Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[George S.]

If the west didn't create the greek state then there would be nothing .Prior to 1831 greece did not exist as a country but as a number of states.The hellene thing was bought up after the creation of the greek state.

[Daskalot]

So we have no takers on this one..... how sad....
I will repost my question just in case someone changes his or hers mind.

I think I've answered your questions.What exactly did I fail to answer from these:

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

I gave you a list of dates and names of people who selfidentified as Hellenes some centuries before 1832.Now if you mean there is a problem cause the list begins from 12th century,well then I suppose every other ethnicity in the world would face a similar problem,trying to prove its existence in medieval time through 10th or 9th century written sources where people declare themselves French,Spanish,Italians,Germans,Bulgarians,Sloveni ans e.t.c.

You have not answered my question. I will post it here again to help you remember it:

Greece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

Please answer the highlighted part to the best of your ability. I am eagerly awaiting your answer.
I will give you an example of how I envision this list of yours;
500 BC - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
105 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
732 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1100 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1831 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
Note that they shall come from the geographical area that formed the Greek state in 1832.
I hope this helps you undertand what I am requesting of you.

[TrueMacedonian]

Greece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

lol you're such a clown thessa. Culture?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4831

lolololololol pull your head out your

[Agamoi Thytai]

So we have no takers on this one..... how sad....
I will repost my question just in case someone changes his or hers mind.
Please answer the highlighted part to the best of your ability. I am eagerly awaiting your answer.
I will give you an example of how I envision this list of yours;
500 BC - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
105 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
732 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1100 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1831 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
Note that they shall come from the geographical area that formed the Greek state in 1832.
I hope this helps you undertand what I am requesting of you.

Sorry for my late response but this question of yours was not brought to my attention so far.Well i shall try my best,although i have the sense i've already answered partly (i mean persons that self-identified as Greeks from 1237 AD till the late 1700s,check again my post nr.219 and all the links i've included there: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...&postcount=219 ) to this.Now since you have mentioned these specific dates i hope you will don't mind if there is a slight difference in my dates.

1)490 BC.After the battle of Marathon,the Athenians erected a monument for their dead with the inscription:

Fighting in the forefront of the Hellenes, the Athenians at Marathon
destroyed the might of the gold-bearing Medes. 490 BC
http://neverfeltbetter.wordpress.com...orld-marathon/ So Ahenians self-identified as Greeks.

2)479 BC Some hours before the battle of Platea,Alexander I stated to the Athenian generals:

"I am myself a Greek by descent,and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery".

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Herodotus/Calliope/eng/292.html

Alexander I self-identified as Greek.

3)Early 3th BC century.The ancient Macedonian comic poet Poseidippus of Cassandreia (316-250 BC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidippus_of_Cassandreia

He criticized the Athenians because they said that only their own dialect was pure Greek and Athens was the center of Greece:

“You speak Attic whenever you open your mouth, and the rest of us Greeks speak Greek.Why make such fuss over syllables and sounds,turning your wit into unpleasantness?”

http://books.google.com/books?id=moflkvb0O2kC&pg=PA29&dq=yOU+SPEAK+aTTIC+WHENEVER+YOU+OPEN+YOUR+MOUTH&hl=el&ei=GnEfTaK0E9Ou8QOt-IGQBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=yOU%20SPEAK%20aTTIC%20WHENEVER%20YOU%20OPEN%20YOUR%20MOUTH&f=false

Poseidippus from Cassandreia would not have writen the above if he didn't self-identify as Greek.

4)Late 3rd-Early 2nd BC century.Philip V of Macedonia,around 200BC,addressing to the Aetolians:

"For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty".

