Australian position on Macedonia

[indigen]

I think she is talking about the city of Macedonia in Ohio

http://www.macedonia.oh.us/

Excellent detective work, Prolet!

Haha...Is our Kniga a cheap propagandist manipulator?


FYI: There are quite a few (at least 20 +) Orthodox churches registered as Macedono-Bulgarian and I think they come under the jurisdiction of BOC (unless there is an independent BOC based in USA). I am not sure how they are incorporated, e.g. as MPO owned or independent incorporated church communities. Changing jurisdiction without the approval of the those that currently have it will not be easy (or even legally possible).

Cheers

[Big Bad Sven]

I would say you may already be a regular on this and Maknews forums but only the mods here may be able to determine who you are if they check some ip numbers with "network tools", provided one is not using some anonymizer account or posting from a different isp provider. BTW, I am not asking the mods to reveal anything.


You did not answer the following:

The REAL REASON (which was also the officaila one),...IMO, was to shore up Branko Crvenkovski and the SDSm government and to help him SINK the REFERENDUM for blocking the pro-Albanian territorial division of RoM. Had the referendum succeeded, the FA implementation might have fully unravelled and put into jeopardy USA strategic interests in "KOSOVA", e.g land and air supply routes for its troops at the "Camp Bondsteel" base.


As for opposing the "strong" Greek lobby, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLEAR TO ANYONE WHO WITNESSED THE 1999 WAR ON (BOMBING OF) SERBIA that it was/is of NO CONSEQUENCE WHEN IT CONFLICTS WITH US STRATEGIC INTERESTS. The "powerful" Greek lobby in Australia was nowhere to be seen and I dare say the US one was equally silent.

But that’s because we all know Grease doesn’t really care about Serbia

Remember Grease still allowed NATO ships to land in Grease, and travel up its northern borders and get to the republic of Macedonia.

They could have vetoed or done at least something to prevent their “orthodox brothers” from getting bombed back to the stone age.

The truth is the “Serbian-greek brotherhood” is a total farce, both sides, especially grease would stab each other in the back if there was something huge to gain. But the Balkan hill billys in Serbia are too dumb to work that out

[indigen]

But that’s because we all know Grease doesn’t really care about Serbia

Remember Grease still allowed NATO ships to land in Grease, and travel up its northern borders and get to the republic of Macedonia.

They could have vetoed or done at least something to prevent their “orthodox brothers” from getting bombed back to the stone age.

The truth is the “Serbian-greek brotherhood” is a total farce, both sides, especially grease would stab each other in the back if there was something huge to gain. But the Balkan hill billys in Serbia are too dumb to work that out

As I recall, the Greeks in HellAss showed some militancy and there was some serious large-scale protests but the "powerful" lobbies outside were quite as church mice.

[Big Bad Sven]

As I recall, the Greeks in HellAss showed some militancy and there was some serious large-scale protests but the "powerful" lobbies outside were quite as church mice.

Some interesting old articles from the time of the bombing of Serbia:

Date: 26 February 1999
Location: Thessaloniki port, Greece
Photographer: Capt Jim Gallagher

Major Andy Teitge of 17 Port and Maritime Regiment, Royal Logistics Corps, checks his rolling stock prior to the move north from Greece to FYROM.

Date: 28 February 1999
Location: Krivolac, Macedonia
Photographer: Capt Jim Gallagher

British Challenger main battle tank crews, of the Kings Royal Hussars, arrive in Krivolac military training area, in the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia, from Greece. These tank crews will carry out further training during the coming weeks whilst awaiting further orders

http://www.kosovo.mod.uk/pics/pics_ground.htm

In Greece, another NATO member, police clashed with demonstrators when about 200 people marched through the port of Piraeus, media reports said. No arrests or serious injuries were reported.
Greek officials and media have widely condemned the attacks on their traditional Serbian allies. President Costis Stephanopoulos expressed his country's "sympathy for the entire Serbian people, which is fighting for its rights."
Greece's air force has taken no direct role in the airstrikes, but leftist opposition parties are demanding that Athens halt logistic support for the campaign.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9903/27/kosovo.protests.02/

