Muslims in Balkan Should Promote Europe of Peace and Hope

[Philosopher]

You have denied this when you said that the legions of deamons are only tradition and this does not apply because it is not on the scriptures Philosopher.
Don't make me show what you wrote. It's already there.

First, I am well aware of what I wrote. Second, most tradition in the Orthodox church stems not from Scripture, but from oral tradition that has passed down. Orthodox tradition that stems from Scripture is based on interpretations of Scripture which the Orthodox church holds.

In regard to the story about demamons, and their role in death, this is NOT found in Scripture, and it is NOT based upon an analysis of Scripture, but rather oral tradition or some other false tradition.

I really think you just don't know anything about tradition and its place in the faith. Tradition is faith.

Tradition is not faith Spitfire. This is an absurd statement.

Philosopher, I think these books are crap, but if I had to coose one I'd choose the new testament, because it is closer to the story I would like to read and connect myself with.

Thank you. You just proved my point. You are typical of most Orthodox Christians. You have no real faith in Scripture, which is God's revelation, but rather in a system of church traditions.

Unction is tradition, tradition is faith. Therefore Unction is about the saving of the soul. Do you want an example of this? Of how a soul is saved by the Unction and the prayers of others? Let me know.

Unction may be tradition, but tradition is not faith. Unction does no such thing. Souls can never be saved by unction or prayers. Salvation is of grace through faith in each individual.

[spitfire]

Unction is not tradition which is not faith, Tradition stems from scripture but it's not faith, salvation cannot be done with the help of others.

Listen to how absurd you sound Philosopher. You have created a doctrine of your own.
What is the purpose of praying for somebody else's soul if not for the soul of that somebody else to be saved? To save your own soul?
You are way too confused with this.

Everything that explains faith stems from scriptures Philosopher. Even decisions. I already said that.

And to show you how ignorant you are of this particular telonia thing:

St. Seraphim of Sarov once said that "when two nuns fell asleep, my Lord revealed that their souls passing through the customs houses of difficulties overhead. Three days and nights humbly prayed and begged the Virgin for salvation. The goodness of the Lord, by the prayers to the Theotokos, have mercy on them. Passed overhead charges and received the remission of their sins. "Here Saint wants to emphasize the value and importance of prayer. , Namely that we in grief we can offer to our brothers. Of course, God is propitious when there is repentance and humility. If, therefore, we have examples of people who die in the analgesia of sin and no repention, you will have little effect on our prayers. However, we have an obligation to pray for them and God's work to evaluate these prayers and declare for what prayers will work and what not.

You see Philosopher, this is tradition nowhere written in the scriptures. But if you are against it, then you are out of the doctrine.

You may find this absurd, but I'm afraid that's how it is. Enjoy!

[Philosopher]

Listen to how absurd you sound Philosopher. You have created a doctrine of your own.
What is the purpose of praying for somebody else's soul if not for the soul of that somebody else to be saved? To save your own soul?

Spitfire, the problem is is that you do not understand what I am writing. I am not arguing we should not pray for people's souls. The Scriptures teach this. Salvation is of grace through faith. One of the purposes of prayer is to lead a lost soul to faith in Christ. I consider you a lost soul. Prayers cannot save a lost soul, however. They can only help lead someone to faith in Christ, but there is no guarantee of this. So praying for someone is good, but there is no guarantee that it would lead to salvation.

You are way too confused with this.

Not so. I understand it very well. I have been studying this for a very long time.

Everything that explains faith stems from scriptures Philosopher. Even decisions. I already said that.

Orthodox church doctrines do not all stem from Scripture. Many stem from oral tradition. This oral tradition may or may not be consistent with Scripture. Many Orthodox doctrines are not found in Scripture and are not derived from Scripture, but from oral tradition.

Read St. John of Damascus and you will see that he states the same thing. I have his writings.

And to show you how ignorant you are of this particular telonia thing:

St. Seraphim of Sarov once said that "when two nuns fell asleep, my Lord revealed that their souls passing through the customs houses of difficulties overhead. Three days and nights humbly prayed and begged the Virgin for salvation. The goodness of the Lord, by the prayers to the Theotokos, have mercy on them. Passed overhead charges and received the remission of their sins. "Here Saint wants to emphasize the value and importance of prayer. , Namely that we in grief we can offer to our brothers. Of course, God is propitious when there is repentance and humility. If, therefore, we have examples of people who die in the analgesia of sin and no repention, you will have little effect on our prayers. However, we have an obligation to pray for them and God's work to evaluate these prayers and declare for what prayers will work and what not.

