Lost Solun: A History in Pictures

[Amphipolis]

Is it not contradictory to post a video that clearly states “They were identifying themselves according to their Religion” then post a statement with figures representing ethnic minorities?
How can I take these figures into consideration if people at the time were identifying themselves according to their Religion?
These figures are misleading and cannot be accurate.

The importance of the video lies on the first color pictures of Thessaloniki, not the narration. I told you my opinion of it, but I don’t really disagree with them.

The 1910s were not 1850s, so a Christian would officially and legally count in the Bulgarian or Romanian Church etc. It is certain that someone who joined Bulgarian Exarchate is a Bulgarian or a pro-Bulgarian or (from your point of view) an ethnic-Macedonian. He couldn’t be a Greek. On the other hand you can still find Slavophones and some Vlachs among the Greeks of the Patriarchate (the ones you often call Grecomaniacs). All the above have to be considered in the censuses and the political alliance of people.

Amphipolis
Furthermore my point is that not all Turks/Muslims/Albanians left Solun, there are those who remained and still remain.....despite your governments decades of attempts at social genocide, and you & your forefathers as a citizens of this mixed bred mongrel country called Greece have sat back and let it happen and now take great pleasure in your handywork by continuing your governments social genocide policies! Your time is coming for accountability, just like that of your government!

That is correct. We know it for sure that some Christians converted to Islam and stayed back. Similarly, some Muslims probably converted and stayed in Macedonia. Yet, it’s interesting that the numbers in both cases are very small, as statistics can show. It’s not that people were very religious. It’s because most people were tied with their (religious) community and the whole community or family left. A whole village would leave together, travel and settle and start a new similar village together.

Furthermore, Thessaloniki was (in comparison) a smaller city. It now has multiplied by 5 or 6. It lost Jews and Muslims which were about 70% of its’ original (prior 1912) population. Thus, now it’s difficult to trace old Thessalonians who were here before 1912. They would be less than 5-10% of the current population.

Why alter the name if it was greek.Also why deport the population and take in greek turks simply to alter the demographics.Why change the name to greek thesdaloniki if it was called solun.solun the place in the sun.
Yes the greeks tried to give the place a greek slant.THere is the macedonian version.

Solun is an exonym. I have often asked WHEN it is first traced. That would be really interesting. It seems none of you can even find the answer.

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[George S.]

What is more to say for someone who has stolen macedonian lands and changed the toponyms to greek ones.Who forbade the speaking of their macedonian language.All under the guise that the macedonians were greek.They created the assimilation policies to destroy anything macedonian.Solun is by no means the exception to their assimlation to become thessanoliki so that they can say its all greek.We all know it wasnt greek.WE know prior to the balkan wars greek existence in the aegean was only 10 percent of the population.WE know what the greeks did to change that with the change in toponyms and expulsion of the macedonian population.
Amphipolis you are totally wrong.Solun was the original macedonian name not thessaloniki.Your brand of history simply ignores the existence of the macedonian people.
If it was all greek why deny the macedonians who were called endopi the original settlers.Allso why the need to change the name from solun to thessaloniki??
Its plainfully simple To hide the fact that genocide on a macedonian people was committed and their lands were confiscated simply dor the greater glory of the greeks.Would you call that glory in stealing?

[Amphipolis]

Allso why the need to change the name from solun to thessaloniki??

(After some searching).

While searching for the first appearance of Solun, I thought that since Thessalonike appears in the Bible (Acts of the Apostles and at least two Epistles to Thessalonians), I should look at the first translations of the Bible to Old Church Slavonic (around 860 AD). After failing to find them… it seems that these translations are lost. Is that so? If yes, then what has survived from Old Church Slavonic? (just curious). This is your ancient language. Is anyone interested? Do you study it at school?

Moving forward, it seems that the earliest Slavonic versions of the Bible are from around 1350 AD in a language that is (arguably) considered (Middle?) Bulgarian. Does Solun appear there? Am I missing something? Also, Western Slavic versions (particularly Slovenian ones) seem to be earlier.

Lastly, I have a fuzzy memory that Thessalonike appears in an early Slavonic (?) text with a different name, not Solun or Thessalonike but something like… Selanina (I don’t remember it). Does that ring a bell to anyone?

[George S.]

The alternative name was solun.The macedonians preffered that to thessaloniki.
"""After the fall of the kingdom of Macedon in 168 BC, Thessalonica became a free city of the Roman Republic under Mark Antony in 41 BC.[21][23] It grew to be an important trade-hub located on the Via Egnatia,[24] the road connecting Dyrrhachium with Byzantium,[25] which facilitated trade between Thessaloniki and great centers of commerce such as Rome and Byzantium.[26] Thessaloniki also lay at the southern end of the main north-south route through the Balkans along the valleys of the Morava and Axios river valleys, thereby linking the Balkans with the rest of Greece.[27] The city later became the capital of one of the four Roman districts of Macedonia.[24] Later it became the capital of all the Greek provinces of the Roman Empire because of the city's importance in the Balkan peninsula."""
THere is a distinction in roman times and prior tp that it wasnt greek.Macedonians would have retained greek if they were greek but they weren't.The greeks sometimes wrote their version of history 100's of years later.
Yes you are missing something its either greek or it isnt .Are we just assuming that greek is macedonian.???

