes/suffixes
NO referendums

Yes, it is a bad thing, why the hell should the people in Egey be disadvantaged (moeto poteklo e od egejska makedonia)

[DedoAleko]

Dali ovaa "vest" treba da ne "raduva" nas Makedoncite i dali istotaka mislite deka e nekoja novina vakvata pozicija na "Einiki Dimokratia" (Hellenic Republic) ili e potvrduvanje na neshto shto e nejzina stara pozicija?

Vtoro, zoshto mislite ni e nametnata IZMISLICATA (kovanica/ta) "USTAVNO/TO IME"?

Jas navistina ne gledam pricina zoshto na nekoj (Makedonec) bi go raduvala ovaa vest(?!)
Na sekoj Makedonec mu e kristalno jasno deka bilo kakvi otstapki ili menuvanje na imeto ke znaci ushte edna shajka poveke vo sandukot koj ni go podgotvuva "grcija" t.e francija, germanija, shpanija, anglija,avstralija,...

[fyrOM]

Indigen I am honestly glad to see that Macedonian suspicion is alive and well as we have much to be suspicious about as anyone with even a basic understanding of our history knows how Macedonians have been screwed over by not only external forces pretending to want to help Macedonia but also by many Macedonian traitors so I do not feel bad about your post.

If you look in the English text you will find the link to MINA that is the Macedonian International News Agency which uses the web site address www.macedoniaonline.eu. I do not control the MINA web site which uses the English language instead of Macedonian with Cyrillic scrip. I can only think they use the English language to be accessible to a wider audience.

The article I have posted relates to the threads topic so I though it relevant to include it here. A simple copy and past would have resulted in the English text that you can see in my post. Seeing this thread is in the
Macedonian Truth Forum > На Македонски forum I thought it would be better or more respectful to have the Cyrillic script version of the text.

Firstly I do not have Cyrillic characters on my computer so even if I was bothered to translate the text I could not type it out in Cyrillic characters but also I am not that fluent in Macedonian and my translation would appear simple at best and possibly not that accurate. Rather than having a go at translating the text I used Google translate.

In a different thread where I had used Google translate from Macedonian to English the Google program made an error and was correctly recognised by a member of the MTO as not being a correct translation so in this instance I was only making it public that the Macedonian text is from Google translate and that one should be careful that Google has translated it correctly. I am only trying to be upfront and transparent to avoid any unintentioned misunderstandings.

As to you post

You will not convince me that you are from Australia or that you are even of Macedonian (ethnic) ancestry as long as you are hiding your IP address (not that I can see it but I have read this as being the case from Admin posts). If I was the Admin, I would ban posters hiding their IP address!

I do not even know how to hide my IP address other than what I have read on the internet that some people use proxy servers to re rout their connection and so remain anonymous. I do not use a proxy server and can only think that if you cannot see my IP address it is because I have the security program on my computer set to high and may be preventing my IP address being displayed. I have the security settings set to high as I have had virus problems in the past resulting in a lot of wasted time reformatting my computer and reinstalling all my software so I am careful about viruses and not particularly making a conscious decision to hide my IP address if indeed this is the case.

As to proving I am an ethnic Macedonian I really do not know how to do this. A similar question about my ethnicity was asked by SoM back in early August of this year. Rather than repeating my reply you can see it as Post 095 Page 10 where I replied in the Macedonian language using the English characters as I do not have Cyrillic characters on my computer.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3940&page=10

It will sort of give you an idea to the level of my proficiency in the Macedonian language. I can only hope this is enough to alleviate any concerns you or any others may have about my ethnicity. But also do have a look at Post 101 Page 11

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3940&page=11

[fyrOM]

Indigen as to the topic of the thread and posts relating to it

From reading past posts in different threads I think one could generalise that most if not all posters from the Australian diaspora are for ending the name negotiations immediately with a flat NO to any name change proposal. I can only guess that you think that any ethnic Macedonian from Australia MUST have this same view as they all do don’t they and that it is only those usa Macedonians who have differing views or else it must be a spy. Would I be correct in thinking that this generalisation is also going towards your doubting I am an ethnic Macedonian in general let alone one from Australia if indeed I am an ethnic Macedonian.

It may come to you as a surprise that indeed I am an ethnic Macedonian and living in Australia most of my life but I can assure you this is the case.

