The Miladinov Brothers & Macedonian Literature - 19th Century

[Carlin]

The Miladinov brothers were the exception to this assumption of ours I think. I read somewhere, it might have been Wikipedia, that one of them even went on a pilgrimage to the river Volga in Russia to pay homage to his Bulgarian ancestors. That's why I'm more critical of the Miladinov brothers. There is no escaping the fact they considered themselves "Bulgarians" in the ethnic sense.

Agreed - the Miladinov brothers did in fact consider themselves (and their fellow Macedonians) as ethnic Bulgarians. And they were not the only ones though.

As an another example (and I apologize to change the main Topic of this thread), there is Dimitar Makedonski - Димитар Македонски.

Од Википедија

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8

Dim. Makedonski wrote as follows in 1871:

"И jа понаучете си малце историjата ... и ќе се уверите дека Македонците не се цинцари, ниту друг некоj народ, туку се чисти Бугари како вас; од таму ќе се научите уште дека Македонците не се изгубиле од лицето на земјата како што некои си дозволуваат да докажуваат оти колку што ние знаеме тие не се согрешиле некогаш толку та да зине земјата па да ги голтне."

Additional Citations from the wikipedia page:

- І македонски конгрес започнал со својата работа на 18.03.1895 година и првите три дена се расправало за целата на македонските друштва, притоа на дневен ред имало две точки: Автономија на Македонија или нејзино присоединување кон Бугарија. Димитар Македонски заедно со двајца делегати гласал за присоединување на Македонија кон Бугарија.

- Автор е на 3 учебници, пишувани на македонски народен говор на неговиот роден дијалект со многу црковнословенизми, што ги објавува во печатницата на весникот „Македонија“ во Цариград. Неговите учебници се: Кратка свјаштена историја, за училиштата по Македонија (1867), Буквар за употребление в македонските училишта (1867) и Скратен православен катихизис (превод од грчки, 1868). Првиот учебник е пишуван во вид на прашања и одговори, слично како учебниците на Кузман Шапкарев и другите македонски учебникари. Во него Димитар Македонски тврди дека "Бугарите во Македонија" (како што ги нарекува Македонците) биле покрстени уште од Апостол Павле.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Again, the meaning of that term in the period it was claimed needs to be taken into consideration.

[Karposh]

Во него Димитар Македонски тврди дека "Бугарите во Македонија" (како што ги нарекува Македонците) биле покрстени уште од Апостол Павле.

That quote right there Carlin tells me just how messed up some of people's minds were with respect to their own identity. And you can hardly blame them. The example of Dimitar Makedonski illustrates this point perfectly. On the one hand he calls himself "Makedonski", a seemingly instinctive and natural portrayal of his native patriotism and yet, on the other hand, he is desperately attempting to somehow tie Bulgaria to Macedonia, through the Apostle Paul of all people and his association with the Ancient Macedonians - an exercise in futility.

Why would Makedonski say "The Bulgarians of Macedonia were baptized by the Apostle Paul?" The guy was clearly intelligent enough to know the bible makes no such mention of Bulgarians. The only thing you could possibly put this confused mindset down to is the extremely aggressive Bulgarian propaganda of the time. Almost all of them (Macedonian intellectuals) were being molded into the perfect little Bulgarians by the Bulgarian state through the Bulgarian education system and institutions such as the famous Salonica Bulgarian Boys High School. There would have been an almost envious need by these Macedonian young men to achieve similar freedom for Macedonia as the Bulgarians had just recently achieved. I have no doubt that if you were to take the recently independent Bulgaria with all of her aggressive Bulgarian propaganda out of the equation, these people would have definitely been playing a different tune. After all, I doubt very much Vasil Kanchov was making shit up when he made that observation that the Bulgarians of Macedonia called themselves Macedonians and that the surrounding people knew them as such.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

That quote right there Carlin tells me just how messed up some of people's minds were with respect to their own identity. And you can hardly blame them. The example of Dimitar Makedonski illustrates this point perfectly. On the one hand he calls himself "Makedonski", a seemingly instinctive and natural portrayal of his native patriotism and yet, on the other hand, he is desperately attempting to somehow tie Bulgaria to Macedonia, through the Apostle Paul of all people and his association with the Ancient Macedonians - an exercise in futility.

