Macedonia - Where to Now?

[Macedonian]

I have the feeling that Macedonians prefer to be the minority in any kind of nation. They clearly have no idea how to conduct themselves as a majority.

Indeed Risto. 2000 years of getting beaten about the head tends to leave you thinking it's the norm.

[Gocka]

It looks like we have come to the center of the problem.

-The Diaspora and the Republic currently have an unbridgeable distance between our priorities and mentality.

- So large that at the moment nothing we say or do will have any effect on them.

- A movement from within seems like the only option but currently it seems impossible for that movement to trickle down from the elite, political or educational fronts.

- Odds are if a movement from within were to start, it would fail because Macedonians dont want to take responsibility for their own future, they dont want us taking it either but some outside big brother.

- They want what ever solution means that they have to put in the least effort and have the least responsibility on their shoulders.

- They dont want to be in charge of their own country and everything else trickles down from that mentality.

Unfortunately no matter what we do if they dont want to be in charge of their country then the Macedonian identity is doomed.

So you do the math and the only options that exist that will work in the confines of all the issues above are:

- A large influx of Diaspora Macedonians that will act as a ruling minority within the country.

- A good intentioned political leadership that will steer them in the right direction.

- A destabilization of the country. How do you teach a naughty child that wont listen to stop doing something? When he does it you smack him silly or take something away, he eventually stop doing it. So if what they really want is a carefree lifestyle then you make it so that acting in a careless manner makes your life worse, much worse, then somehow you reward being active and responsible and eventually they will learn. Unfortunately that still amounts to being a big brother.

I'm sorry I dont see many options at all.

[julie]

It certainly paints a picture, but that is the essence of it Gocka

Stupid question, was wondering, can a country be ruled from elsewhere eg government in exile - a political party, is that possible ? I know this is not a good example, but, the Dalai Llama has been the figurehead for the Tibetan Buddhists since the 50's.....

[George S.]

A`rule from the diaspora.Similar to the dalai lama.

[Gocka]

It certainly paints a picture, but that is the essence of it Gocka

Stupid question, was wondering, can a country be ruled from elsewhere eg government in exile - a political party, is that possible ? I know this is not a good example, but, the Dalai Llama has been the figurehead for the Tibetan Buddhists since the 50's.....

Sure you can have a government in exile, but guess what, a Macedonian government in exile will be the first one people in the republic rebel against (no respect/fear) any other ruler would be just fine though

[Risto the Great]

any other ruler would be just fine though

They have that already.

[Gocka]

They have that already.

Haha good one. Well exactly that's why they aren't rebelling, the second a Macedonian is in charge of Macedonia, heads will roll.

[George S.]

Romin exile most of it is allready in other parts. THE govt is neither there or here anyway.

[George S.]

if rthe rom govt is taken out of the picture people will have to make the hard decisions to rebel or not.

[Gocka]

Lets not let this thread fizzle out like many others. We had some good points, lets try and bring them altogether and come to a possible plan of action.

Maybe we need to engage first on some issues that average Macedonians resonate with, like corruption, and state abuse, thus showing them that we are on their side, and not only pursuing our own agendas. Show them that we want to help them. I feel like we need to build some credibility with them first, which means helping them with something that they find important, then after we have gained more trust and respect we can try and introduce issues that are important to us. Besides you cant say that fighting corruption wont help our cause as well right? Its a win win, we want to fight corruption for slightly different reasons then they do in the republic but in the end it helps all parties. Any ideas comments?

[julie]

Gocka, its that great divide that has been imposed upon the diaspora from RoM - they don't trust the diaspora, nor do they see any "help" as warranted , how to build up credibility amongst a group of people that have nothing but abhorrent disdain.

They would rather "help" come from any other source than the diaspora. And nothing the diaspora tries to do will ever be seen as benefitting RoMacedonians .

Dangling rewards in front of them seems to stimulate interest - but as long as they are surviving, they won't accept any assistance from the diaspora.

The whole party based system within Macedonia is corrupt - voters that are members of political parties will receive employment, non members not aligned with political parties don't.
For there to be any change in circumstance the RoMacedonians have to want that change for themselves. And be pro active in initiating it. It astounds me to so many "elite" "educated" Macedonians cannot see the wood from the trees, nor acknowledge that they have the power to initiate change

The frustration of the diaspora is primarily that RoMacedonians accept their sorry lot the last 20 years. And there is no action, for change to occur it does not happen from inaction.
I was only half joking when suggested that RoM be governed by a government in exile.
This has become a generational issue, and the mentality that RoMacedonians deserve the golden money tree with minimal labor effort. Generally they suffer from a poor work ethic, work is beneath them, and have provided examples from within my own family.

I truly feel in my opinion for their to be any form of action from within, where it must come from (and am not talking about diaspora moving back there it is unfeasible nor would we be accepted there).

The reward of autonomy and freedom and a future for the Macedonian identity is not enough , nor do I feel their materialistic desires are ever going to be satiated.
Pscyhologically, punishment in the form of reducing lifestyles to one of greater hardship is what needs to happen. there is no changing the apathy or the slave mentality - if they LOSE whatever priveleges or material assets they have and are striving to maintain , then maybe that will be what RoMacedonians need to wake up to themselves

I had hope that empowerment and positive encouragement would help create a scoail shift and change in thinking. I was wrong. It continues to worsen to a degree their pathetic acceptance of their situation to the point of acqueiscing to those treasonous agreements for what they see as monetary gain, are a lost cause

A government in exile - made up of 2 million diaspora , one that will ENCOURAGE foreign investment. I have heard of instances of Macedonian diaspora being stalwarted in their efforts to set up business in Mak - they DONT want our "help" and we will never be seen as credible. Short of beating them on the head with a hammer I dont know what the answer is

[George S.]

