Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Serdarot]

Why are all sources on internet stating Zurna as Persian then?

Samovar is stated as Russian.

couse it can be anything else, but NOT Macedonian.

"Macedonian" should not exist...

but yet, we do exist

why is the world concidering "tzatziki" as a greek traditional product?
why is the world concidering "baklava" as a greek traditional product?
why is the world concidering "giros" as a greek traditional product?

why is the world concidering "pizza" as a traditional italian product?

btw, under "world" you mean the "western world", right?

couse neither i, nor you, have any idea, what and how some chinese farmers knows and thinks...

the "western world" is less than 1/7 of the world population... and its history and "tradition" are myths made short time ago

[Onur]

Ohh c`mon guys, it`s really pointless to argue about what belongs to whom since we all use those for 100s of years. I consider them like these belongs to all of us anymore.

But i don't think that samovar is Russian tough and neither of those belongs to the Greeks of Morea since we clearly know that they learned all of these after population exchange. So, these maybe a part of the culture of Anatolian immigrants but not the rest of Greece. They learned these about 80 years ago, so they don't have a right to adopt our centuries old culture only by themselves.

[Ottoman]

Russian and present day Macedonian are both Slavic languages so it can be possible that they share some words.

Samovar is called Semaver in Turkish.

Zurna is definitely Persian, I know that the ancient Macedonians went far east so they could have picked up the Zurna in Persia but its Persian for sure, no doubt about that.

[Ottoman]

If you want to mention Macedonian elements in Turkish culture you can mention: Pita, Tarator and Popara.
There are more things of course but I cannot come up with it now.

[Akzion]

Serdarot, Risto Stefov
What is this “Koine” language? What does Koine mean? Is it some foreign language the Koine people speak? Who are they?
While speaking of this mysterious language, let’s celebrate it with, probably, it’s most famous passage from 1st Century AD. Would do good in a hate thread like this.

_________________________________
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον. καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω προφητείαν καὶ εἰδῶ τὰ μυστήρια πάντα καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γνῶσιν, καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω πᾶσαν τὴν πίστιν, ὥστε ὄρη μεθιστάνειν, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐδέν εἰμι. καὶ ἐὰν ψωμίσω πάντα τὰ ὑπάρχοντά μου, καὶ ἐὰν παραδῶ τὸ σῶμά μου ἵνα καυθήσομαι, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐδὲν ὠφελοῦμαι.
Ἡ ἀγάπη μακροθυμεῖ, χρηστεύεται, ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ ζηλοῖ, ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ περπερεύεται, οὐ φυσιοῦται, οὐκ ἀσχημονεῖ, οὐ ζητεῖ τὰ ἐαυτῆς, οὐ παροξύνεται, οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν, οὐ χαίρει τῇ ἀδικίᾳ, συγχαίρει δὲ τῇ ἀληθείᾳ· πάντα στέγει, πάντα ἐλπίζει, πάντα ὑπομένει.
Ἡ άγάπη οὐδέποτε ἐκπίπτει· εἴτε δὲ προφητεῖαι, καταργηθήσονται· εἴτε γλῶσσαι, παύσονται· εἴτε γνῶσις καταργηθήσεται. ἐκ μέρους δὲ γινώσκομεν καὶ ἐκ μέρους προφητεύομεν· ὅταν δὲ ἔλθη τὸ τέλειον, τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται. ὅτε ἤμην νήπιος, ὡς νήπιος ἐλάλουν, ὡς νήπιος ἐφρόνουν, ὡς νήπιος ἐλογιζόμουν· ὅτε δὲ γέγονα ἀνήρ, κατήργηκα τὰ τοῦ νηπίου. βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον· ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ έπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.
νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ άγάπη.
_________________________________________

[julie]

Serdarot, Risto Stefov
What is this “Koine” language? What does Koine mean? Is it some foreign language the Koine people speak? Who are they?
While speaking of this mysterious language, let’s celebrate it with, probably, it’s most famous passage from 1st Century AD. Would do good in a hate thread like this.