You see Philosopher, this is tradition nowhere written in the scriptures. But if you are against it, then you are out of the doctrine.

You may find this absurd, but I'm afraid that's how it is. Enjoy!

Thank you Spitfire. I already wrote that I am not against church traditions. I wrote that church traditions are not equal to Scripture. Scripture is “God breathed”. Church tradition is not. Your reverence for church tradition is very deep. But your reverence for Scripture is very shallow. This is somewhat puzzling.

Philosopher, I think these books are crap.

Orthodox church traditions and teachings do not teach this (about the New Testament that is).

[spitfire]

Philosopher, my pinpointing in tradition, doesn't mean that I have not good knowledge of the scriptures.
My pinpoint is made only to show you that the beautification of a religion is only in our minds.

Tradition stems from the scriptures. No matter how it is stemed. Let's not go over this again.

Unfortunately we can't choose some things and leave other things out. The problem is that we beautify it because it is us and not them. When something doesn't fit the picture we leave it out. That's false.
The muslims fall in the same trap. I have no doubt.

This is the meaning of the title of the thread by the way. What muslims should do, according to Islam.

They can only help lead someone to faith in Christ, but there is no guarantee of this. So praying for someone is good, but there is no guarantee that it would lead to salvation.

A guarantee??? Oh boy... . For how many miles?

I gave you an example of how a soul was saved through the prayer of others Philosopher which you denied.

[Risto the Great]

You are reading from the old testament

I'm confused (still).
What's wrong with the Old Testament? Was God wrong back then? Did He have another think and get it right in the New Testament? What happens when we get the Newer New Testament? Will you abandon the New Testament just as quickly?

[Philosopher]

A guarantee??? Oh boy... . For how many miles?

I gave you an example of how a soul was saved through the prayer of others Philosopher which you denied.

Prayer cannot save anyone. Salvation takes place only in the individual by a conscious decision to confess Jesus Christ and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Praying for someone to be saved will not save anyone. Prayer can and should be made on behalf of the unsaved to seek God and for regeneration, but the prayer itself cannot save anyone.

This is the Scriptural view of salvation Spitfire. I advise you to learn it well.

[spitfire]

Fine. I equally advise you to read my example again.

It stems from the scriptures because it explains the scriptures. Unless you explain them better than the church.

[George S.]

"Prayer cannot save anyone. Salvation takes place only in the individual by a conscious decision to confess Jesus Christ and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Praying for someone "to be saved will not save anyone. Prayer can and should be made on behalf of the unsaved to seek God and for regeneration, but the prayer itself cannot save anyone."

This is called INTERCESSION.No one can really be saved on its own.Yes you can pray for other people but,but people are really responsible for their own actions not others.This is a false doctrine that has crept on a unsuspecting church just like the trinity doctrine and others.Man made doctrines not god inspired doctrine.The bible shows how one ISREALLY saved by beleif in jesus christ through acceptance ,by faith,beleif etc etc etc NOT JUST INTERCESSION which is a false bELIEF that someone else will work for you.

[spitfire]

This is a false doctrine that has crept on a unsuspecting church just like the trinity doctrine and others.

George S. Please....

The trinity especially is what orthodox christianity is. Remember the Folioque case.

[Constellation]

George S. Please....

The trinity especially is what orthodox christianity is. Remember the Folioque case.

It does not appear that George S is an Orthodox Christian. The Holy Trinity is a near universal doctrine in Christendom.

As for this thread in general, and the comments thus far posted, I would add that Islam and the doctrines of the Koran, and the teachings of the prophet Mohammed, are false.

This analysis is not based on the theory that Islam is false because it is Arabic in origin or Eastern, but rather based on the teachings of the Bible.

Frankly, I am not sure why there is even a debate about this. Islam is a false religion and worships the pagan Arabic moon god.

[Nikolaj]

I'm confused (still).
What's wrong with the Old Testament? Was God wrong back then? Did He have another think and get it right in the New Testament? What happens when we get the Newer New Testament? Will you abandon the New Testament just as quickly?

What are your thoughts about the quote from the bible about the wrath of God?

The old testament is like a father speaking to a child.