(Note that Philip V was not descending form the Argead dynasty,who claimed argive origin)

http://books.google.com/books?id=3QjkVXkyu_wC&pg=PA417&dq=For+on+many+occasions+when+I+and+the+other+Greeks+sent+embassies+to+you+begging+you+to+remove+from+your+statutes+the+law+empowering+you+to+get+booty+from+booty,&hl=el&ei=sGUfTe_rBNGv8QO4yKHbBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=For%20on%20many%20occasions%20when%20I%20and%20the%20other%20Greeks%20sent%20embassies%20to%20you%20begging%20you%20to%20remove%20from%20your%20statutes%20the%20law%20empowering%20you%20to%20get%20booty%20from%20booty%2C&f=false

5)2nd BC century,during the time of Ptolemy Philometor,(c. 186-145 BC).Ptolemy son of Glaucias,a Macedonian in Alexandria,complains to King Ptolemy that certain Egyptians harassed him because he is Greek:

http://books.google.com/books?id=BYDo9AYmNfEC&pg=PA22&dq=ptolemy+son+of+glaucias&hl=el&ei=qbIgTcq6IISj8QPp7NX9BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ptolemy%20son%20of%20glaucias&f=false

6) 163 AD.The people of Ephesus decided to make sacred the month that was called by them Artemision, because it was dedicated to the Godess Artemis.There was issued a decree about that,which mentions the following :
"But this is the greatest testimony of the reverence for her that there is a month named after her,Artemision in our city,Artemisios among the Macedonians and the rest of the Greek tribes and their cities".

http://books.google.com/books?id=XMLTBp3x3ZAC&pg=PA181&dq=Artemisios+among+the+Macedonians&hl=el&ei=3F8fTduMOcKy8gPWirXXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Artemisios%20among%20the%20Macedonians&f=false

So there were Greek tribes (or Greek nations,because the text in Greek reads "Hellenica ethne") and Macedonians were included among them.In case you claim the term Hellene was used in 2nd AD century with cultural instead of ethnic meaning,note that in the same inscription there is mentioned that Artemis is honoured "by Greeks and barbarians"

7)The ancient Macedonian author Polyaenus (2 AD cent.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyaenus

In the proem of his "Stratagems" he addressed to the Roman coemperors Marcus Aurelius Antoninus and Lucius Verus who were engaged in the Parthian War (163 AD) :

“οὐκ ἀμελῶ συγγράφειν,ὅσα γένοιτ' ἀν ὠφέλιμα ὑμῖν τε αὐτοῖς καί τῇ Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῇ καί τοῖς Ἕλλησιν,ἤν τε πολεμῶμεν ἤν τε τήν εἰρήνην ἄγωμεν”

I don't omit to write,whatever could become helpful to both you personally and Roman rule in general on one hand and the GREEKS on the other,either WE ARE at war or regulating peace treaties

http://www.archive.org/stream/polyaenistratege00polyuoft#page/359/mode/1up

Polyaenus here certainly points out his ethnicity is Greek.Now you need to know some ancient Greek,otherwise you have to trust the reliability of my translation.However,to make you understand my point,the key words are "πολεμῶμεν and "ἄγωμεν",two verbs in first plural person:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polemw\men&la=greek

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29\gwmen&la=greek

Since he mentions in the same sentence both Romans and Greeks alike as those who will be benefited from his work and then he uses the first plural person of the verbs that mean "to be at war" and "to conduct" (negotiations for peace treaty),he clearly identifies with one of the two ethnicities,obviously not with the Romans.

8) 801-812 AD,during the time of the Byzantine emperor Nicephorus I.Emperor Constantine Porphyrogennitus (903-952 AD) wrote that when the Slavs of Peloponnesus rebelled against the Byzantine state, in the reign of Nicephorus I (802-811) nearly two generations after the plague they plundered the houses of their Greek (των Γραικών) neighbors

http://books.google.com/books?id=AiAwAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA304&dq=in+the+reign+of+nicephorus+nearly+two+generations+after+the+plague+they+plundered+the&hl=el&ei=AoYfTc7II4Sa8QOSjvzRBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=in%20the%20reign%20of%20nicephorus%20nearly%20two%20generations%20after%20the%20plague%20they%20plundered%20the&f=false

So this Byzantine emperor aknowledged there were Greeks in 800 AD.