_________________________________
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον. καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω προφητείαν καὶ εἰδῶ τὰ μυστήρια πάντα καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γνῶσιν, καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω πᾶσαν τὴν πίστιν, ὥστε ὄρη μεθιστάνειν, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐδέν εἰμι. καὶ ἐὰν ψωμίσω πάντα τὰ ὑπάρχοντά μου, καὶ ἐὰν παραδῶ τὸ σῶμά μου ἵνα καυθήσομαι, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐδὲν ὠφελοῦμαι.
Ἡ ἀγάπη μακροθυμεῖ, χρηστεύεται, ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ ζηλοῖ, ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ περπερεύεται, οὐ φυσιοῦται, οὐκ ἀσχημονεῖ, οὐ ζητεῖ τὰ ἐαυτῆς, οὐ παροξύνεται, οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν, οὐ χαίρει τῇ ἀδικίᾳ, συγχαίρει δὲ τῇ ἀληθείᾳ· πάντα στέγει, πάντα ἐλπίζει, πάντα ὑπομένει.
Ἡ άγάπη οὐδέποτε ἐκπίπτει· εἴτε δὲ προφητεῖαι, καταργηθήσονται· εἴτε γλῶσσαι, παύσονται· εἴτε γνῶσις καταργηθήσεται. ἐκ μέρους δὲ γινώσκομεν καὶ ἐκ μέρους προφητεύομεν· ὅταν δὲ ἔλθη τὸ τέλειον, τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται. ὅτε ἤμην νήπιος, ὡς νήπιος ἐλάλουν, ὡς νήπιος ἐφρόνουν, ὡς νήπιος ἐλογιζόμουν· ὅτε δὲ γέγονα ἀνήρ, κατήργηκα τὰ τοῦ νηπίου. βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον· ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ έπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.
νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ άγάπη.
_________________________________________

I dont read, nor understand this passage, please translate, this is a Macedonian forum

[Serdarot]

Serdarot, Risto Stefov
What is this “Koine” language? What does Koine mean? Is it some foreign language the Koine people speak?

well, i used the wrong term, when i wrote about "none of your ancestors had Koine as a Mother Language", i ment "Romeika" ...

But good you talk about Koine...

Feel free to lecture us, lol... (on some other topic, this is about Ataturk... )

Edit:

Sis, it is from the bible, the Korintians...

i´ll try to translate it

[Serdarot]

no need for translation, couse my "ancient greek" is very bad... but i found it on the internet, viva la internet

1 Corinthians 13:1-13

If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.

Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.

It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.
It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth


It covers all things,
it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things,
it endures in all things.

Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.

For we know in part and we prophecy in part.

But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.

When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant,
I reckoned as an infant;

when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant.

For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.

But now remains
faith hope and love,

these three;

but the greatest of these is love.

yeah, let speak about love, my dear (greek?) friend

what is "hate" in this thread?

my post to Agamoy? about how "greeks" LOVED to terrorize Macedonians?

or you hate the shamefull parts of the "greek" history?

[Akzion]

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years.

What is a rundown and what exactly do you want, e.g. comparing to this submitted old post? Why do you insist in the 1832 geographical area, given the majority of the Greeks and their cultural centers (back then) were outside of it?


Here's a list of the most notable Greeks from that period (1400-1800) born in the area of Peloponnisos-Roumeli (the blue part of the map). I have noted aside when someone is Vlach or Arvanite.
This is a subjective view. You may notify me, if I have forgotten someone important or have made any mistakes.

