Australian position on Macedonia

[TajnataKniga]

dedicated

There are many vultures to blame, but I thought this thread was specifically in relation to the anti-American sentiment that emanates from Australia, including Australia's Macedonian community.

Indeed they have, that there is a dedicated group of Macedonians who fight for our rights with dignity.

isnt UMD fighting for "our" rights with dignity?

[TajnataKniga]

ha

Trade with everyone and alliances with noone, I like the notion.

good luck my friend. what about russia, china, and turkey?

[Big Bad Sven]

That coalition is a result of American meddling in Macedonian affairs. Do you think there would have been such obligations prior to America's intervention and assistance to the terrorists in 2001? Of course not.

Australia may be stupidly passive where it concerns the Macedonia-Greece issue, but it didn't send in its forces to assist the terrorists in 2001 against the Macedonian people, nor did it provide an avenue of escape when a Macedonian victory was imminent.

I think some people need to look back at Macedonian-American relations prior to the 21st century, somebody that has bullied me and supported bullies and enemies against me for decades does not automatically become my best friend because they decided to call us by our name a few years ago.

Someone who basically owns NATO yet does nothing but 'talk' when we are prohibited from entering that organisation is no best friend of mine. The US recognition of Macedonia is a token gesture, they have given that to us, but look back and see what they have taken?

1) Macedonian lives during bombing campaigns
2) Integrity and pride, where we are now made to feel like second-class citizens in our own country
3) Macedonian power diminished at the expense of further ethnic Albanian extremism
4) Macedonian soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan
5) Territory for their new base in Skopje

I am sure there are other things they have taken also. What have we taken from this best 'friendship'? The god-given right to be identified with our true name? God bless America!!

Well said.

I will never forget the day when the yanks saved the surrounded Albanian terrorists and bussed them off to safety. It must have morally crushed the Macedonian soldiers and citizens. Absolutely disgusting.

Wasn’t there a American politician who recently said Macedonia was a “unimportant country in the middle of nowhere” LOL

[Soldier of Macedon]

Isnt UMD fighting for "our" rights with dignity?

What led you to draw such a parallel between the AMHRC and the UMD? In answer to your question, I think some of the UMD's dignity has been compromised due to the statements made from some of its board members.

Have you been following the other threads, have you watched the ZMR interview with the UMD president? Do you think the acceptance of a name change is dignified?

good luck my friend. what about russia, china, and turkey?

I'd rather rely on logic and integrity than luck. What about them? Do we have to be binded by alliances to share good relations with those nations? What sort of alliances are you proposing TK, and on what basis do you support such alliances, give us a precendent of where such alliances have been beneficial for Macedonia in the past. I am sure many are interested in finding out more.

[TajnataKniga]

question

What led you to draw such a parallel between the AMHRC and the UMD? In answer to your question, I think some of the UMD's dignity has been compromised due to the statements made from some of its board members.

Have you been following the other threads, have you watched the ZMR interview with the UMD president? Do you think the acceptance of a name change is dignified?

I'd rather rely on logic and integrity than luck. What about them? Do we have to be binded by alliances to share good relations with those nations? What sort of alliances are you proposing TK, and on what basis do you support such alliances, give us a precendent of where such alliances have been beneficial for Macedonia in the past. I am sure many are interested in finding out more.

i am new to the forum so have not seen all the threads...what is a ZMR interview and what is the link?

sadly macedonia does not have much of a past as an independent state so there have been minimal alliances. it seems that the US and turkey have been positive alliances (debatable by some). thanks to turkey, there is a note on every nato document saying that turkey recognizes macedonia with an asterisk mark next to every reference to macedonia.

gruevski's government has been the first government to put emphasis on a relationship with israel, so the alliance with israel may bring much fruit.

also, netherlands has been a good friend to macedonia. it is one of the biggest donors in macedonia. over 195 euros have been given in aid to macedonia. see http://www.finance.gov.mk/files/u5/Fact_Sheet_2009.pdf a lot of dutch tourists go to macedonia, thanks to a. den doolaard (there is a monument to him in ohrid). see http://www.kvkmk.org/news/final_dcc_newsletter_eng.pdf

[Big Bad Sven]

i am new to the forum so have not seen all the threads...what is a ZMR interview and what is the link?