9)Anna Comnena (1083-1153) mentions the existence of Hellenes (with the ethnic meaning of the term) in “the land of the Romans”:

"But one of the Latins hit his helmet with his cross-bow. This cross-bow is a bow of the barbarians quite unknown to the Greeks”.

http://www.humanistictexts.org/comnena.htm#The%20Naval%20Battle%20with%20Count%20of%20Prebentza

ήν δε τοιούτος ο ανήρ οίος,ως εν βραχεί μεν ειπείν,ουδείς κατ’ εκείνον ώφθη εν τη των Ρωμαίων γη,ούτε βάρβαρος ούτε Έλλην
“The appearance of that man was such,briefly speaking,that nobody resembled him in the land of the Romans,neither Greek nor barbarian"

http://www.archive.org/stream/alexias01reifgoog#page/n213/mode/1up

In regards to the period from 1237 till late 1700s i've already showed you evidence in my older post,so i shall continue from this point.

10)1790.Greek delegates meet in St Petersburg the Russian empress Catharine,asking for help to throw of the Ottoman yoke.They also ask from her to appoint her grandson Prince Contantine as “King of the Greeks” (Bσιλεύς Ελλήνων).

http://books.google.com/books?id=3NgvAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA63&dq=niccolo+pangolo&hl=el&ei=WrUfTdD-B4uu8QO81_mVBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=niccolo%20pangolo&f=false

11)1801.The Austrian historian and statisticist Martin von Schwartner (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_von_Schwartner)
wrote a statistic of Hungary:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HS4AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA506&dq=Mr.Schwartner+classes+these+varieties&hl=el&ei=LNggTZPzOomW8QOR64XBBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mr.Schwartner%20classes%20these%20varieties&f=false

Among the various people who dwelt in Hungary at that time he mentioned Greeks from Macedonia:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HS4AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA507&dq=macedonians+or+modern+greeks++who+live+without+distinction&hl=el&ei=tNIgTb-RIY-v8QO3gvGzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=macedonians%20or%20modern%20greeks%20%20who%20live%20without%20distinction&f=false

Here it is in German,"Die Macedonier oder Neugriechen"

http://books.google.gr/books?id=JUVBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA137&dq=Macedonier+oder+Neugriechen&hl=el&ei=4tUgTbjSFIOj8QOj2azXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Macedonier%20oder%20Neugriechen&f=false

12) 1805.Athanasios Christopoulos (1172-1847) from Kastoria.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31447/31447-h/31447-h.htm#ar91

He Wrote in 1805 a “Grammar of the Aeolo-Doric,i.e. the currently spoken language of the Hellenes” ( Γραμματική της αιολοδωρικής,ήτοι της ομιλουμένης των Ελλήνων γλώσσας).There was a common tendency among some Greek scholars of that time to consider colloquial Greek as descendand of ancient Aeolic or Doric,as opposed to the “official” language,Koine and katharevousa that derive from Attic.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wdCvPgAACAAJ&dq=athanasios+christopolos&hl=el&ei=u58fTb_UHMur8QOpydy4BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA

[George S.]

Greece have over the centuries being known ubnder various names but the hellene trerminology was used more widespread only after the west created greece.Can people imagine that prior to 1832 there was no country called greece it was never a country only a bunch of states.
On the other hand macedonia is the only country in europe that has kept it's name pure & simple.The greeks are simply appropriating & missappropriating its's history to say it's theirs.It's all consistent with government dogma.

[Akzion]

Can people imagine that prior to 1832 there was no country called greece it was never a country only a bunch of states.

No shit! Stop revealing our secrets!

On the other hand macedonia is the only country in europe that has kept it's name pure & simple.

Uh what? Was Macedonia a country? Actually, except for Peloponnese (that was named Morea during Middle Ages) and the area of Continental Greece/ Roumeli that never had a specific name in antiquity, all the other areas of modern Greece never changed their name (Macedonia, Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Crete).

