Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

**julie** · 12-02-2010, 04:24 AM

Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.

really??
welcome to the MTO
Macedonian people and Macedonian culture has existed continuously from ancient till modern time. In fact, Macedonian culture influenced the culture of all of its neighbouring people. The Macedonian language has also been existence in its current form for hundreds of years. Almost back to the time of our Macedonian king, Alexander the Great

**sf.** · 12-02-2010, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post

Greece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

A turd by any other name (or two) is still a turd.

SoM, how often do we need to deal with the stench that wafts in from time to time?

**Daskalot** · 12-02-2010, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post

Greece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

**Ottoman** · 12-02-2010, 06:09 AM

Yeah please show us.

**Onur** · 12-02-2010, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post

however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

Nope. Everything about Greeks/Hellenes started after the middle of 18th century with the rising popularity of the education about ancient Greeks and their culture in western Europe and the rich romaika speaking elites in Morea and Istanbul/Izmir got into that idea after they have been educated in France, England.

If anyone b4 the late 18th century would speak about ancient Greeks or would use the term Hellenes, i am sure that he would be branded as heretic pagan and immediately excommunicated and condemned by being the enemy of christ. Yes, that would be the case cuz ancient Greeks and their paganism was a taboo b4 the rise of the popularity of ancient Greek culture after the middle of 18th century. Even that taboo was still present after the creation of modern Greece. You can read the books from 1840s by European christian missionaries and see that they were highly displeased after seeing Acropolis and other ancient Greek monuments. They say that it was totally antichrist.

Also it was not a coincidence that the western European scholars invented the term "Byzantine" in place of eastern Roman empire at the same era. This was just an example for recreation and revival of Greek culture after ~2000 years of their disappearance.

**Agamoi Thytai** · 12-02-2010, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by julie View Post

Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.

really??
welcome to the MTO
Macedonian people and Macedonian culture has existed continuously from ancient till modern time. In fact, Macedonian culture influenced the culture of all of its neighbouring people. The Macedonian language has also been existence in its current form for hundreds of years.

Thanks for the wellcome,Julie!
I don't doubt your language exists for centuries,but I was talking only for Greek language and culture,not Macedonian.I didn't question it,so I don't see the need to state it.I also don't believe modern Macedonian language has any relation to ancient Macedonian,(regardles of whether it was a distinct language or a Greek dialect) except from the fact both are Indoeuropean languages.I wont make any linguistic analysis but I will say only this:Modern Macedonian is a satem language while ancient was centum and that's a substantial difference.Its impossible for a satem language to be the direct descendand of a centum language:

Greeks and Pre-Greeks

http://books.google.com/books?id=H-q2UQZ5XzAC&pg=PA31&dq=macedonian+centum&hl=el&ei=68v3TKHbLISV8QPYg934Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=macedonian%20centum&f=false

By systematically confronting Greek tradition of the Heroic Age with the evidence of both linguistics and archaeology, Margalit Finkelberg proposes a multidisciplinary assessment of the ethnic, linguistic and cultural situation in Greece in the second millennium BC. The main thesis of this book is that the Greeks started their history as a multi-ethnic population group consisting of both Greek-speaking newcomers and the indigenous population of the land and that the body of 'Hellenes' as known to us from the historic period was a deliberate self-creation. The book addresses such issues as the structure of heroic genealogy, the linguistic and cultural identity of the indigenous population of Greece, the patterns of marriage between heterogeneous groups as they emerge in literary and historical sources, the dialect map of Bronze Age Greece, the factors responsible for the collapse of the Mycenaean civilisation and finally, the construction of the myth of the Trojan War.

Originally posted by julie View Post

Almost back to the time of our Macedonian king, Alexander the Great

But Alexander spread Greek language everywhere,not Macedonian.He ordered the Persian youths who were trained along Macedonian soldiers to learn Greek,he ordered the inscription on Cyrus' tomb to be rewritten in Greek.Greek became the lingua franca of Near East only after Alexander's campaigne and thank to Alexander.Before Alexander Aramaic and Persian was the lingua franca in all the territory of the Persian empire.

**Ottoman** · 12-02-2010, 11:52 AM

William Wallace also spoke English, does this make him an Englishman? No he was a Scotsman.