During the NATO campaign in Kosovo, the Greek and Turkish militaries worked side-by-side to help coordinate targeting strategies, expand lines of supply and reinforcement, and enhance logistic and operational capabilities for allied forces. After the campaign, the foreign ministers of Greece and Turkey announced a series of bilateral meetings to help begin a process of solving mutual problems in trade, tourism and environmental protection.

http://www.westernpolicy.org/PressRelease/pr19990920.asp

The “greek” government shed a few crocodile tears for their “orthodox brothers” the serbs during the bombing, but in private they where working with the rest of NATO to destroy the Serbian military.
The “greek” peasants genuinely cared about the serbs and protested to the very end, but they are just as stupid as their Serbian “brothers” and are easily manipulated by the “greek” government.

But I agree with you, when the US has decided on something lobbying by certain groups usually resorts to nothing. But I still wouldn’t sneeze at the “greek” or shiptar lobby, especially in the Balkan arena.

[Pelister]

Well then our definition of the Macedonian cause differs somewhat. If you see nothing wrong with what Meto said, then you are not lookiing at the matter objectively, and you are, for all intents and purposes, an apologist for him and his hazy policies and statements.

Henceforth, please refer to Macedonia as Democratic when in the context of international organisations, as Upper in the context of bilateral dealings, and as the Republic for all other uses - You have just admitted that you see no compromise in this, remember that.

And if those 3 variants aren't enough for you, create another one that can be used in the US, just in case the American arse requires a few more pecks.

UMD will deny, deny, deny til the cows come home.

[Prolet]

Excellent detective work, Prolet!

Haha...Is our Kniga a cheap propagandist manipulator?


FYI: There are quite a few (at least 20 +) Orthodox churches registered as Macedono-Bulgarian and I think they come under the jurisdiction of BOC (unless there is an independent BOC based in USA). I am not sure how they are incorporated, e.g. as MPO owned or independent incorporated church communities. Changing jurisdiction without the approval of the those that currently have it will not be easy (or even legally possible).

Cheers

Indigen, Spolaj Ti

How where these Churches registered and who's jurisdiction are they under?? What is under the control of Bishop Metodija??

There are 24 or so Macedonian Churches in North America so this means that MPO pretty much owns all of them.

[indigen]

Indigen, Spolaj Ti

How where these Churches registered and who's jurisdiction are they under?? What is under the control of Bishop Metodija??

There are 24 or so Macedonian Churches in North America so this means that MPO pretty much owns all of them.

No, these 24 MPC churches are/must be Macedonian only and should be under MPC jurisdiction or independent (if there are any registered in similar fashion to St George in Melb) and working with MPC and its clergy.

I don't know how the "Macedono-Bulgarian" churches are registered and who owns the title deeds but they come under Bulgarian Orthodox jurisdiction, either the BOC in Bulgaria or an American offshoot.

Google Search: Macedono-Bulgarian orthodox church


Further info:

Canada

The most recent Canadian census (1996), which provides for self-declaration of ethnic origin records 30 915 Macedonians in Canada - the sum total of individuals making single- or multiple-group responses.

The early immigrants to Toronto and their descendants founded 2 additional churches that are either under the spiritual jurisdiction of the patriarch in Bulgaria or are part of a Bulgarian diocese within the Orthodox Church in America. They are St. George Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church, which was founded in 1941, and Holy Trinity Macedono-Bulgarian Church, which was founded in 1976.

Postwar arrivals to Canada subsequently founded Macedonian Orthodox parishes under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Metropolitan and Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Skopje. They are as follows: St Clement of Ohrid, which was founded in Toronto in 1962; St Dimitria of Solun, which was founded in Markham in 1992; St Ilija, which was founded in Mississauga in 1979; St Sunday, which was founded in Ajax in 1993; and St Naum of Ohrid, which is located in Windsor.

http://www.macedonianhistory.ca/

[indigen]

Some interesting old articles from the time of the bombing of Serbia:

But I agree with you, when the US has decided on something lobbying by certain groups usually resorts to nothing. But I still wouldn’t sneeze at the “greek” or shiptar lobby, especially in the Balkan arena.