[astibo]

2)479 BC Some hours before the battle of Platea,Alexander I stated to the Athenian generals:

"I am myself a Greek by descent,and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery".

http://www.greektexts.com/library/He...e/eng/292.html

Alexander I self-identified as Greek

.

Alexander I is self identifying him self as aGreek BY DESCENT. So if he is a Greek living among Greeks, why should he sey that he is a Greek by DESCENT.
He say that because he is a king of non greek nation but for some kind of prestige he wants to present him self with a greek DESCENT. This argument is against u and your claims…

3)Early 3th BC century.The ancient Macedonian comic poet Poseidippus of Cassandreia (316-250 BC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidippus_of_Cassandreia

He criticized the Athenians because they said that only their own dialect was pure Greek and Athens was the center of Greece:

“You speak Attic whenever you open your mouth, and the rest of us Greeks speak Greek.Why make such fuss over syllables and sounds,turning your wit into unpleasantness?”

http://books.google.com/books?id=mof...0MOUTH&f=false

Poseidippus from Cassandreia would not have writen the above if he didn't self-identify as Greek.

The thing here is that i don’t know much about Poseidippus from Cassandreia or his work, or the contecst of the sentence u are presenting here. I only know that he was from Cassandreia and his father was from Athens. Maybe Poseidippus was a greek or a Hellenized Macedonian and considered him self as a Greek, but that don’t make all Macedonians Greeks.
This quote can only refer for the ethnicity of the author Poseidippus and not for the Macedonians!

4)Late 3rd-Early 2nd BC century.Philip V of Macedonia,around 200BC,addressing to the Aetolians:

"For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty".

(Note that Philip V was not descending form the Argead dynasty,who claimed argive origin)
http://books.google.com/books?id=3Qj...oty%2C&f=false

Philip V just continued the politics of the earlier Macedonian kings. Also it is known that the Antigonides where blood related to the Argeades. And u should know also that many other royal families from Iliria, Thrace, Paionia hade similar stories of their ancestery from the gods.
U don’t have an argument to support your claims here.

5)2nd BC century,during the time of Ptolemy Philometor,(c. 186-145 BC).Ptolemy son of Glaucias,a Macedonian in Alexandria, complains to King Ptolemy that certain Egyptians harassed him because he is Greek:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BYD...aucias&f=false

I would like to see the original text here, not a quote from some modern book. I don’t belive that it is translated correct. When u provide more information about the relevant translation of that word “greek” in the text than we can change some opinions about that..

6) 163 AD.The people of Ephesus decided to make sacred the month that was called by them Artemision, because it was dedicated to the Godess Artemis.There was issued a decree about that,which mentions the following :
"But this is the greatest testimony of the reverence for her that there is a month named after her,Artemision in our city,Artemisios among the Macedonians and the rest of the Greek tribes and their cities".

http://books.google.com/books?id=XML...onians&f=false

So there were Greek tribes (or Greek nations,because the text in Greek reads "Hellenica ethne") and Macedonians were included among them.In case you claim the term Hellene was used in 2nd AD century with cultural instead of ethnic meaning,note that in the same inscription there is mentioned that Artemis is honoured "by Greeks and barbarians"

If u read this text more carefoul u will see that it can include Macedonians in greek tribes but also it can not include them. The thing here is, if the Macedonians where one of the greek tribes why than the author writes them separetly.
This quote is far from a strong argument for the greeknes of the Macedonians, it is not an argument at all!

7)The ancient Macedonian author Polyaenus (2 AD cent.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyaenus

In the proem of his "Stratagems" he addressed to the Roman coemperors Marcus Aurelius Antoninus and Lucius Verus who were engaged in the Parthian War (163 AD) :

“οὐκ ἀμελῶ συγγράφειν,ὅσα γένοιτ' ἀν ὠφέλιμα ὑμῖν τε αὐτοῖς καί τῇ Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῇ καί τοῖς Ἕλλησιν,ἤν τε πολεμῶμεν ἤν τε τήν εἰρήνην ἄγωμεν”