**DirtyCodingHabitz** · 12-02-2010, 12:21 PM

But Alexander spread Greek language everywhere,not Macedonian.He ordered the Persian youths who were trained along Macedonian soldiers to learn Greek,he ordered the inscription on Cyrus' tomb to be rewritten in Greek.Greek became the lingua franca of Near East only after Alexander's campaigne and thank to Alexander.Before Alexander Aramaic and Persian was the lingua franca in all the territory of the Persian empire.

• Big Greek Lie #2
"The Koine Language is Greek"
(Modern Greeks are victims of their own making)

**Agamoi Thytai** · 12-02-2010, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Daskalot View Post

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

Daskale,here is a short list of intellectuals and other distinguished people who called themselves Hellenes or Graikoi long before 1832
See pages 94-97 from that book:

Imperial Ideology and Political Thought in Byzantium, 1204-1330

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vce6EJAcHA4C&pg=PA97

This study is the first to systematically investigate Byzantine imperial ideology, court rhetoric and political thought after the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204 - in the Nicaean state (1204-61) and during the early period of the restored empire of the Palaiologoi. The book explores Byzantine political imagination at a time of crisis when the Empire ceased to be a first-rate power in the Mediterranean. It investigates the correspondence and fissures between official political rhetoric, on the one hand, and the political ideas of lay thinkers and churchmen, on the other. Through the analysis of a wide body of sources, a picture of Byzantine political thought emerges which differs significantly from the traditional one. The period saw refreshing developments in court rhetoric and political thought, some with interesting parallels in the medieval and Renaissance West, which arose in response to the new historical realities.

1)The emperor of the Nicaen kingdom Theodoros Laskaris in 13th century,page 97.
2)His father and predecessor John Vatatzes in 1237,page 96.
3)The philosopher Theodore Metochites,1292 page 96.
4)Patriarch Germanos II,pages 95-96.
5)Emperor Michael Palaeologos,13th century.

Latins and Greeks in the Eastern Mediterranean After 1204

http://books.google.com/books?id=IyHsNpkYkdgC&pg=PA116

First published in 1989. This volume includes twelve of the main papers given at the Joint Meeting of the XXII Spring Symposium of Byzantine Studies and of the Society for the Study of the Crusades and the Latin East held at the University of Nottingham from 26-29 March 1988. The Conference brought together a wide range of scholars and dealt with four main themes: relations between native Greeks and western settlers in the states founded by the Latin conquerors in former Byzantine lands in the wake of the Fourth Crusade; the Byzantine successor states at Nicaea, Epirus, and Thessalonica; the influence of the Italian maritime communes on the eastern Mediterranean in the later Middle Ages and the Renaissance; and the impact on Christian societies there of the Mongols and the Ottoman Turks, as well as the perception of Greeks and Latins by other groups in the eastern Mediterranean.

6)The philosopher George Gemistos or Plethon in 15th century:

The Cambridge History of Medieval Political Thought C.350-c.1450

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEa8Iv5wJ0IC&pg=PA77

This volume offers a comprehensive and authoritative account of the history of a complex and varied body of ideas over a period of more than one thousand years. A work of both synthesis and assessment, The Cambridge History of Medieval Political Thought presents the results of several decades of critical scholarship in the field, and reflects in its breadth of enquiry precisely that diversity of focus that characterized the medieval sense of the "political," preoccupied with universality at some levels, and with almost minute particularity at others. Among the vital questions explored by the distinguished team of contributors are the nature of authority, of justice, of property; the problem of legitimacy, of allegiance, of resistance to the powers that be; the character and functions of law, and the role of custom in maintaining a social structure.

7)Nicholas Cabasilas,14th century theologian,pages 20 and 21 of that book:

the last byzantine renaissance

http://books.google.com/books?id=8jA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA20

8)Athanasios Lepenthrenos,14th century Cypriot scholar,page 21.
9)Demetrios Kydones,14th century Cretan theologian,page 21.
10)John Argyropoulos,15th century scholar,pages 21 and 22.
11)George Gennadius Scholarius,the first Patriarch after the Ottoman conquest,page 22.Even though he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of its connotations with paganism he nevertheless recognized that he was "a Greek by birth".
12)Lukas Spandonis,15th century Thessalonian nobleman:

Internet Archive: Scheduled Maintenance

http://www.archive.org/stream/travelsinnorthe05leakgoog#page/n252/mode/1up/

13)Andronikos Kallistos,15th century Thessalonian scholar:

The Immortal Emperor

http://books.google.com/books?id=lnSmnmL984YC&pg=PA97

Constantine XI Palaiologos was the last Christian Emperor of Constantinople and Byzantium. In 1453, when Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks, he was last seen fighting at the city walls, but the actual circumstances of his death have remained surrounded in myth. In the years that followed it was said that he was not dead but sleeping - the 'immortal emperor' turned to marble, who would one day be awakened by an angel and drive the Turks out of his city and empire. Donald Nicol's book tells the gripping story of Constantine's life and death, and ends with an intriguing account of claims by reputed descendants of his family - some remarkably recent - to be heirs to the Byzantine throne.

14)Georgios Kontaris,17th century scholar from Kozani:

Encyclopedia of Modern Greek Literature

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA442

This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present. Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources.Greece has an old and influential literary tradition. The lion's share of attention has been given to classical Greek literature, yet the nation continues to produce significant imaginative works. This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present.Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources. The encyclopedia also offers a useful chronology of modern Greek literature, a select bibliography of important general works, and a detailed subject index.

Encyclopedia of Modern Greek Literature

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA235

This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present. Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources.Greece has an old and influential literary tradition. The lion's share of attention has been given to classical Greek literature, yet the nation continues to produce significant imaginative works. This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present.Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources. The encyclopedia also offers a useful chronology of modern Greek literature, a select bibliography of important general works, and a detailed subject index.

15)George Zaviras from Siatista,author of the books "Hellenic theater or Nea Hellas consisting the history of all learned Greeks since the fall of the nation" in the last years of 18th century,pages 79 and 80 from that book:

Researches in Greece

http://books.google.com/books?id=QtRDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79

16)Daniil Filippidis and Grigorios Konstantas,authors of 'Modern Geography" in 1791:

Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766-1976

http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q=idolaters&f=false

This is a history of the great language controversy that has occupied and impassioned Greeks - sometimes with fatal results - for over two hundred years. It begins in the late eighteenth century when a group of Greek intellectuals sought to develop a new, Hellenic, national identity alongside the traditional identity supplied by Orthodox Christianity. The ensuing controversy focused on the language, fuelled on the one hand by a desire to develop a form of Greek that expressed the Greeks' relationship to the ancients, and on the other by the different groups' contrasting notions of what the national image so embodied should be. The purists wanted a written language close to the ancient. The vernacularists - later known as demoticists - sought to match written language to spoken, claiming the latter to be the product of the unbroken development of Greek since the time of Homer. Peter Mackridge explores the political, social, and linguistic causes and effects of the controversy in its many manifestations. Drawing on a wide range of evidence from literature, language, history, and anthropology, he traces its effects on spoken and written varieties of Greek and shows its impact on those in use today. He describes the efforts of linguistic elites and the state to achieve language standardization and independence from languages such as Turkish, Albanian, Vlach, and Slavonic. This is a timely book. The sense of national and linguistic identity that has been inculcated into generations of Greeks since the start of the War of Independence in 1821 has, in the last 25 years, received blows from which it may not recover. Immigration from Eastern Europe and elsewhere has introduced new populations whose religions, languages, and cultures are transforming Greece into a country quite different from what it has been and from what it once aspired to be.

17)Dimitrios Katartzis,18th century scholar.Although he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of religious reasons he pointed out that the people who called themselves Romioi have a strong connection to ancient Greeks:

Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766-1976

http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50

This is a history of the great language controversy that has occupied and impassioned Greeks - sometimes with fatal results - for over two hundred years. It begins in the late eighteenth century when a group of Greek intellectuals sought to develop a new, Hellenic, national identity alongside the traditional identity supplied by Orthodox Christianity. The ensuing controversy focused on the language, fuelled on the one hand by a desire to develop a form of Greek that expressed the Greeks' relationship to the ancients, and on the other by the different groups' contrasting notions of what the national image so embodied should be. The purists wanted a written language close to the ancient. The vernacularists - later known as demoticists - sought to match written language to spoken, claiming the latter to be the product of the unbroken development of Greek since the time of Homer. Peter Mackridge explores the political, social, and linguistic causes and effects of the controversy in its many manifestations. Drawing on a wide range of evidence from literature, language, history, and anthropology, he traces its effects on spoken and written varieties of Greek and shows its impact on those in use today. He describes the efforts of linguistic elites and the state to achieve language standardization and independence from languages such as Turkish, Albanian, Vlach, and Slavonic. This is a timely book. The sense of national and linguistic identity that has been inculcated into generations of Greeks since the start of the War of Independence in 1821 has, in the last 25 years, received blows from which it may not recover. Immigration from Eastern Europe and elsewhere has introduced new populations whose religions, languages, and cultures are transforming Greece into a country quite different from what it has been and from what it once aspired to be.