15th Century
Constantine XI Palaiologos (born in Mistra) last Roman Emperor
Helena Palaiologina (born in Mistra) Queen of Cyprus and Armenia
Krokodilos Kladas (probably born in Bardunia of Mani) military leader in the Turkish-Venetian wars and the 1480s insurgency
Theodoros Bua (probably born in Angelokastro) military leader in the 1480s insurgency (Arvanite)
Maximos III (=Manuel Christonymos) Patriarch of Constantinople
Dionysios I (born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Nyfon II (born in Messinia) Patriarch of Constantinople
Laonikos Halkokondylis (born in Athens) historian
Antonios Pyropoulos (born in Koroni), religious author and monk
Georgios Ermonymos (=Charitonymos or Spartiatis) (born in Sparta) religious author, teacher and monk

16th Century
Mercurios Bua (probably born in Angelokastro) military leader of Greek mercenaries, mostly for Venetians (Arvanite)
Thomas Eleavoulkos (born in Koroni), theologian, monk
Manouel Malaxos (born in Nafplio), translator, minor poet and historian
Saint Filothei (=Paraskevi Benizelou) (born in Athens), nun, teacher and philanthropist
Symeon Kavasilas (born in Akarnania) translator and author
Gabriel Seviros (born in Monemvasia) author, bishop of Philadelphia, Lydia
Ioannis Zigomalas (born in Nafplio) author
Theodosios Zigomalas (born in Nafplio) author, historian, philologist
Antonio Millo (born in Milos) chartographer

17th Century
Leonardos Philaras (born in Athens) diplomat and advisor to the French Court
Liberakis Gerakaris (born in Itilos), Pirate, Bay of Mani
Philotheos (Charitopoulos) (born in Agia Efthymia) Bishop of Salona, leader of the 1680s insurgency during the Turkish-Venetian war
Callinicos II (=Poulos or Akarnan, born in Kastania, Agrafa) Patriarch of Constantinople
Dionysios III Vardalis (born in Andros) Patriarch of Constantinople
Eugenious the Aetolian (=Ioannoulis, born in Mega Dendron) Author, Priest, Teacher, Saint
Antonios Vasilakis (=Antonio Vassilacchi, born in Milos) Painter

18th Century
Panayiotis Benakis (born in Kalamata) merchant, financier of the 1770s Orlov insurgency
Pieros (Ilias) Mavromichalis (born in Mani) leader in the 1770s Orlov insurgency
Labros Katsonis (born in Livadia) admiral of Russian Navy in the 1780s Russian-Turkish war
Nicholas Mavrogenes (born in Paros) Prince of Wallachia
Cosmas of Aetolia (=Kostas Dimitrou, born in Mega Dendro) Saint, prophet, monk
Macarius of Corinth (born in Corinth) Bishop of Corinth, author, philosopher of Hesychasm
Nicodemus the Hagiorite (=Nicholas Kallivourtsis, born in Naxos) author, philosopher of Hesychasm
Serapheim I (born in Akarnania) Patriarch of Constantinople
Cyril V (born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Prokopios (Pelekasis) (born in Sitsova/Alagonia) Patriarch of Constantinople
Gregory V (=Georgios Angelopoulos, born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Athanasios Parios (born in Paros) theologian, philosopher, hymnographer
Dionysious of Fourna (=Chalkias, born in Fourna) hagiographer
Panagiotis Doxaras (born in Katifori of Mani) painter
Nikolaos Doxaras (born in Kalamata) painter

[julie]

Thank you Serdarot, Corninthians, and is my favourite passage from the bible bratko

[Daskalot]

What is a rundown and what exactly do you want, e.g. comparing to this submitted old post? Why do you insist in the 1832 geographical area, given the majority of the Greeks and their cultural centers (back then) were outside of it?


Here's a list of the most notable Greeks from that period (1400-1800) born in the area of Peloponnisos-Roumeli (the blue part of the map). I have noted aside when someone is Vlach or Arvanite.
This is a subjective view. You may notify me, if I have forgotten someone important or have made any mistakes.