I don't omit to write,whatever could become helpful to both you personally and Roman rule in general on one hand and the GREEKS on the other,either WE ARE at war or regulating peace treaties

http://www.archive.org/stream/polyae...e/359/mode/1up

Polyaenus here certainly points out his ethnicity is Greek.Now you need to know some ancient Greek,otherwise you have to trust the reliability of my translation.However,to make you understand my point,the key words are "πολεμῶμεν and "ἄγωμεν",two verbs in first plural person:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...w\men&la=greek

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...gwmen&la=greek

Since he mentions in the same sentence both Romans and Greeks alike as those who will be benefited from his work and then he uses the first plural person of the verbs that mean "to be at war" and "to conduct" (negotiations for peace treaty),he clearly identifies with one of the two ethnicities,obviously not with the Romans.

And how do u know that he considered him self to be greek. As far as I know he was part of the roman empire and he may think of him self as a Roman citizen and subject. Now if u are so shore than provides us with strong proves that he considered him self to be Greek because this quote is not an argument to your benefith

[Agamoi Thytai]

.

Alexander I is self identifying him self as aGreek BY DESCENT. So if he is a Greek living among Greeks, why should he sey that he is a Greek by DESCENT.
He say that because he is a king of non greek nation but for some kind of prestige he wants to present him self with a greek DESCENT. This argument is against u and your claims…

That's a speculation of yours.There is no record of Alexander I claiming his subjects were not-Greeks ανδ besides your counter argument is pure sophism.If you introduce yourself to some unknown saying "i am astibo from Gevgelje,a Macedonian by descend" or "i am astibo from Strumica,of Macedonian descend" e.t.c would he ever interpret this statement as a direct implication that only you are Macedonian while all the other citizens of Gevgelje or Strumica are not?

. The thing here is that i don’t know much about Poseidippus from Cassandreia or his work, or the contecst of the sentence u are presenting here. I only know that he was from Cassandreia and his father was from Athens. Maybe Poseidippus was a greek or a Hellenized Macedonian and considered him self as a Greek, but that don’t make all Macedonians Greeks.

Where did you get that his father was Athenian/non-Macedonian?In that case he would be regarded as ful Athenian citizen,but all the sources label him as Macedonian:

http://books.google.gr/books?id=PqsUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA84&dq=posidippus+comic+macedonian&hl=el&ei=FWMiTZa7GIey8gPE_PnHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=posidippus%20comic%20macedonian&f=false

After all,if he was a half-Athenian as you claim he would not have any problem with the Athenian superiority complex,which he criticized in his work

This quote can only refer for the ethnicity of the author Poseidippus and not for the Macedonians!

Oh,then allow me to play the same tricks:If Alexander I's,Alexander the Great's,Philip V's,Poseidippus',Ptolemy son of Glaukias' selfidentifications as Greeks are not enough because they represent only themselves and not the whole Macedonian people,then i can also claim Demosthenes called barbarian only Philip and not all Macedonians.

Philip V just continued the politics of the earlier Macedonian kings. Also it is known that the Antigonides where blood related to the Argeades.

The Antigonides had no relation whatsoever to the Argeades,who said that?

And u should know also that many other royal families from Iliria, Thrace, Paionia hade similar stories of their ancestery from the gods.
U don’t have an argument to support your claims here.

That's irelevant.My point was that there were other Macedonians besides the members of the Argead dynasty who claimed Greek origin.

I would like to see the original text here, not a quote from some modern book. I don’t belive that it is translated correct. When u provide more information about the relevant translation of that word “greek” in the text than we can change some opinions about that..