I have said in the past that I have looked at video clips from Gruevski and Ivanov and they both appear to be intelligent people who fully understand the significants of any name change to our identity yet still persist with the name negotiations even after the diasporas’ add campaign to end all negotiations. What can one conclude with such evidence are they traitors. I have also said in the past that from viewing the video clips of both men it is in my opinion that from their body language they are NOT traitors who would sign over our identity. I have said they do not strike me as being whiter than white and it would not surprise me to hear in the future that maybe a denar or three fell into their pocket but I did not expect to hear this not because of the degree of their honesty but the degree of their intelligence and hence ability to hide it. Further I have said I understand the game they are playing and that I can see the merit of their actions but also the risks.

Contra to the generalisation outlined above my understanding of their game has led me to conclude that I do not feel as strongly about ending the name negotiation immediately as some do so yes it is possible to be an ethnic Macedonian from Australia and not harbour the exact same feelings that you and others seem to think is some kind conclusive and unanimous resolution of the Australian diaspora.

Rather than turning this thread into a debate about the merits or lack thereof in continuing the name negotiations in general I would like to focus on the topic at hand in this thread.

[fyrOM]

It is a BIG IF as to the accuracy of the claims made in the news article posted by DedoAleko but they do lead us to an interesting question that I posed in Post011.

Julie please note the claims made in the article are for a name with some prefix or suffix which is to be used ONLY in bilateral relations with Greece and that Republic of Macedonia will be used by EVERYONE else in the world.

Given that RoM will be established as our country name and identity as Macedonians is if this were put to a referendum an opportunity too good to pass up.

I realise there are more questions that need to be answered to clarify the position or more accurately to identify them as potential pitfalls.

I also note that the Egej Macedonians may be the only ones adversely effected by such a decision but probably for only a period of time and not forever.

I put it to the forum in Post011 that this might be a viable option.

To clarify my reasoning if we list what is important to us as Macedonians and then prioritise these items I think the preservation of our name and identity hit the top of the list. This dual formula idea seems to do just what we want conclusively on a world stage yet albeit with one caveat ie in dealing with Greece and how the Egej Macedonians will be referred to. Do we grab the most important part and work towards to rest or do we holdout for more and risk everything. I am not only referring to the name and identity but the assistance Macedonia has been receiving to date.

[indigen]

It is a BIG IF as to the accuracy of the claims made in the news article posted by DedoAleko but they do lead us to an interesting question that I posed in Post011.

Julie please note the claims made in the article are for a name with some prefix or suffix which is to be used ONLY in bilateral relations with Greece and that Republic of Macedonia will be used by EVERYONE else in the world.

Given that RoM will be established as our country name and identity as Macedonians is if this were put to a referendum an opportunity too good to pass up.

I realise there are more questions that need to be answered to clarify the position or more accurately to identify them as potential pitfalls.

I also note that the Egej Macedonians may be the only ones adversely effected by such a decision but probably for only a period of time and not forever.

I put it to the forum in Post011 that this might be a viable option.

To clarify my reasoning if we list what is important to us as Macedonians and then prioritise these items I think the preservation of our name and identity hit the top of the list. This dual formula idea seems to do just what we want conclusively on a world stage yet albeit with one caveat ie in dealing with Greece and how the Egej Macedonians will be referred to. Do we grab the most important part and work towards to rest or do we holdout for more and risk everything. I am not only referring to the name and identity but the assistance Macedonia has been receiving to date.

What a (NON (and anti) MACEDONIAN) MORON you are!!!

[fyrOM]

I suppose you think that when RoM is recognised all the Greeks will just pack up and leave Egej and leave all the infrastructure businesses factories and homes to you.hahaha

[indigen]

Indigen I am honestly glad to see that Macedonian suspicion is alive and well as we have much to be suspicious about as anyone with even a basic understanding of our history knows how Macedonians have been screwed over by not only external forces pretending to want to help Macedonia but also by many Macedonian traitors so I do not feel bad about your post.

Blah blah blah...now pull the other one!

Firstly I do not have Cyrillic characters on my computer so even if I was bothered to translate the text I could not type it out in Cyrillic characters but also I am not that fluent in Macedonian and my translation would appear simple at best and possibly not that accurate. Rather than having a go at translating the text I used Google translate.

I don't know what OS you are using but MSoft Windows XP/Vista/Win7 (English version) all have native support for Cyrillic fonts and it is only needed to add a keyboard selection in order to use and switch between various languages. Thus I don't buy your BS about lack of "Cyrillic fonts" and you can try and pull the wool over the eyes of some other ignorant fool.