Why would Makedonski say "The Bulgarians of Macedonia were baptized by the Apostle Paul?" The guy was clearly intelligent enough to know the bible makes no such mention of Bulgarians. The only thing you could possibly put this confused mindset down to is the extremely aggressive Bulgarian propaganda of the time. Almost all of them (Macedonian intellectuals) were being molded into the perfect little Bulgarians by the Bulgarian state through the Bulgarian education system and institutions such as the famous Salonica Bulgarian Boys High School. There would have been an almost envious need by these Macedonian young men to achieve similar freedom for Macedonia as the Bulgarians had just recently achieved. I have no doubt that if you were to take the recently independent Bulgaria with all of her aggressive Bulgarian propaganda out of the equation, these people would have definitely been playing a different tune. After all, I doubt very much Vasil Kanchov was making shit up when he made that observation that the Bulgarians of Macedonia called themselves Macedonians and that the surrounding people knew them as such.

References from this period to Bulgarians of Medieval times would likely be referring to the subjects of the Bulgarian empires.

[Karposh]

Quote:
"The Bulgarians of Macedonia were baptized by the Apostle Paul"

It just occurred to me, this quote by Dimitar Makedonski can also be used to throw some weight to the argument of the non-ethnic definition of the term "Bulgarian." If we presume that Makedonski was smart enough to know that Bulgarians are never mentioned in the bible then this can also imply that he regarded the term "Bulgarian" as describing a Slavic-speaking Orthodox Christian. Let's not forget, many notable Macedonians of the time claimed direct descent from the Ancient Macedonians whom they regarded as their Slavic-speaking ancestors. It is just as likely that Makedonski was referring to Slavic-speaking Christians of Macedonia when speaks of "The Bulgarians of Macedonia" being baptized by the Apostle Paul. Worthy of a comment or two I think.

[Karposh]

References from this period to Bulgarians of Medieval times would likely be referring to the subjects of the Bulgarian empires.

No LoM. Trust me, Makedonski was either completely confused or had no idea what he was talking about. I personally don't think he was an idiot.

For the record, there was no Bulgarian empire in the time of the Apostle Paul.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

No LoM. Trust me, Makedonski was either completely confused or had no idea what he was talking about. I personally don't think he was an idiot.

For the record, there was no Bulgarian empire in the time of the Apostle Paul.

Was referring more to the Miladinovi, I know Makedonsko held Pro-Bulgarian views as he was one of the few people at the Sofia Congress in 1895 that voted in favour of Macedonia to be joined to Bulgaria.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Quote:
"The Bulgarians of Macedonia were baptized by the Apostle Paul"

It just occurred to me, this quote by Dimitar Makedonski can also be used to throw some weight to the argument of the non-ethnic definition of the term "Bulgarian." If we presume that Makedonski was smart enough to know that Bulgarians are never mentioned in the bible then this can also imply that he regarded the term "Bulgarian" as describing a Slavic-speaking Orthodox Christian. Let's not forget, many notable Macedonians of the time claimed direct descent from the Ancient Macedonians whom they regarded as their Slavic-speaking ancestors. It is just as likely that Makedonski was referring to Slavic-speaking Christians of Macedonia when speaks of "The Bulgarians of Macedonia" being baptized by the Apostle Paul. Worthy of a comment or two I think.

Think you're onto something there, it's a point I try to put across as well.

[Karposh]

"И jа понаучете си малце историjата ... и ќе се уверите дека Македонците не се цинцари, ниту друг некоj народ, туку се чисти Бугари како вас; од таму ќе се научите уште дека Македонците не се изгубиле од лицето на земјата како што некои си дозволуваат да докажуваат оти колку што ние знаеме тие не се согрешиле некогаш толку та да зине земјата па да ги голтне."