There is only one word in ancient Greek,"Hellene",and this is what Ptolemy used: para to Hellena me einai (παρά το Έλληνα με είναι),i.e. "although i am a Hellene":

http://books.google.com/books?id=pyhyAAAAMAAJ&q=para+to+hellena+me+einai&dq=para+to+hellena+me+einai&hl=el&ei=TWoiTYb7FYbb4gbow-iIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg

Do you think that all scholars failed to translate properly Ptolemy's letter?

http://books.google.com/books?id=KNQRh3OsiKMC&pg=PA381&dq=ptolemy+son+of+glaucias&hl=el&ei=uWsiTc70Osz54AaO26iGAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ptolemy%20son%20of%20glaucias&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xebyor4-4KwC&pg=PA563&dq=ptolemy+son+of+glaucias&hl=el&ei=SW0iTZnUH8LB4gaR97SGAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=ptolemy%20son%20of%20glaucias&f=false

If u read this text more carefoul u will see that it can include Macedonians in greek tribes but also it can not include them. The thing here is, if the Macedonians where one of the greek tribes why than the author writes them separetly.
This quote is far from a strong argument for the greeknes of the Macedonians, it is not an argument at all!

The thing here is that you are again resorting to sophisms that not even you can believe!It's plain and simple "Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks".They are mentioned separately from the other Greeks because the month Artemisios was prominent in the Macedonian calendar.For the same reason,Ephesians mention even themselves separately,"Artemision in our city"

And how do u know that he considered him self to be greek. As far as I know he was part of the roman empire and he may think of him self as a Roman citizen and subject. Now if u are so shore than provides us with strong proves that he considered him self to be Greek because this quote is not an argument to your benefith

He speaks of "Roman authority" and "Greeks" that are to be benefited by his writings.How many possibilities are there he considered himself as representative of Roman authority?And if so,why should he mention the Greeks then?

[Bill77]

Agamoi Thytai
There is only one word in ancient Greek,"Hellene",and this is what Ptolemy used: para to Hellena me einai (παρά το Έλληνα με είναι),i.e. "although i am a Hellene":

And what did a Hellene mean back then?
Would it be the same as a modern Souvlaki eating, Panathiniakos supporting, bouzouki playing, Vlach/turkish/Albanian, Greek that we know today?

aide vre ghamisu........And don't tell me this was the Language Alexander or Ptolemy spoke lol

[lavce pelagonski]

@astibo
Alexander 1 was given the title Alexander philhellene if you are greek it translates to greek freind or lover of greeks, he was Macedonian that bull he was pinning was to take away the Persian eye and send it to the states.

[Bill77]

Black Athena crap is rejected by all reputable scholars and genetists.

I dare you to say it to these people (National Pan-Hellenic Council)

http://www.nphchq.org/home.htm

SURPRISE!

[Agamoi Thytai]

I dare you to say it to these people (National Pan-Hellenic Council)

http://www.nphchq.org/home.htm

SURPRISE!

You seem to confuse,as usually,reality with myths.

[Agamoi Thytai]

And what did a Hellene mean back then?
Would it be the same as a modern Souvlaki eating, Panathiniakos supporting, bouzouki playing, Vlach/turkish/Albanian, Greek that we know today?

I see when you have run out of arguments you resort to irelevant giberish

aide vre ghamisu.......

Hey,if you can swear in my language,then you should not feel offended if i answer in the same manner:What would you prefer,"fith na si tsbis i mlar na si ghamis?"Αnyway,I see you suffer of lack of that activity and that's why you often mention it.

[Bill77]

You seem to confuse,as usually,reality with myths.

Please answer, why do these Black people from the (National Pan-Hellenic Council) want anything to do with the Ancient Hellenes?

[astibo]

That's a speculation of yours.There is no record of Alexander I claiming his subjects were not-Greeks ανδ besides your counter argument is pure sophism.If you introduce yourself to some unknown saying "i am astibo from Gevgelje,a Macedonian by descend" or "i am astibo from Strumica,of Macedonian descend" e.t.c would he ever interpret this statement as a direct implication that only you are Macedonian while all the other citizens of Gevgelje or Strumica are not?

If I am from Strumica or Gevgelija I would just say that I am Macedonian from Strumica or Gevgelija, but if I am born lets sey in Australia, from second generation Macedonians or so I would say that I have Macedonian descent. Why would Alexander I not sayed that he is just Greek, but he state that he have Greek descent and he was traying to prove that to the Greeks who did not accepted him as a Greek. That is not a speculation more so because there are many strong arguments wich prove that Macedonians were not Greeks. Here is one example :

Diodoros Sicilus
He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

COMON GLORY TO ALL GREEKS, but there was no glory for the Macedonians in that match...