For example, from that previous quote that God will unleash wrath and 'destroy you from the earth' is only to get the child generation to listen.
The new testament isn't written that way, as the new testament and even up to this point is for an adult generation - who now know better.
And this loving God isn't destroying the person because of his/her evil deeds, his destroying the evil itself.
It makes sense for something thats the complete opposite of evil to not like evil, hence that quote, it's just an expression.
- Christian bible: Destroy you. How do you destroy someone?
- Quaran: killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Physically and self-explanatory

You may ask now, what about the people?
Those people aren't judged the same way we would be judged, it's like placing a child on trial for murder the same way you place an adult on trial, it's wrong to.

If God has unleashed anything negative on society, it's actually out of love and mercy on generations and generations upon society.
I'm sure you could apply a modernistic concept to this as well for an example which holds the same principal.

The God of Islam inflicts negative on society for his own defence, not the defence of love.

So Risto, I hope you can see why Christians don't follow the old testament anymore but it doesn't mean they can't learn from it, people look back at it now for far more complex and deeper things like how God really feels - there's no abandonment of the old testament.

As I understand,this is for people that "make war against" muslims,not non-muslims in general just because they're from another religion.

No, this is just one of many quotes, and I maybe have misguided you to believe they only inflict harm on terms of defense. This is simply not true.

I’m going to quote this random website I found just now just for the ease of me not having to explain everything myself or look for specific verses. There's plenty more...

Muslims continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years, checked only by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.
None of these other religions are at war with each other.
Islam teaches that non-Muslims are less than fully human. Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim.
Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or for criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad. Why do you think you see all these terrorist attacks are in the name of Allah. You see this is only extremists clearly, but they are following what their God told them to do.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Top-10-Reasons.htm

Edit:

A book that is accepted by Christians to its entity. Unless you think otherwise. But then you are not talking about Christians.

Read the bolded part above.

Also Spitfire, the thing you said earlier:

The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims worship the same god, with the same thing in mind, but in a different way.

Only shows you have not only shows you have no knowledge about these religions, but proves you're analysing them only in a philosophical sense.
I actually cringed reading that, and believe me I am intellectual enough to see why you think that may be true but God i'm cringing so hard! haha

[Nikolaj]

It does not appear that George S is an Orthodox Christian. The Holy Trinity is a near universal doctrine in Christendom.

As for this thread in general, and the comments thus far posted, I would add that Islam and the doctrines of the Koran, and the teachings of the prophet Mohammed, are false.

This analysis is not based on the theory that Islam is false because it is Arabic in origin or Eastern, but rather based on the teachings of the Bible.

Frankly, I am not sure why there is even a debate about this. Islam is a false religion and worships the pagan Arabic moon god.

Agreed.

Like what Spitfire was telling me that they think the same thing we think for them. However, it doesn't mean they're correct to think that.
We've even done analysis of things like these, they don't even want to look outside of the box, just kill for Allah! -.-
I don't even see how they could think anything else if they can't see the evil within their 'book'.

[DraganOfStip]

No, this is just one of many quotes, and I maybe have misguided you to believe they only inflict harm on terms of defense. This is simply not true.

I’m going to quote this random website I found just now just for the ease of me not having to explain everything myself or look for specific verses. There's plenty more...

Muslims continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years, checked only by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.
None of these other religions are at war with each other.
Islam teaches that non-Muslims are less than fully human. Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim.
Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or for criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad. Why do you think you see all these terrorist attacks are in the name of Allah. You see this is only extremists clearly, but they are following what their God told them to do.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pa...10-Reasons.htm

Again,none of the above contains actual Quran quotes that implicates the destruction of non-muslims.
And when I saw the nr 10 of that list of reasons why Islam is not a religion of peace (the author really lists the last recording of the cockpit of Flight 93 being "Allahu Akbar" as one of the reasons? ),that was the cherry on the top.
The website you presented as support of your claims is clearly all about anti-islam and you're going to have to do better than that.
For the sake of arguing,one can just type "why Christianity is not a religion of peace" in his Google search bar,and I bet he would find hundreds of anti-christian sites that also make similar list,but that's hardly evidence.
Like I said,I'm not a Quran or Thora expert,nor I have read them so you maybe right about this,but so far you have presented little evidence for these statements.