[George S.]

Ha what a joke you are quoting from a greek written bible their version.of events.You say its all greek why would the apostle visit two seperate countries macedonia and greece.Macedonia accepted the christian message the greeks it says didnt as they beleived their myths.Thats all there is to it you called everything os and you called thessaloniki because it was your version.

[Redsun]

Amphipolis "The importance of the video lies on the first color pictures of Thessaloniki, not the narration. I told you my opinion of it, but I don’t really disagree with them".


These pictures seem incompatible,

Statement from video “There’s substantial contingents of Greek soldiers and Bulgarian soldiers roaming the city and when you look down over the city from the fort at the top down to the bay…”

5.50 – 5.59 Two pictures depict the city landscape, the shape and architecture of the buildings. Some pictures throughout the film depict buildings that don’t appear to have any similarities to the buildings captured in the overall landscape pictures taken from the fort. How can it be certain that these are pictures of Salon.

Amphipolis - The 1910s were not 1850s, so a Christian would officially and legally count in the Bulgarian or Romanian Church etc. It is certain that someone who joined Bulgarian Exarchate is a Bulgarian or a pro-Bulgarian or (from your point of view) an ethnic-Macedonian. He couldn’t be a Greek. On the other hand you can still find Slavophones and some Vlachs among the Greeks of the Patriarchate (the ones you often call Grecomaniacs). All the above have to be considered in the censuses and the political alliance of people.


The population of Greece is heterogeneous.

In the time period we discuss. Why couldn’t an “ethnic Macedonian” or “ethnic anything” enter a heterogeneous Church that was open to all racial backgrounds?

How can you be so certain?

Greece adopted a heterogeneous population from the Ottoman empire.

The Ottomans identified nationality with religion. The Greek government adopted the Ottoman perspective on "nationality."

Statement from video “The Empire was not interested in Ethnicity, it ruled by allowing different religious communities a high degree of autonomy and self government.”

[George S.]

Amphipolis you are just claiming that solun was allways yours you simply change the name back that is bullshit.

[Mad Mak]

Lastly, I have a fuzzy memory that Thessalonike appears in an early Slavonic (?) text with a different name, not Solun or Thessalonike but something like… Selanina (I don’t remember it). Does that ring a bell to anyone?

You probably read it in this thread: Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources , in one of SoM's posts, here's a direct link to the post.

Ceлyнeнинa=Selunenina

The early Slavonic text in question is "Life of Methodius" (Vita Methodii) written by Saint Clement of Ohrid.

[makedonche]

The importance of the video lies on the first color pictures of Thessaloniki, not the narration. I told you my opinion of it, but I don’t really disagree with them.

The 1910s were not 1850s, so a Christian would officially and legally count in the Bulgarian or Romanian Church etc. It is certain that someone who joined Bulgarian Exarchate is a Bulgarian or a pro-Bulgarian or (from your point of view) an ethnic-Macedonian. He couldn’t be a Greek. On the other hand you can still find Slavophones and some Vlachs among the Greeks of the Patriarchate (the ones you often call Grecomaniacs). All the above have to be considered in the censuses and the political alliance of people.



That is correct. We know it for sure that some Christians converted to Islam and stayed back. Similarly, some Muslims probably converted and stayed in Macedonia. Yet, it’s interesting that the numbers in both cases are very small, as statistics can show. It’s not that people were very religious. It’s because most people were tied with their (religious) community and the whole community or family left. A whole village would leave together, travel and settle and start a new similar village together.

Furthermore, Thessaloniki was (in comparison) a smaller city. It now has multiplied by 5 or 6. It lost Jews and Muslims which were about 70% of its’ original (prior 1912) population. Thus, now it’s difficult to trace old Thessalonians who were here before 1912. They would be less than 5-10% of the current population.



Solun is an exonym. I have often asked WHEN it is first traced. That would be really interesting. It seems none of you can even find the answer.

====

Amphipolis
As usual, give you enough rope and you hang yourself! Not too dissimilar to your country....give them enough money and they'll squander it , then come looking for more.......hence the new owners of your country (and your arse's for that matter).

[George S.]

First, never argue with a Greek... You will never win an argument with a Greek because his/her “objective” is to support and protect the modern Greek political agenda... Macedonia is Greek at any cost...