English Translation:

“So learn a little history...and you will see that the Macedonians are no Vlachs, nor any other nation, but pure Bulgarians like you; from there you will learn that the Macedonians did not disappear off the the face of the Earth like some are allowing themselves to conclude because as far as we know they did not sin so gravely for the Earth to open up and swallow them.”

This quote by Dimitar Makedonski has been taken from a letter to the Editor of the “Makedonija” newspaper. The Editor was the well known Bulgarian nationalist, Petko Slaveykov, who had already made his feelings known regarding the growing "Macedonist" movement, as he called it, and the danger this movement posed for Bulgarian interests in Macedonia.

There is something really odd about Makedonski's assertions in this quote as they seem quite contradictory to me. Carlin went to the trouble of underlining the part where he says that Macedonians are “pure Bulgarians”, to highlight Makedonski's supposed pro-Bulgarian feelings. However, Makedonski's next statement has left me scratching my head. It makes absolutely no sense when put alongside his first statement and I'm really struggling to take it at face value.

Analysing this second part of his statement further, he is clearly invoking the Ancient Macedonians through his advice to Slaveykov to learn some history, where he will see that the Macedonians did not disappear from the face off the earth. The obvious premise of which is that the Ancient Macedonians are alive and well and continue to live on through the Modern Macedonians. He is clearly appealing to Slaveykov that the Macedonian continuum has never been broken.

So, here's the dilemma for me, if Dimitar Makedonski believed that the Macedonian ethnic continuum has never broken throughout history, how then could he possibly equate the Macedonian nation with the Bulgarian one as he does in the first part of his statement? Unless, he understood the term Bulgarian to mean something other than the ethnic descriptor we know it to be today. Is it possible that Dimitar Makedonski had a different meaning in mind when he spoke of “pure Bulgarians like you?”

As an experiment, please read the quote above with the following meaning in mind for the term Bulgarian: A Slavic-speaking Orthodox Christian.
When you read it this way, then Makedonski's other quote regarding “The Bulgarians of Macedonia were baptized by the Apostle Paul” also starts to makes more sense.

Any thoughts?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

English Translation:

“So learn a little history...and you will see that the Macedonians are no Vlachs, nor any other nation, but pure Bulgarians like you; from there you will learn that the Macedonians did not disappear off the the face of the Earth like some are allowing themselves to conclude because as far as we know they did not sin so gravely for the Earth to open up and swallow them.”

This quote by Dimitar Makedonski has been taken from a letter to the Editor of the “Makedonija” newspaper. The Editor was the well known Bulgarian nationalist, Petko Slaveykov, who had already made his feelings known regarding the growing "Macedonist" movement, as he called it, and the danger this movement posed for Bulgarian interests in Macedonia.

There is something really odd about Makedonski's assertions in this quote as they seem quite contradictory to me. Carlin went to the trouble of underlining the part where he says that Macedonians are “pure Bulgarians”, to highlight Makedonski's supposed pro-Bulgarian feelings. However, Makedonski's next statement has left me scratching my head. It makes absolutely no sense when put alongside his first statement and I'm really struggling to take it at face value.

Analysing this second part of his statement further, he is clearly invoking the Ancient Macedonians through his advice to Slaveykov to learn some history, where he will see that the Macedonians did not disappear from the face off the earth. The obvious premise of which is that the Ancient Macedonians are alive and well and continue to live on through the Modern Macedonians. He is clearly appealing to Slaveykov that the Macedonian continuum has never been broken.

So, here's the dilemma for me, if Dimitar Makedonski believed that the Macedonian ethnic continuum has never broken throughout history, how then could he possibly equate the Macedonian nation with the Bulgarian one as he does in the first part of his statement? Unless, he understood the term Bulgarian to mean something other than the ethnic descriptor we know it to be today. Is it possible that Dimitar Makedonski had a different meaning in mind when he spoke of “pure Bulgarians like you?”