sadly macedonia does not have much of a past as an independent state so there have been minimal alliances. it seems that the US and turkey have been positive alliances (debatable by some). thanks to turkey, there is a note on every nato document saying that turkey recognizes macedonia with an asterisk mark next to every reference to macedonia.

gruevski's government has been the first government to put emphasis on a relationship with israel, so the alliance with israel may bring much fruit.

also, netherlands has been a good friend to macedonia. it is one of the biggest donors in macedonia. over 195 euros have been given in aid to macedonia. see http://www.finance.gov.mk/files/u5/Fact_Sheet_2009.pdf a lot of dutch tourists go to macedonia, thanks to a. den doolaard (there is a monument to him in ohrid). see http://www.kvkmk.org/news/final_dcc_newsletter_eng.pdf

Slovenia never had a nation or even a kingdom in its entire history and officially became “Slovenia” in the 1920’s while in Yugoslavia. It hasn’t stopped them from making good ties with certain countries and progressing far.

We can’t use the excuse of Macedonia being late to the independence scene.

Macedonia is where it is today because of idiot and traitor politicians and their stupid decisions, and also because of politics played out by the world powers, who seem to support our enemies instead of us.

[TajnataKniga]

who holds these "idiot and traitor politicans" accountable?

the faiths of many countries were decided by the world powers for centuries, its always been that way, its real politik. how does one turn real politik into ones favor?

[Soldier of Macedon]

how does one turn real politik into ones favor?

Good question, there is alot of work involved, I think for that issue solidifying internal unity is the key.

i am new to the forum so have not seen all the threads...what is a ZMR interview and what is the link?

Check page 2 and 3 of this thread.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2354&page=3

Let us know your thoughts on the suggestions made regarding a name change.

[Phoenix]

TajnataKniga, here's some interesting reading for you...

It was promoted (in 2001) by a Canadian group called... 'United Macedonians'.

In recent weeks there's been a movement growing, largely initiated over at the Maknews Forum by the Grand Poobah himself as well as agitators like Buktop, it's a movement that has attempted to portray the Australian Macedonian community as "anti-American" en masse.

Sadly, your thread has in a very amateurish way at least, tried to bring the Maknews sponsored anti-Australian Macedonian smear campaign across to this forum.

What shits me no end about you American arse kissers is your inability to look further than the ends of your crooked noses, even when presented with the evil doings of American foreign policy since WWII on the World stage and specifically in relation to Macedonia during the periods already discussed by SoM ('greek' Civil War period and post Macedonian Independence to present).
Somehow, you find solace with your heads buried in the sand.

T-Kniga, in all of your feigning naivete you still couldn't help but to bring the issue of UMD to the table, which completes the puzzle that was largely started over at the Maknews Forum, where the words...
'UMD'...'Australian anti-Americanism'...and 'Australian agenda' all seem to come together.

Tell me Kniga, what is the relationship between the perceived Australian anti-Americanism and UMD...does somebody at UMD fear the Australians strong views on this, do these views go against the 'grain' of UMD policy, do these views from the Australian Macedonian community 'undermine' the cosy relationship between UMD and their landlords in Washington and has UMD become the voice of American foreign policy, putting American interests ahead of Macedonia's...

Is UMD a tool of American foreign policy and is it going to be used to tell the Macedonian people whats best for them, without the Macedonians thinking for themselves...

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/washington.html

[TajnataKniga]

others

[QUOTE=Phoenix;31386]TajnataKniga, here's some interesting reading for you...

It was promoted (in 2001) by a Canadian group called... 'United Macedonians'.

In recent weeks there's been a movement growing, largely initiated over at the Maknews Forum by the Grand Poobah himself as well as agitators like Buktop, it's a movement that has attempted to portray the Australian Macedonian community as "anti-American" en masse.

Sadly, your thread has in a very amateurish way at least, tried to bring the Maknews sponsored anti-Australian Macedonian smear campaign across to this forum.

What shits me no end about you American arse kissers is your inability to look further than the ends of your crooked noses, even when presented with the evil doings of American foreign policy since WWII on the World stage and specifically in relation to Macedonia during the periods already discussed by SoM ('greek' Civil War period and post Macedonian Independence to present).
Somehow, you find solace with your heads buried in the sand.