Second, the modern Greeks have absolutely nothing to do with their invented past. Saying “it is Greek” does not mean it belongs to the modern Greeks. The concept of “Greece” and “Greek” is a modern invention, it never existed before. Calling your self “Alexander” does not make you “Alexander” the Great, just because you happen to exist in Macedonia.

The word “Solun” is an “evolved” word. It comes from the word “Thesaloniki”, a word that was coined by Philip II, a Macedonian King who named his daughter after a victory he won in Thessaly. Later, King Kasander, another Macedonian King, founded, built and named Solun “Thesaloniki”, after his wife, and yes, Philip II’s daughter. But, after many years and many occupants we have: Thesaloniki –> Thesalonika –> Salonika –> Solun

Only the modern Greeks call Solun “Thesaloniki”, everyone else calls it either Salonika or Solun.

Solun is a Macedonian city, founded and cared for by Macedonians. We are Macedonians and it is our city. The modern Greeks are its occupiers just like the Romans, the Byzantines and the Ottomans were... One day they too will be gone...

IT IS A MACEDONIAN CITY with an evolved name which today we like to call SOLUN.

[Amphipolis]

These pictures seem incompatible,

Statement from video “There’s substantial contingents of Greek soldiers and Bulgarian soldiers roaming the city and when you look down over the city from the fort at the top down to the bay…”

5.50 – 5.59 Two pictures depict the city landscape, the shape and architecture of the buildings. Some pictures throughout the film depict buildings that don’t appear to have any similarities to the buildings captured in the overall landscape pictures taken from the fort. How can it be certain that these are pictures of Salon.

I’m Thessalonian and I can assure you this is Thessaloniki (in 5:50) as seen from Upper Town (Ano Poli). This is the modern view, from the closest location I could find online.



At the time of the video Thessaloniki was in a transient phase, controlled by the Balkan League, so there were Greek and Bulgarian soldiers, probably even Turkish policemen for a while.

The population of Greece is heterogeneous.

In the time period we discuss. Why couldn’t an “ethnic Macedonian” or “ethnic anything” enter a heterogeneous Church that was open to all racial backgrounds?

How can you be so certain?

Greece adopted a heterogeneous population from the Ottoman empire.

The Ottomans identified nationality with religion. The Greek government adopted the Ottoman perspective on "nationality."

Statement from video “The Empire was not interested in Ethnicity, it ruled by allowing different religious communities a high degree of autonomy and self government.”

During Ottoman Empire, religion was not just a matter of identity or political alliance. Being a Christian meant that you paid your taxes to your Church, Church was responsible for your Education, Health and probably some issues of Justice. Also, Muslims, Christians and Jews were somehow A, B and C class subjects (We can’t use the word citizens) and had different legal rights and obligations.

After the 1880s the Christian Orthodox Church in Ottoman Empire broke into three ethnic Churches.



===

[George S.]

If solun was greek why go in on the pretext to liberate it for themselves.Solun was a macedonian city with a macedonian name.

[Amphipolis]

Why alter the name if it was greek.Also why deport the population and take in greek turks simply to alter the demographics.Why change the name to greek thesdaloniki if it was called solun.solun the place in the sun.
Yes the greeks tried to give the place a greek slant.THere is the macedonian version.

So in post#58 you think Solun is the original name of the city and the Greeks changed it to Thessaloniki. (Solun the place in the sun, give me a break)

Amphipolis you are totally wrong.Solun was the original macedonian name not thessaloniki.Your brand of history simply ignores the existence of the macedonian people.
If it was all greek why deny the macedonians who were called endopi the original settlers.Allso why the need to change the name from solun to thessaloniki??

In post #62 you insist Solun was the original name that was altered. Also, the city was stolen by Greeks.

The alternative name was solun.The macedonians preffered that to thessaloniki.
"""After the fall of the kingdom of Macedon in 168 BC, Thessalonica became a free city of the Roman Republic under Mark Antony in 41 BC.[21][23] It grew to be an important trade-hub located on the Via Egnatia,[24] the road connecting Dyrrhachium with Byzantium,[25] which facilitated trade between Thessaloniki and great centers of commerce such as Rome and Byzantium.[26] Thessaloniki also lay at the southern end of the main north-south route through the Balkans along the valleys of the Morava and Axios river valleys, thereby linking the Balkans with the rest of Greece.[27] The city later became the capital of one of the four Roman districts of Macedonia.[24] Later it became the capital of all the Greek provinces of the Roman Empire because of the city's importance in the Balkan peninsula."""
THere is a distinction in roman times and prior tp that it wasnt greek.Macedonians would have retained greek if they were greek but they weren't.The greeks sometimes wrote their version of history 100's of years later.
Yes you are missing something its either greek or it isnt .Are we just assuming that greek is macedonian.???