15th Century
Constantine XI Palaiologos (born in Mistra) last Roman Emperor
Helena Palaiologina (born in Mistra) Queen of Cyprus and Armenia
Krokodilos Kladas (probably born in Bardunia of Mani) military leader in the Turkish-Venetian wars and the 1480s insurgency
Theodoros Bua (probably born in Angelokastro) military leader in the 1480s insurgency (Arvanite)
Maximos III (=Manuel Christonymos) Patriarch of Constantinople
Dionysios I (born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Nyfon II (born in Messinia) Patriarch of Constantinople
Laonikos Halkokondylis (born in Athens) historian
Antonios Pyropoulos (born in Koroni), religious author and monk
Georgios Ermonymos (=Charitonymos or Spartiatis) (born in Sparta) religious author, teacher and monk

16th Century
Mercurios Bua (probably born in Angelokastro) military leader of Greek mercenaries, mostly for Venetians (Arvanite)
Thomas Eleavoulkos (born in Koroni), theologian, monk
Manouel Malaxos (born in Nafplio), translator, minor poet and historian
Saint Filothei (=Paraskevi Benizelou) (born in Athens), nun, teacher and philanthropist
Symeon Kavasilas (born in Akarnania) translator and author
Gabriel Seviros (born in Monemvasia) author, bishop of Philadelphia, Lydia
Ioannis Zigomalas (born in Nafplio) author
Theodosios Zigomalas (born in Nafplio) author, historian, philologist
Antonio Millo (born in Milos) chartographer

17th Century
Leonardos Philaras (born in Athens) diplomat and advisor to the French Court
Liberakis Gerakaris (born in Itilos), Pirate, Bay of Mani
Philotheos (Charitopoulos) (born in Agia Efthymia) Bishop of Salona, leader of the 1680s insurgency during the Turkish-Venetian war
Callinicos II (=Poulos or Akarnan, born in Kastania, Agrafa) Patriarch of Constantinople
Dionysios III Vardalis (born in Andros) Patriarch of Constantinople
Eugenious the Aetolian (=Ioannoulis, born in Mega Dendron) Author, Priest, Teacher, Saint
Antonios Vasilakis (=Antonio Vassilacchi, born in Milos) Painter

18th Century
Panayiotis Benakis (born in Kalamata) merchant, financier of the 1770s Orlov insurgency
Pieros (Ilias) Mavromichalis (born in Mani) leader in the 1770s Orlov insurgency
Labros Katsonis (born in Livadia) admiral of Russian Navy in the 1780s Russian-Turkish war
Nicholas Mavrogenes (born in Paros) Prince of Wallachia
Cosmas of Aetolia (=Kostas Dimitrou, born in Mega Dendro) Saint, prophet, monk
Macarius of Corinth (born in Corinth) Bishop of Corinth, author, philosopher of Hesychasm
Nicodemus the Hagiorite (=Nicholas Kallivourtsis, born in Naxos) author, philosopher of Hesychasm
Serapheim I (born in Akarnania) Patriarch of Constantinople
Cyril V (born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Prokopios (Pelekasis) (born in Sitsova/Alagonia) Patriarch of Constantinople
Gregory V (=Georgios Angelopoulos, born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Athanasios Parios (born in Paros) theologian, philosopher, hymnographer
Dionysious of Fourna (=Chalkias, born in Fourna) hagiographer
Panagiotis Doxaras (born in Katifori of Mani) painter
Nikolaos Doxaras (born in Kalamata) painter

Are you Agamoi?

Why do you feel a need to answer in his/her place?

Again you failed to address my original question posed to Agamoi.

[Serdarot]

Daskale, ask him (Akzion), to be just...

Or i will ask him...

Akzion, what is MY or Daskal´s Ethnicity? :P

[Daskalot]

Daskale, ask him (Akzion), to be just...

Or i will ask him...

Akzion, what is MY or Daskal´s Ethnicity? :P

Good question Serdare, please Akzion tell us what our ethnicity is.

[Akzion]

Daskalot, Serdarot,
I didn’t know it was a personal conversation and you didn’t want me to interfere. I just asked you to clarify the question.
So what’s your ethnicities? Amaze me.

[Daskalot]

Daskalot, Serdarot,
I didn’t know it was a personal conversation and you didn’t want me to interfere. I just asked you to clarify the question.
So what’s your ethnicities? Amaze me.

My question as originally posed to Agamoi was well defined, no clarification needed at all. Here it is for your reading pleasure:

Greece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

Answer the question posed by Serdarot, or find yourself another playground.
Easy isnt it?