Its never going to happen unless the people will it.Also people need to change a very unlikely occurrence.

[Macedonian]

I few things I heard very recently.

Last week about 400 small business closed down over a two day period...mostly in Skopje and Eastern Macedonia, due to the workings of the 'inspekcija'. They were hit with fines from 200-3000 euros. The vast majority, if not all, belonged to ethnic Macedonians. That's a huge number and seeing that SME's are the backbone of the economy in regards to employment, it's a catastrophic blow.

A few days ago, it was announced that 25% of the adult population have Bulgarian passports. I dare say that the figure is larger than that.

In the last few months, Macedonian TV has stopped airing film clips of Macedonian artists. The public reason was that it was too expensive to publicise/market their music.

So where does it all lead to?

Less opportunity for the populace to earn an honest living.

More people that Bulgaria can declare as Macedonians and more to leave for the sake of 'pechalba'.

The population, particularly the youth, has less exposure to our own music/culture. They see mostly the BS Bulgar clips or Serb and Bosnian items.

Eastern Macedonia, from Veles onwards, go jade stapot za celata Makedonija. Yes there needs to be inspection and control, however keep it uniform and make it apply to the whole country evenly. Not just via a draconian method upon Macedonians. The shiptari don't even see inspectors in Western Macedonia.

These 'pichki' called VMRO-DPMNE are the lesser of two evils??? I don't think so. Perhaps they are there to kill the people softly! They call a press conference and announce a new 'Industrial Zone' and claim so and so will build a factory and employ folk. How many have been talked about and how many have come into fruition?

[Redsun]

Thank you everyone for your POSITIVE input on improving our situation. I feel great knowing everyone here has such good strong intentions to benefit the others that are not so well off as we.

Gocka #7 post "You have to infiltrate a corner stone of the population and build from there". He has also mentioned a "Jump off point"... beautiful logic.

Excuse me for my horrible lack of knowledge on Macedonian law and legal proceedings.

Do we have a Diaspora Radio Broadcast in Macedonia yet?

Has Diaspora got a TV broadcast yet? Is it possible to own a diaspora TV channel there? how does one go about it?

Whats the first step?

I am afraid of time, you see I feel as if we are losing time trying to bridge a gap between the diaspora and the Macedonians in Macedonia (how much more time will pass before we can influence our own dollar, exchange rate, the flag, our name and crippling rulings).

It seems these Macedonians in Macedonia are a danger to themselves and their future.

Vangelovski mentioned in his first post "And where does this push need to come from - from within Macedonia or the Diaspora?" I cant see it coming from Macedonia.

If imposters of other nations can so easily infiltrate and corrupt our government why cant the diaspora?

Whats step one?

Obviously through my post it has been revealed that I don't possess the intelligence and knowledge as the other members on this forum. I cant help asking stupid questions, I don't care insult me all you want as its the only way I will learn.

BTW i hate the term FYROMs and typing in "Macedonians in Macedonia" just feels stupid is there another non offensive term that I may not have seen yet, that I can use?

[Gocka]

Thank you everyone for your POSITIVE input on improving our situation. I feel great knowing everyone here has such good strong intentions to benefit the others that are not so well off as we.

Gocka #7 post "You have to infiltrate a corner stone of the population and build from there". He has also mentioned a "Jump off point"... beautiful logic.

Excuse me for my horrible lack of knowledge on Macedonian law and legal proceedings.

Do we have a Diaspora Radio Broadcast in Macedonia yet?

Has Diaspora got a TV broadcast yet? Is it possible to own a diaspora TV channel there? how does one go about it?

Whats the first step?

I am afraid of time, you see I feel as if we are losing time trying to bridge a gap between the diaspora and the Macedonians in Macedonia (how much more time will pass before we can influence our own dollar, exchange rate, the flag, our name and crippling rulings).

It seems these Macedonians in Macedonia are a danger to themselves and their future.

Vangelovski mentioned in his first post "And where does this push need to come from - from within Macedonia or the Diaspora?" I cant see it coming from Macedonia.

If imposters of other nations can so easily infiltrate and corrupt our government why cant the diaspora?

Whats step one?

Obviously through my post it has been revealed that I don't possess the intelligence and knowledge as the other members on this forum. I cant help asking stupid questions, I don't care insult me all you want as its the only way I will learn.

BTW i hate the term FYROMs and typing in "Macedonians in Macedonia" just feels stupid is there another non offensive term that I may not have seen yet, that I can use?

Hello welcome,

I like your enthusiasm, that's good. You made a good point that if the bulgarians and the serbs can have such an influence why cant we? One thing you said worries me, and that was at the end when you said I hate the term FYROM, and typing Macedonians in Macedonia, whats another non offensive term, what are you looking to describe exactly? The country can be called Macedonia, the Republic or RM being the shortest (Republika Makedonija) The people cant really be called anything but Macedonians, when we speak about both groups at the same time we usually call them Macedonians and ourselves the diaspora, only so as to make it clear when we are talking about which group, otherwise I'm not sure what you are asking.

You said we, so I am assuming that you are Macedonian correct?