In a different thread where I had used Google translate from Macedonian to English the Google program made an error and was correctly recognised by a member of the MTO as not being a correct translation so in this instance I was only making it public that the Macedonian text is from Google translate and that one should be careful that Google has translated it correctly. I am only trying to be upfront and transparent to avoid any unintentional misunderstandings.

Google is a waste of time and can lead to MISINFORMATION if not checked for basic errors. IMO, it also shows that you are relying on Google for your information and thus you are poorly informed as a result.

As to you post

You will not convince me that you are from Australia or that you are even of Macedonian (ethnic) ancestry as long as you are hiding your IP address (not that I can see it but I have read this as being the case from Admin posts). If I was the Admin, I would ban posters hiding their IP address!

I do not even know how to hide my IP address other than what I have read on the internet that some people use proxy servers to re rout their connection and so remain anonymous. I do not use a proxy server and can only think that if you cannot see my IP address it is because I have the security program on my computer set to high and may be preventing my IP address being displayed. I have the security settings set to high as I have had virus problems in the past resulting in a lot of wasted time reformatting my computer and reinstalling all my software so I am careful about viruses and not particularly making a conscious decision to hide my IP address if indeed this is the case.

Now this IS PURE BULLSHIT LYING on your part!!!

The following will show that you know that we know you are hiding your IP address and that you do it deliberately:

06-24-2010
Risto the Great
Administrator

"OziMak, no big deal re the 2 threads....
I am pretty confident (notwithstanding your kangaroo fetish) you are not an Australian.."

06-25-2010
Risto the Great
Administrator

"...No worries OziMak, I don't hide my IP address by the way ... just for something different..."

Soldier of Macedon
08-06-2010,
OziMak, can you speak Macedonian? Are you really from Australia?

OziMak
08-10-2010
Being from Australia.
Speaking English or using the local colloquialism or referring to local places only shows a familiarity with these things. Eg movie stars who have come to Australia for a brief stint speak English and for fun have learned an aussie word or three and have even tried their hand at speaking with an aussie accent and knowing a few local sites only shows some familiarity.

With lots of ONLINE (plus published) literature on the above subject/s, it is not that difficult to try to pass oneself as an "OziMak" but you just don't appear as natural. Talking about having watched the "Today Show" on channel 9 (or any other TV show) does NOT really impress either as all this is available online to anyone with decent Broadband access.

An IP address would be more confirmation of my physical location but secure server services can rout my IP to be from anywhere.

HERE WE HAVE THE PROOF THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT AND THAT YOU ARE LYING!!! I would like to know what this "secure server service" is that you have on a personal computer that would hide your IP address!!! It certainly is NOT obtainable via "high security" settings on your browser!

Sadly it is difficult to be certain of a persons location or background from behind a computer screen. Yes we have all heard the police can do it somehow but I don’t know how.

No it is not! IP addresses are generally visible and can show who is your ISP provider and their location address. Thus if you are from Australia, your ISP would be located there too!

WHY DON'T YOU SHOW (to ADMIN) YOUR IP ADDRESS IF YOU ARE GENUINE?

So I don’t know anyway of proving I am Macedonian nor from Australia short of providing verifiable details which would identify me. I understand this is not a requirement of this site and nor would I want to.

I described a VERY SIMPLE METHOD in the post above - go to an INTERNET CAFE (in your local "Australian neighbourhood") and post from there a few times!!! Is that so difficult to do? :-)

[Bratot]

I described a VERY SIMPLE METHOD in the post above - go to an INTERNET CAFE (in your local "Australian neighbourhood") and post from there a few times!!! Is that so difficult to do? :-)

.. or ask some Greek friend from Australia!


Hey, I'm only tryin to help

[indigen]

Jas navistina ne gledam pricina zoshto na nekoj (Makedonec) bi go raduvala ovaa vest(?!)
Na sekoj Makedonec mu e kristalno jasno deka bilo kakvi otstapki ili menuvanje na imeto ke znaci ushte edna shajka poveke vo sandukot koj ni go podgotvuva "grcija" t.e francija, germanija, shpanija, anglija,avstralija,...

Tochno taka ama bash ne mozham da razberam kako bezpotrebno se isprkjaat temi so vakvi naslovi. Jas lichno ne gledam deka ima nekakva korist (i naprotiv mislam deka e shtetno!) da Makedoncite postojano se zanimavaat so vakvi temi!

So pochit,
I.