[Nikolaj]

Again,none of the above contains actual Quran quotes that implicates the destruction of non-muslims.
And when I saw the nr 10 of that list of reasons why Islam is not a religion of peace (the author really lists the last recording of the cockpit of Flight 93 being "Allahu Akbar" as one of the reasons? ),that was the cherry on the top.
The website you presented as support of your claims is clearly all about anti-islam and you're going to have to do better than that.
For the sake of arguing,one can just type "why Christianity is not a religion of peace" in his Google search bar,and I bet he would find hundreds of anti-christian sites that also make similar list,but that's hardly evidence.
Like I said,I'm not a Quran or Thora expert,nor I have read them so you maybe right about this,but so far you have presented little evidence for these statements.

Dragan please...

Anti-islam website, so what's being said in it is wrong.. right? The fact it's anti-islam clearly means it's just making bullshit up.. right? Don't go on a philosophical-loop like Spitfire did.

I just searched up quotes of violence in the quaran and it came up with the same website; they will be copied at the bottom and they also have explanations besides them. It clearly shows Allah imposes war, negativity on non-muslims offensively, not defensively, they are the initiators of the violence, only that first quote I linked on the previous page was out of defensiveness (which gave you the intentions that they only kill in defence, when that is absolutely incorrect - I cannot emphasise this enough because you still failed to understand that in my previous post).

Also I tried searching up a website like this for Christianity and couldn't find anything. Maybe it's because it's hard to justify violence in the Bible with the 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule in the quaran... The closest thing I could find was a quote from the old testament. The fact there's a hate website for Islam means they have something to hate against, and it is against the violence and ideology of their religion- they didn't just make a hate website for the reason to just hate.

Also. I am not being biased here. I could be an atheist and say the same thing. God, one of my best friends was born Muslim and left, he directly told me if he were religious he'd be Christian without a doubt. He supports the Kurds who are defending Christians in the middle east too.

Also, the cockpit thing, there's hundreds of thousands of terrorist attacks that are all directly muslim linked. The person who wrote it used a generic example, of people killing in the name of Allah and Allahs purpose.
I'm having a little trouble trying to find Christian terrorist attacks. Or better yet, a Christian crucifying a Muslim shouting "Jesus, Jesus!"...
Funny, not too long ago, 3 Hindi men came into the Church I attend here and there to prey for luck in their exams. The priest welcomed them, respected them, so did the people. It makes me laugh to think of the circumstances of these men going to a Muslim mosque and what would have happened. Which is the whole story, Christianity doesn't force you to believe, Christianity is all under your own will. If you were Christian and started to stop believing, you wouldn't be killed. I could go on for days of the opposites.

If you cannot see the difference between Islam (pretty much a cult at this day and age), something you will be killed if you leave and something that inspires you to kill people who don't believe in what you believe, it's not even worth discussing about.

This doesn't mean i'm anti-islam. I'm fine with many Muslims. Many of them have not read a single page of the quaran and that may be the reason why. But if they have, it is clearly just from the positive verses, the good you could take from it, rather than the bad.

I think i'll just follow what constellation said. I'm going to just focus on the history aspects of this forum because you are all far more educated within that area. I do not mean that in a rude way, i'm just saying this is more amateur than a first year religion unit in uni.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that unbelievers are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme." How does the Quran define a true believer?

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' in verse 16.

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist." (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought.

Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success." This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions (see above). It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause. Muhammad's words are the basis for offensive Jihad - spreading Islam by force. This is how it was understood by his companions, and by the terrorists of today.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (52:73) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords'."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."

Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Bukhari 1:35 "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty ( if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise ( if he is killed)."

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Tabari 17:187 "'By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.' And they returned to their former religion." The words of a group of Christians who had converted to Islam, but realized their error after being shocked by the violence and looting committed in the name of Allah. The price of their decision to return to a religion of peace was that the men were beheaded and the woman and children enslaved by the caliph Ali.

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 990: - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern creation, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

Saifur Rahman, The Sealed Nectar p.227-228 - "Embrace Islam... If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if your refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all of your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship." One of several letters from Muhammad to rulers of other countries. The significance is that the recipients were not making war or threatening Muslims. Their subsequent defeat and subjugation by Muhammad's armies was justified merely on the basis of their unbelief.

[DraganOfStip]

How about the Torah?You also mentioned Jews promoted violence against all non-hebrews?