Where did you get that his father was Athenian/non-Macedonian?In that case he would be regarded as ful Athenian citizen,but all the sources label him as Macedonian:

http://books.google.gr/books?id=PqsU...donian&f=false

After all,if he was a half-Athenian as you claim he would not have any problem with the Athenian superiority complex,which he criticized in his work

I find that about his father in the Wikipedia link u posted about him.

Oh,then allow me to play the same tricks:If Alexander I's,Alexander the Great's,Philip V's,Poseidippus',Ptolemy son of Glaukias' selfidentifications as Greeks are not enough because they represent only themselves and not the whole Macedonian people,then i can also claim Demosthenes called barbarian only Philip and not all Macedonians.

We know what is the story about the Macedonian kings and there is no need to repeat that here, but in no case you can take them as a argument to prove your case here. About Ptolomy son of Glaukas I told u, I need more information and about Poseidippus, he was either with greek origin or hevely helenized, and that can not be taken as a prove for the greeknes of all Macedonians.
But when u mention Demosten, lets see what he sey:

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic

As u can see, he call barbarian Filip and whole Macedonia. So what argument is stronger now?

The Antigonides had no relation whatsoever to the Argeades,who said that?

But they were related, make some research and you will see.

That's irelevant.My point was that there were other Macedonians besides the members of the Argead dynasty who claimed Greek origin.

AS I say, that was a common practice among the royal families back than. And as u put it, they are claiming greek ORIGIN. How much is true about that story of the Greek origin of the Argeads is answered by leading historians.

There is only one word in ancient Greek,"Hellene",and this is what Ptolemy used: para to Hellena me einai (παρά το Έλληνα με είναι),i.e. "although i am a Hellene":

http://books.google.com/books?id=pyh...ed=0CDEQ6AEwAg

Do you think that all scholars failed to translate properly Ptolemy's letter?

http://books.google.com/books?id=KNQ...aucias&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xeb...aucias&f=false

I am not saying that it is not like that In the original text, maybe it is but I want solid proves for that, Why do I want that?
Becouse even the text of the bible is changed, in the old and more original versions of the bible is clearly stated : Alexander and Filip came from the land of Kitim.
But in now days 99% of the bibles instead of Kitim is written Greece. Why is that so I don’t know but I do know now that I want to see original texts.

The thing here is that you are again resorting to sophisms that not even you can believe!It's plain and simple "Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks".They are mentioned separately from the other Greeks because the month Artemisios was prominent in the Macedonian calendar.For the same reason,Ephesians mention even themselves separately,"Artemision in our city"

I say again, in this case Macedonians can be includet in the greek tribes but also they not necceserely have to be includet. The problem here is that if we know that Macedonians are not Greeks, than there is no problem in this quote, also if we know that they were Greeks there is no problem in this quote again. This quote alone dose not tip the balance in this debate on it’s one.
Lets see now something that will tip the balance for sure 

Arian
[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian.

He speaks of "Roman authority" and "Greeks" that are to be benefited by his writings.How many possibilities are there he considered himself as representative of Roman authority?And if so,why should he mention the Greeks then?

If u are so sure about him being a greek, give us more proves. In the mean time I will give u something:

Polybius
(Book XVIII. 5) Philip V from Macedon responds to the Greek and Roman demands:
"But what is most outrageous of all is that they should attempt to put themselves on the same footing as the Romans and demand that the Macedonians should withdraw from the whole of Greece. To use such language is arrogant enough in the first place, but while we may endure this from the Romans, it is quite intolerable coming from the Aetolians. In any case,' he continued, 'what is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and how do you define Greece? Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks! The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Aphilochians cannot be regarded as Greek. So do you allow me to remain in those territories.

Have i nice day