Australian position on Macedonia

[Prolet]

SOM, This is a guy who comes to our functions "Supposedly a Pro Macedonian Politician" says dobar den before his speeches and now he is stating that there is little hope of Australia ever recognizing us. What are we Macedonians suppose to think now?? He eats and drinks at our functions and has done hardly anything you can label as Pro Macedonian. Im not too sure what our Community Leaders are doing about all this, what will they tell our people now that there is very little chance of gaining name recognition?? Whats the main purpose of lobbying, if there is little hope for us?? Why should people donate money from their businesses for nothing?? I dont know about you SOM but after this visit from Harry Jenkins alarm bells should be ringing in our community, this is a real headache for us.

[Brygian Seed]

There is a strong Greek lobby within Australian politics. But, more importantly, the politicians are aware that for every Macedonian vote there are four Greek votes. Its simple maths, there are more Greeks in Australia than Macedonians.

[Prolet]

What about Macedonians from Egejska Makedonija?? The Greeks count them as Greek.

[Pelister]

SOM, This is a guy who comes to our functions "Supposedly a Pro Macedonian Politician" says dobar den before his speeches and now he is stating that there is little hope of Australia ever recognizing us. What are we Macedonians suppose to think now?? He eats and drinks at our functions and has done hardly anything you can label as Pro Macedonian. Im not too sure what our Community Leaders are doing about all this, what will they tell our people now that there is very little chance of gaining name recognition?? Whats the main purpose of lobbying, if there is little hope for us?? Why should people donate money from their businesses for nothing?? I dont know about you SOM but after this visit from Harry Jenkins alarm bells should be ringing in our community, this is a real headache for us.

If we begin proceedings to overturn the acronym FYROM at the U.N and have our constitutional name admitted, then Australia will have no choice but to recognize us. That is what Australia have been saying, in any case.

[makedonche]

Pelister,
That's exactly what we need to do, commence proceedings at the UN for recognition!
One of the politicians on Adelaide once told me that to have influence at political party level you need to be a member of the party before anyone is going to listen to you. I think that's wise advice and we should all become members of a political party in order to have any influence on policymaking and other affairs.

[Pelister]

Pelister,
That's exactly what we need to do, commence proceedings at the UN for recognition!
One of the politicians on Adelaide once told me that to have influence at political party level you need to be a member of the party before anyone is going to listen to you. I think that's wise advice and we should all become members of a political party in order to have any influence on policymaking and other affairs.

Whoever told you that knew exactly what they were talking about.

There are not alot of Macedonians who join political parties at the local branch, or write letters or are in the Australian political system.

But one thing is certain, the bullshit going on now with regards to negotiating our identity has been reckless, and very dysfunctional from day one.

The only way well get Australia, is if we overturn FYROM at the U>N and all the legal groundwork, and precedents needed for Macedonian to do exactly that are all in place. Gruevski only needs to have the courage to take that action.

[Prolet]

Pelister, What about our lobby in Australia should we just sit there with the fact that we'll never get recognized without a UN recognition?? Keep in mind that the name FYROM only stands for internal UN use and the Greeks have made a meal of it all. They have made it be used in Nato,EU and other organizations aswell as sporting and cultural federations.

This is a result of their lobbying and aggressiveness which has brought them alot of success against us.

Pelister, So in your opinion we should just sit back in Australia and pray that the UN names us as Republic of Macedonia?? Thats an act of failure surly.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The only way well get Australia, is if we overturn FYROM at the U>N and all the legal groundwork, and precedents needed for Macedonian to do exactly that are all in place.

When that day comes, let's hope Australia sticks to its words.

Until that day comes, all countries that do no recognise the Macedonian republic by its constitutional name, and have dealings with Macedonia, should be referred to by the latter with some sort of prefix to distinguish normal from abnormal.

[makedonche]

Whoever told you that knew exactly what they were talking about.

There are not alot of Macedonians who join political parties at the local branch, or write letters or are in the Australian political system.

But one thing is certain, the bullshit going on now with regards to negotiating our identity has been reckless, and very dysfunctional from day one.

The only way well get Australia, is if we overturn FYROM at the U>N and all the legal groundwork, and precedents needed for Macedonian to do exactly that are all in place. Gruevski only needs to have the courage to take that action.

Would proceeding down the path of overturning FYOM pose any economic/political problems for Gruevski & Ivanov? Is it a cost issue?
Does it jeopardise EU entry( not that I give a shit about EU), or cause any withdrawl of financing to the ROM?

[julie]

It will help in the same way it helped when the U.S and Canada recognized the Macedonian people and state. The situation with population ratio, etc is very similar to Australia - So why do Australian politicians fear the Greek lobby, whereas the Americans and Canadians have the integrity to tell the racist voices emanating from the said lobby to pull its head in? How many souvlaki's did it take to pay and fill the pockets of all you 'honourable' politicians?

Australia is supposed to be a democratic country mr Jenkins, allowing someone to self-identify freely, while on paper the government writes something differently is an INSULT and is RACIST.

From nothing....let's see, which nation or ethnicity of earth would be fine with self-identifying one way, and having the country they live in identify them in another? I seriously think the only way these fools are going to start getting the picture is if we return each 'favour' in kind. When Jenkins sits at official visits in Macedonia, he should not have 'Australia' listed as his representative country, but 'Anglo Convict Colony (Australis)' instead. Every idiocy we are faced with should be complimented in return to our so-called 'friends'. Every single one.