I take your point and you did a good job in digging up old reminders.

Cheers

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well then our definition of the Macedonian cause differs somewhat. If you see nothing wrong with what Meto said, then you are not lookiing at the matter objectively, and you are, for all intents and purposes, an apologist for him and his hazy policies and statements.

Henceforth, please refer to Macedonia as Democratic when in the context of international organisations, as Upper in the context of bilateral dealings, and as the Republic for all other uses - You have just admitted that you see no compromise in this, remember that.

And if those 3 variants aren't enough for you, create another one that can be used in the US, just in case the American arse requires a few more pecks.

TajnataKniga, kai se zagina?

Please respond to the above as I have responded to you. You said you see no compromise in the ZMR interview, please justify your statement by referring to exactly which part in the interview refutes my assertions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And I also want to state the following: If Meto had acknowledged these past errors, he would have won over many more people to his side, because he refuses to acknowledge them, he will forever lose people like me, who, until relatively recently, took no sides in some of the issues brought up here recently.

Objectivity, honesty, transparency, integrity, consistency - all of these should be a given for any Macedonian organisation. Sadly they aren't. That's a shame.

[TajnataKniga]

thanks for reminding me solider. just catching up on forum chats.

where does meto say upper in 'bilateral dealings'? im not an apologist for anyone. whats so bad with democratic? isnt macedonia democratic? i dont see the big deal. are you yugoslavian? im not. or a former yugoslavian.

what will australia call macedonia?

in the interview, he says macedonia 'entered the un illegally' he also says 'a geographic modifer' is not acceptable. he says 'republic of macedonia' was the chosen name by the people and that should be the name for the un and others. and then goes into saying democratic might be acceptable just for un use if all end be all. my only issue with the interview might be the interpretation of the end of the interview where he says the bilateral use acceptable to both parties. but he does say acceptable to both parties so that means macedonia needs to agree too not just grease. so in the end, the name issue is not getting solved so whats the big deal?

now this is a nice interview - YouTube - ZMR Ivancho Talevski za Imeto

[Soldier of Macedon]

where does meto say upper in 'bilateral dealings'?

I put 'upper' as an example because he does not specify what bilateral name should be used, only that one should be agreed upon with Greece.

whats so bad with democratic? isnt macedonia democratic?

Is that your reasoning? Replace one unnecessary prefix with another unnecessary prefix? Does Macedonia need a 'democratic' prefix to assert itself as a democratic nation? Does Macedonia need to adhere to Greece's racism? What's so bad with simply (Republic of) Macedonia?

what will australia call macedonia?

?? That's great, now I feel as if I am conversing with a 5 year old. Australia will call it what the UN calls it, if it was up to people like you every country would call us whatever they feel like on the day.

so in the end, the name issue is not getting solved so whats the big deal?

The big deal is that he (1) accepts a name other than ROM for the UN, (2) accepts a name other than ROM for bilateral use and (3) accepts ROM for constitutional use and for whoever wishes to call us by our actual name.

So, if the Macedonian government were to be holding meetings at the one venue on the same day, where they would first be speaking with the UN, then with Greece, and then with a friendlier state, they would need 3 name plates representing themselves.

Sounds like an opportunity for employement. Are you going to volunteer for this task? Do you have 'democratic' stickers in your pocket?

[TajnataKniga]

yep and bumper stickets, and hats and buttons. should i mail them to you so you can be my wingman?

your posts are becoming redundent and ridiculous. do you know what you are saying anymore? an illusion in my opinion.

blame the mk government for their willingness to negotiate the name of our 'homeland'

[Soldier of Macedon]

blame the mk government for their willingness to negotiate the name of our 'homeland'

And blame the spineless morons in our Diaspora for accepting it. Agree?

Keep your stickers, I don't require them, I don't need a prefix to remind myself that I am a democratically-minded Macedonian.

[TajnataKniga]

i dont think anyone is a moron. i think in this day and age, intellectual people can agree to disagree.

i'll mail you some just as a momento.

i want a suffix, can i have that? your getting worked up over nothing. you and i are on the same page but you cant see it because of your blindness.