As an experiment, please read the quote above with the following meaning in mind for the term Bulgarian: A Slavic-speaking Orthodox Christian.
When you read it this way, then Makedonski's other quote regarding “The Bulgarians of Macedonia were baptized by the Apostle Paul” also starts to makes more sense.

Any thoughts?

Pure Bulgarian in their desire for a seperate Slavophone church defiantly.

[Carlin]

The following comes from a modern Bulgarian historian -> Tchavdar Marinov.

Some examples:

- Dim. Miladinov tried to convince a Greek teacher that not only Philip, Alexander and the ancient Macedonians were Slavs but also Homer, Demosthenes and Strabo.

- Petko Slaveykov referred to Alexander as a Bulgarian ancestor.

- In the early 1840s, Rakovski was active in a Macedonian revolutionary society in Athens and used the pen name Georgi Makedon. During the first half of the nineteenth century, natives from various parts of today's Bulgaria identified as 'Macedonians'.

[Karposh]

During the first half of the nineteenth century, natives from various parts of today's Bulgaria identified as “Macedonians.”...Because the boundaries of the “Macedonian” region were not clear until 1878 at least, natives from what is now considered “western Bulgaria” (Kyustendil, Dupnitsa, Plovdiv, etc. - my note) were called, and called themselves, “Macedonians": for instance, Hristaki Pavlovich (1804-1848) from the town of Dupnitsa.

Note the date: 1804-1848! And here am I thinking that Georgi Pulevski was the only confirmed Macedonian from this period. Looks like he wasn't alone and his brothers from the east shared the same national sentiments. Is there any other nation that has caused more damage to the Macedonian nation than what the Bulgarians have managed to do? I doubt it. One can only wonder how many millions of Macedonians have been eternally lost to Bulgarian propaganda.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Note the date: 1804-1848! And here am I thinking that Georgi Pulevski was the only confirmed Macedonian from this period. Looks like he wasn't alone and his brothers from the east shared the same national sentiments. Is there any other nation that has caused more damage to the Macedonian nation than what the Bulgarians have managed to do? I doubt it. One can only wonder how many millions of Macedonians have been eternally lost to Bulgarian propaganda.

So so many, Sofia and Kustendil were once essentialy Macedonian cities. The Macedonian population of Bulgaria was massive.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Folk song titled Свѣта Неделя и Св. Петка recorded by the Miladinovi from Kostursko:



Заспала свѣta Неделя
На свѣта Петка скуто'и;
Свѣта Петка ьѫ будеше:
"Стани ми свѣта Неделя,
Сега сѣ соно не спіе.
Рано ми рано станува,
До два празници кажува,
Свѣтни ми цѫркви отворатъ,
Ангелъ отъ небо слегуватъ,
Ристосово лице омиватъ,
Закони по земя кажуватъ,
За да вѣруватъ Рисяни."

Кога Неделя разсони,
Дробни ми сѫлдзи порони
По свои свѣтни образи;
Свѣта Неделя прикажи:
"Сестро ми свѣта и Петко!
Малко ми дремка фатила,
Да чудимъ сонокъ сонвала!
Стредъ море дѫрво израстло
Израстло дѫрво високо,
Вѫръ небо дѫрво крепеше,
Да подъ дѫрво-то две лискя,
Два листа били широки,

Свата ˋѣ земя покриватъ.
Тіе не биле два листа,
Туку си били две книги,
Що 'и пеетъ попови,

Да завѣруватъ Рисяани,
Да си дѫржѣтъ празници,
Свѣтаа Петка, Неделя.

[Carlin]

Ра. Жинзифов - Москва, 1860 година.

(Посвещавам Д. Миладинову)

Как ет драго, как ет мило,
Все що Българско народно
А що Гърчко, пусто бьiло,
Недостойно и противно