Absolutely, am tired of the bullshit, coming from the mouths of descendants of convicts - after all is not Australia officially The former British Convict Colony of Australia
am sick of it, and am disgusted, the most rascist country prides itself on equality, cultural diversity and the right to self determination.

[Pelister]

Would proceeding down the path of overturning FYOM pose any economic/political problems for Gruevski & Ivanov? Is it a cost issue?
Does it jeopardise EU entry( not that I give a shit about EU), or cause any withdrawl of financing to the ROM?

Very good question. It deserves a lengthy response.

To begin I would say that we should not be negotiating our identity, end of story. I have always believed that there was nothing in this world that could buy, blackmail or bribe us into negotiating our identity. Evidently I was wrong. Clearly the Macedonian government (and UMD) have other ideas, even though almost every Macedonian is against such action. It demonstrates that this government (and UMD) believe E.U membership is worth it. (The UMD vice-president made it clear recently). I am more concerned by the violation of representative government, and the fact that Gruevski is fully aware the Macedonian people want the negotiations to end now, and continues with them.

Do the supposed benefits of being a member of the E.U justify negotiating our identity ? In my opinion, no. There are several parts to this question. There is a considerable amount of doubt over just how being a member of the E.U will benefit Macedonia. There is the Ohrid Framework Agreement which has devolved power (handed administrative control, i.e., legal and civil) over two 1/3 of the country. If we become a member of the E.U we will be asked to give up more central authority in various areas of governance. In our particular situation I would make the case that it is political suicide. On the other hand, there are certain economic advantages to being a member of the E.U such a the hand-out of money. A closer look at this "advantage" reveals that it does not add up to much. The Macedonian economy is tiny and it has been shown that good bilateral relations with Turkey and Slovenia and the Ukraine, have had a very positive impact on our economy, in the villages and the towns. The Macedonian diaspora is perhaps the biggest investor. So the arguement is a weak one. On the issue of good governance, and best practice there are some benefits the E.U can give us, but we do not need to be a member to stream-line our institutions along European models, and we do not need to be a member to enjoy other important advantages, such as visa free travel which we now have. In other words this attitude in the government (and at UMD) that our purpose should be to enter the E.U, is misguided and reckless, specifically if you consider that the "negotiations" are about the term FYROM at the U.N. The Macedonians have never challenged this. They have assumed that they are blocked from the U.N, but they are not.

Turning now to the other part of your question, which is overturning FYROM at the U.N. The Macedonians have the laws of the U.N institution on their side, and a precedent. They would almost certainly win, and a win would defacto add I believe between 10-20 more countries to the list that recognize us. The U.N members would be asked to vote (following a decision by the I.C.J) in "good conscioucne" and most of them will side with the U.N Law in this regard. The political advantages of having FYROM overturned legally at the U.N are enormous for us, because it is the biggest political institution in the community of nations, and dwarfs the E.U and NATO by comparison. It gives the Macedonians enormous political clout in the NATO and E.U membership aspirations. It will have released an enormous amount of pressure off the Macedonians. It will also mean an end to the negotiations, but not for UMD because UMD propose a name change for the E.U and NATO only. So whether we had FYROM overturned or not, UMD are still for a name change, and are still behind the negotiations.

There are no disadvantages to having our constitutional name at the United Nations.

If we can do this, then Greece (and 2 or 3) or its supporters will be politically isolated.

Nothing should stop our recognition at the U.N, and anywhere else in the world. Greece may threaten, and even place an economic embargo on our Republic. The fact is that there has been a defacto embargo in place for the last 15 years. This is why most of the republic's growth over the last 3 years is coming from other countries, Turkey, Slovenia, Ukraine. I believe that the Macedonian government has been taking steps to look for business elsewhere. If an economic embargo is the result of being admiited to the U.N by our constitutional name, and pulling out of these "negotiations", it is worth it because it would be an embargo only in name.

There is nothing stopping us having FYROM overturned, and being reinstated by our constitutional name.

Full recognition.

[makedonche]

Pelister,
Many thanks for your detailed answer, I tend to concur with you, it defies logic to pursue the EU - I would be more inclined to let them chase us and tell them we'll let you know when wer'e ready! There is no name issue for me, it's not for sale or lease or negotiation! (although I get the impression ROM is playing along while they shore up support and get trading/security alliances in place, while keeping the grk woolves at bay)
UMD -if they read this I would be happier for them to refer to quotes in the Macedoniantruth forum for express opinions of diaspora Macedonians instead of making statements that claim to reflect the opinions and wishes of all/majority of diaspora Macedonians!

[TajnataKniga]

Australians' anti-American sentiment

few articles for review and comments

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=594

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/7/9/5/9/pages179594/p179594-1.php

[Soldier of Macedon]

TK, is it your opinion that Macedonians in Australia are often 'anti-US' because of the general feeling of animosity among many Australians towards Americans, or, because of the way America has treated Macedonia in the past decades (2001 assistance to terrorists, 1949 napalm bombing of villages, etc)?

[TajnataKniga]

i think it is the later. what do you think?

can you tell me more about the "1949 napalm of villages" and the "etc" part? i do not know about these.