T-Kniga, in all of your feigning naivete you still couldn't help but to bring the issue of UMD to the table, which completes the puzzle that was largely started over at the Maknews Forum, where the words...
'UMD'...'Australian anti-Americanism'...and 'Australian agenda' all seem to come together.

Tell me Kniga, what is the relationship between the perceived Australian anti-Americanism and UMD...does somebody at UMD fear the Australians strong views on this, do these views go against the 'grain' of UMD policy, do these views from the Australian Macedonian community 'undermine' the cosy relationship between UMD and their landlords in Washington and has UMD become the voice of American foreign policy, putting American interests ahead of Macedonia's...

Is UMD a tool of American foreign policy and is it going to be used to tell the Macedonian people whats best for them, without the Macedonians thinking for themselves...

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/mac...ashington.html[/QUOTE

you are barking on the wrong trip my friend. i agree with you that the american foreign policy has not been all dandy towards macedonia. what i want to know which i believe we answered above is whether macedonians in australia are anti-american because of general australian views, or because what america has done to the macedonians. we answered it, the later.

i dont know what is being posted on maknews forum, but will check it out, my membership to the forum has not been approved yet.

i read the article that is on the united macedonians website and its the same article i read in 2001 by the global politican posted before.

i strongly believe what america has done to macedonia is far less than what europe has done to macedonia. america didnt divide macedonia in four parts. im a third generation macedonian so dont know about the framework, i know what my grandparents had to go through at the hands of the grease and vulgarians, with the help of many powers, including america. how much money did america plug into grease through the german marshall fund and grease used it against macedonians? well time to change that. put things in our hands.

what did macedonians in the diaspora do to prevent the framework agreement? how many meetings did macedonians hold with the government in the US and europe? real politik is, sadly, macedonians are not as active as they should be. albanians donate and give millions to government people in the US and europe. what do we give? and you are surprised albanians got the support we didnt?

based on what i have read it doesnt seem UMD is the american foreign policy machine. doesnt UMD have australian members and a branch there? it looks like UMD is trying to change things for macedonians and make us more united and more powerful. and this is what i applaud. good for them! i dont see how they harmed the macedonian cause.

[TajnataKniga]

also re the framework agreement, why did macedonians in tetovo move out and leave tetovo to the albanians? why did they sell their homes and apartments to albanians in the past? we are to blame. real politik. i know a family in macedonia who wants to sell their home to albanians because albanians will give more (the area they live in has no albanians - once they sell their home more albanians will want to move in). i begged them to not sell it. no news yet.

[TajnataKniga]

yugoslav

Good question, there is alot of work involved, I think for that issue solidifying internal unity is the key.

Check page 2 and 3 of this thread.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2354&page=3

Let us know your thoughts on the suggestions made regarding a name change.

ahhh the mistakes of our compatriots for allowing us to take a name with the words 'former' and 'yugoslav'!!! now we the present generation has to undue this. i saw the zmr interview, and not going to defend it but here is what i will say to you and all here...

nekoy pamiten ne se nayde who would withdraw from these stupid negotiations on the un, and nobody has balls enough to withdraw macedonia's membership at the un and reapply as macedonia (makedonia)! im against a change to my name! i was not born in yugoslavia nor were my parents, nor were my grandparents. i dont want the word 'yugoslav' to describe the place i come from! no! no! so how do we change it? macedonia doesnt look like it will risk its membership at the un (frankly, there are no real benefits of un membership) so what do we do? macedonia remains in these negotiations - real politik! i know all the legal arguments, so spare me. macedonia knowingly all legal arguments signed the interim accord and entered in these negotiations. gruevski met with papandreou-idiot twice and reiterated that macedonia is committed to these negotiations. so if they are going to stay in the negotiations, what do we do to help them? i dont want the name north macedonia, then we will be northern macedonians, f*** no. im not sure where meto got the idea for 'democratic' but doesnt sound so bad to replace 'yugoslav' watch the rest of the interview, the guy seems to know what he is talking about. it is not perfect, but pretty darn good compared to what some other idiots in macedonia are saying, like crvenkapa. watching this interview i dont see how meto has compromised the macedonian cause.