In post#64, thanks to Wikipedia you discover the city’s history and who the sister of Alexander was. Now, Thessaloniki becomes a Macedonian name. Or is it a Greek one? You’re still undecided at that point.

You can use google maps to find where Thessaloniki is.

Ha what a joke you are quoting from a greek written bible their version.of events.You say its all greek why would the apostle visit two seperate countries macedonia and greece.Macedonia accepted the christian message the greeks it says didnt as they beleived their myths.Thats all there is to it you called everything os and you called thessaloniki because it was your version.

At this point you’re wondering if New Testament was written in Greek or there’s a Greek version of it. Well, the original (Epistle to Thessalonians) calls them Macedonia and Achaea (not Macedonia and Greece). They’re not two separate countries, but they are indeed two Roman Provinces.

Amphipolis you are just claiming that solun was allways yours you simply change the name back that is bullshit.

We’re not sure what that says.

You probably read it in this thread: Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources , in one of SoM's posts, here's a direct link to the post.

Ceлyнeнинa=Selunenina

The early Slavonic text in question is "Life of Methodius" (Vita Methodii) written by Saint Clement of Ohrid.

***

That’s very interesting, if not important and widely unknown. We can pass it to Wikipedia, BUT:

Are we sure it is correct? A google search provides only a couple of results.
Also, does Solun also appear in Slavonic texts of the time? If not, can we find its’ earliest appearance?

Calling your self “Alexander” does not make you “Alexander” the Great, just because you happen to exist in Macedonia.

Very well said.

The word “Solun” is an “evolved” word. It comes from the word “Thesaloniki”, a word that was coined by Philip II, a Macedonian King who named his daughter after a victory he won in Thessaly. Later, King Kasander, another Macedonian King, founded, built and named Solun “Thesaloniki”, after his wife, and yes, Philip II’s daughter. But, after many years and many occupants we have: Thesaloniki –> Thesalonika –> Salonika –> Solun

At last, at post#70 Thessaloniki is recognized as the original name.

Only the modern Greeks call Solun “Thesaloniki”, everyone else calls it either Salonika or Solun.

Are you sure? Thessaloniki appears as such in the entire ancient, late ancient, early-middle and late medieval literature and of course the recent centuries. Poems, novels, historical and various texts from all these periods mention it and dozens of persons are known with the nickname “o Thessaloniceus” (the Thessalonian) from all the centuries in between. We all know about Thessaloniki, your job should be to tell us something about Solun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damon_of_Thessalonica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigonus_of_Thessalonica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Thessalonica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipater_of_Thessalonica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippus_of_Thessalonica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_of_Thessaloniki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonius_of_Thessalonica

Solun (Serbian, Bulgarian), Selanik (Turkish), Salonicco (Italian) etc are all exonyms. Distortions of the original name by foreigners who could not pronounce or understand the name.

Solun is a Macedonian city, founded and cared for by Macedonians. We are Macedonians and it is our city.

Exactly, now that you want to call yourselves Macedonian, everything that is REALLY Macedonian should belong to you, shouldn’t it?

IT IS A MACEDONIAN CITY with an evolved name which today we like to call SOLUN.

Gee, no problem with that, as it strengthens the Greek position.


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[George S.]

Amph Ipolis you m Issed my point that thessalonika salonica.solun is a macedonian c ity not greek.
Where dies it say it was a greek city.Dont forget the gteeks had a way of helenising names of things.

[Stojacanec]

At this point you’re wondering if New Testament was written in Greek or there’s a Greek version of it. Well, the original (Epistle to Thessalonians) calls them Macedonia and Achaea (not Macedonia and Greece). They’re not two separate countries, but they are indeed two Roman Provinces.


====

Amphipois, judging by the form you greeks show I am surprised you don't claim St Paul the Apostle a Greek.

Also Solun, Salonica, Thessalonika are all versions of the same thing. The name of a place changing over time.

Your modern greek state has a lot to do with the changes made in the last 100 to 200 years rather than a connection to the forbearers.

Also the new testament goes against the modern day rhetoric of greece.

Eg.

.....Returning to Antioch, Saint Paul in the company of Silas undertook his second missionary journey. At first he visited the churches that he had founded earlier in Asia Minor, and then crossed over to Macedonia, where he founded congregations in Philippi, Thessalonica, and Berea. In Lystra, Saint Paul gained his favourite pupil Timothy, and from Troas he continued the journey with the recently joined Apostle Luke. From Macedonia saint Paul crossed over into Greece, where he preached in Athens and Corinth, remaining in the latter city for one and a half years. His 2 Epistles to the Thessalonians was sent from here. The second journey lasted from 51 to 54 AD. In 55 AD Saint Paul left for Jerusalem, visiting Ephesus and Caeseria on the way and from Jerusalem, went to Antioch (Acts 17 and 18.)......

Provinces or not the New Testament shows how Macedonia was a region separate from Greece.