18)Theodosius Zygomalas and Symeon Cabasilas,16th century scholars called Greek the language that was spoken by common people,not romeika:

A Journey Through Albania

http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA557

**Agamoi Thytai** · 12-02-2010, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Ottoman View Post

William Wallace also spoke English, does this make him an Englishman? No he was a Scotsman.

Good remark,Ottoman.Now you should tell this to Onur and your Macedonian friends who say the Turkish-speaking Greeks of Asia Minor are pure Turks.And if you don't mind,why do you care about ancient Macedonians and their language?

**Bratot** · 12-02-2010, 02:58 PM

The Orthodox Turks didn't speak Greek at all, nor the language is the factor N'1 in denoting one's ethnicity.

**Ottoman** · 12-02-2010, 03:27 PM

Modern "Greeks" (orthodox Turks) vs The truth.

Type this in youtube.

**Agamoi Thytai** · 12-02-2010, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by DirtyCodingHabitz View Post

• Big Greek Lie #2
"The Koine Language is Greek"
(Modern Greeks are victims of their own making)

Well if Koine is not Greek then Greek is the same with Chinese!Sorry,but Risto Stefov is not a qualified linguist and I can't imagine any such taking seriously his theory.He "proved" that Koine is not Greek comparing 5-6 words!That's indeed a novelty in linguistics!He also confuses Koine with Attic.What Alexander and before him Philip used in their court was Attic,Koine evolved much later in Hellenistic time with the expansion of the Greek-speaking area through the establishment of the Hellenistic kingdoms:

Greek

http://books.google.com/books?id=f__JVG7TGKsC&pg=PA80

If Koine belongs to all eastern mediterranean nations as he claims,how is it that all other eastern mediterranean people except Greeks can understand not a single word of a Koine text?

**Onur** · 12-02-2010, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Bratot View Post

The Orthodox Turks didn't speak Greek at all, nor the language is the factor N'1 in denoting one's ethnicity.

Besides that, there are several records of central Anatolian Turks, mainly Karamanlides being converted as christians in the Byzantine archives of 13th century. They specifically noted that the Turks who have recently been converted to christianity in central Anatolia in late 13th century. They call them as Tourkopoulos.

Also, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc. Look for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish. I have to remind you that the Karamanlides are allowed to organize their own cultural festivals in Greece only after 1980s. So it`s actually unbelievable that they managed to preserve their true customs under 70+ years assimilation and oppression. The Greek oppression upon them was so strict. I watched some documents about them and older Karamanlides Turks says that in 1930s, when they recently settled to Greece, Greek police was secretly sneaking under their window to listen if they speak Turkish in their homes and punish them if they hear them speak Turkish.

So, we have Byzantine records for the converted Turks to christianity but appereanty there are no records of Greeks being converted as muslims in Byzantine archives as today`s Greeks claims. You know, they say that the Turks in Anatolia are muslimized Greeks!! just like indigen and this Greek guy claimed here;

Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post

Off course,that's normal considering that thousands,if not millions of Greeks were assimilated by Turks,like these here:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=6772

Ah,and first you have to define what is supposed to be the genuine Turkish look you are refering to?Is it this one:

http://www.sport.gr/files/news/2009-06-17/1245254501_turkoglou_250x.jpg

Maybe this?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_0X18t-8ZkNM/S3V09iYoaxI/AAAAAAAACAM/TStwW7ZiKcE/Ozgur13.jpg

Or these?

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/420077/ph03b.jpg

http://im.in.com/media/download/wallpapers/2009/May/turkish_girls_euro_2008_420x315.jpg

**Ottoman** · 12-02-2010, 05:12 PM

I really like this.

Janissaries.

Seeing this makes me wanna become one.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

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