now real politik, whatever, greeks will not accept anything less then northern macedonia for all use, so we know the issue wont get solved as gruevski wont sell out (i hope he wont! - so help him jesus if he does). macedonia needs to increase its alliances and lobby, friends friends. and let friends pressure grease, maybe this economic crisis. we, abroad, can help, so my question to all of you here is how can we help? we can push for ending all the negotiations all we want, but we'll still have a neighbor working against us and against our people in and out of grease. how do we help macedonia? macedonia now depends on greek money and starting soon a lot of bulgarian money, and serbian. albanians are going to overrun the country too...what do we do? i want to hear what you will say? how do we help AMHRC and UMD and others help macedonia? we need to solidify internal unity.

[Warrior]

I am not sure what is the point of this thread and original poster seems to be flip flopping as to what he/she are trying to achieve.
Are Oz-Macos anti US? I dont think so. Are American policies anti Maco?? You can bet your house on it!!! If you are telling someone how to live, then you are anti. Therefore these people on the forum are standing up and saying what needs to be said, that doesnt make them anti!!! Not in my eyes anyway...They are protecting the Maco way of existence.

Is UMD a voice for the Americal interests in Maco and throughout the Maco diaspora? Well, just have a look at the UMD president during his recent interview with the Macedonian media and the badge he was wearing. That tells me where UMD wants to see Macedonia. Is that a good thing or not? Again i dont think we can answer that currently, but have a look at the past and how many so called friends of America have been screwed by America due to the fact their interests are not served anymore.....Bin Laden is a perfect example along with Iraq. So can you trust America or any friend that has such past?

[indigen]

who holds these "idiot and traitor politicans" accountable?

the faiths of many countries were decided by the world powers for centuries, its always been that way, its real politik. how does one turn real politik into ones favor?

I don't know about "faiths" but the ideology of "Fate" is good cover for those preaching subservience and slave mentality - the sellouts!

You must have gone to the Meto Koloski/Buktop and Co. school of "realpolitik" then?


Can one conclude that the MK government would be better served and better positioned to defend Macedonian national interests in the world of realpolitik if it had a vigorous and active opposition, especially in the Diaspora, to the planned deconstruction agendas of the "IC"?

If Macedonian Diaspora wants to play realpoitik games, it must organise and actively mobilise its human and material resources to effect change inside the Macedonian state, as the "IC", MPO, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albanians are, and have been, doing.

Lastly, can you, Kniga, tell us why the US of A recognised Macedonia by her state (rightful) name in 2004?

[indigen]

TajnataKniga, here's some interesting reading for you...

It was promoted (in 2001) by a Canadian group called... 'United Macedonians'.

In recent weeks there's been a movement growing, largely initiated over at the Maknews Forum by the Grand Poobah himself as well as agitators like Buktop, it's a movement that has attempted to portray the Australian Macedonian community as "anti-American" en masse.

Sadly, your thread has in a very amateurish way at least, tried to bring the Maknews sponsored anti-Australian Macedonian smear campaign across to this forum.

What shits me no end about you American arse kissers is your inability to look further than the ends of your crooked noses, even when presented with the evil doings of American foreign policy since WWII on the World stage and specifically in relation to Macedonia during the periods already discussed by SoM ('greek' Civil War period and post Macedonian Independence to present).
Somehow, you find solace with your heads buried in the sand.

T-Kniga, in all of your feigning naivete you still couldn't help but to bring the issue of UMD to the table, which completes the puzzle that was largely started over at the Maknews Forum, where the words...
'UMD'...'Australian anti-Americanism'...and 'Australian agenda' all seem to come together.

Tell me Kniga, what is the relationship between the perceived Australian anti-Americanism and UMD...does somebody at UMD fear the Australians strong views on this, do these views go against the 'grain' of UMD policy, do these views from the Australian Macedonian community 'undermine' the cosy relationship between UMD and their landlords in Washington and has UMD become the voice of American foreign policy, putting American interests ahead of Macedonia's...

Is UMD a tool of American foreign policy and is it going to be used to tell the Macedonian people whats best for them, without the Macedonians thinking for themselves...

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/mac...ashington.html

Very good analysis, bratko.