Macedonia - Where to Now?

[Gocka]

Perhaps we should list the issues in Macedonia that need the most urgent attention in our minds.

There is the problem my friend, they would have one list and we would have a completely different one.

I think maybe the only one that both groups can agree on is corruption

otherwise its going to be more like, they want more money, we want the OFA voided, they want jobs, we want the acronym dropped, they want to get in the eu, we want the ventilator replaced.

Corruption is the only common one I can think of.

[George S.]

It's a catch 22 what makedonche is saying the chasm cannot be bridged by simply creating jobs or money.What we need is something else to close up the chasm.That is the Macedonian belief of mateship of working together of achieving there are a lot of things which break us up but hold us together.When people of ROM see its a struggle together for real freedom then they will partake of the struggle.WE know what is missing if we can fill that void of the chasm.I reckon it can be done.

[julie]

This is exactly what we need, in empowerment, social cohesion, common aim.

What is it that the people in RoM want the diaspora to do - and it is not an option for the diaspora to all move back to RoM . I have heard how difficult it is for entrepreneurs from the diaspora to try and establish businesses within RoM - a reward - employment !

It is not feasible to have the entire diaspora move back into RoM - and this is the only thing that is continually heard amongst us from anyone there - what positive aims and objectives do people in RoM have that can generate positive outcomes - and telling the diaspora that they have left therefore they are no longer as Macedonian as someone living there is not an option, it is downright denigrating and insulting, particularly those that have left due to politicial persecution from our oppressors - further divided .

I have yet to hear of anyone from RoM come into this forum that has suggestions that will aid and further our cause. RoM would not be able to support an influx of 2 million diaspora taking up residence, so why continually divide the diaspora with - come here to live then comment ?

And this more Macedonian , bigger Macedonian drum that gets beaten - a resident in RoM is NO more Macedonian than the Macedonian blood that flows through the veins of the diaspora Macedonians - a lot who fought and bled in the name of freedom for Macedonia.

Ramo, the frustration of the diaspora is obvious, and no, it is not an option to allow the cultural and ethnic genocide that is happening before our very eyes, we want to see the continuance of our Macedonian name and nation, therefore , we have that right of concern for the apparent lack of inaction amongst Macedonians in RoM. It is that INACTION that is causing the frustration.

we have a saying, and I go by that saying, if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem - what is it that Ramo, and people in RoM, can do , suggest, in how we can work together in UNITY , we are ONE people - our oppressors divided us into 4 pieces, and RoM has turned this into FIVE - the diaspora being the outcasts of their own identity

Please, as Makedonche has asked, your insight, and am sure is more positive than come live here, is awaited

[Phoenix]

There is the problem my friend, they would have one list and we would have a completely different one.

I think maybe the only one that both groups can agree on is corruption

otherwise its going to be more like, they want more money, we want the OFA voided, they want jobs, we want the acronym dropped, they want to get in the eu, we want the ventilator replaced.

Corruption is the only common one I can think of.

Clearly it's an issue about priorities, theirs versus ours.
One could argue that their priorities are largely materialistic and ours are philosophical.
I can't imagine an obvious 'bridge' that spans those two totally different problems and needs.
It's a generational problem that will require a generational solution.

At the moment, those in the Republic have just enough, (they're not starving) so they won't rebel against anything (i.e. government or philosophies )but are lacking enough, (particularly money and materialism) that they really don't give a fuck about anything that would be deemed 'important' to those of us in the diaspora.

[Macedonian]

Macedonia has plenty of work for anybody who wants to work. Part of the problem is that it is low paying, people are not insured and there is no guarantee to get your pay every month. Also, Macedonians will accept jobs for 150 euro/mth whereas the shiptars won't. To give you an example just recently in a town in Eastern Macedonia a shiptar came in and set up a 'konfekcia' and immediately filled it with workers at 150/mth pay. He pays on time every month and therefore is tolerated, even liked. When asked why he didn't set it up in Gostivar he said that his women, shiptarki, would not accept anything less than 350 euro/mth. This is a real and current situation which is evidence of the lack of self worth, lack of empowerment and acceptance of a terrible situation which holds sway over our native population.

I don't believe that money will solve the mindset issue, however a standardized, accord-based employment salary and rights system which is actually uniformally adopted, implemented and enforced will assist in deliverance from this mindset. This is because critical points of focus will not be on paying bills next month and the month thereafter or getting the kids to pechalbari in Germania and heavier emphasis can be placed upon breaking those spiritual and mental shackles.

[julie]

The political set up in Macedonia seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy - I am a member of xxxx therefore I will get employed. The government lacks foresight into passing legislation on uniform and a standardised rate of pay - the structure that is set up is corrupt. And this goes to my previous thoughts in having a group of intelligent, educated people, that have foresight, to start their own party - one where a focus is on generating employment, having standardised rates of pay, of encouraging and not hindering efforts of people from the diaspora that are wanting to invest in business within RoM.
What concerns me is the "cafe" generation - one that looks on any employment beneath them, expects a high rate of pay for minimal effort. This generation seems to have the mindset that gaining entry into the titanic (EU) will have them paid to sit around lamenting their woes . I have witnessed this first hand, from family members on BOTh sides of my family when in Mak 2 years ago. They refuse work considered not of their education status. This concerns me. I have a son with a doctorate in sciences, biomedical nanotechnology. Specialised employment is difficult to come by, so he has pro actively seeked employment elsewhere, not in his field, until he is able to work within his chosen field. It was not beneath me to clean houses for a living, with a degree , when I was without employment in my chosen career path. My cousins have land they can actually use to harvest grains, and raise livestock, but this land has been left to grow weeds , whilst they lament their woes sitting amongst the cafanas of being unemployed and unable to obtain work, and no income. This for me highlights a fundamental issue in the mindset of people. Another cousin stated that being a cleaner was beneath them, and refused to work, stating they refused to dirty their hands, awaiting support from relatives overseas to fund the cafe lifestyle.
What caused this mindset that work is menial, work is work, they have no pride in themselves, and don't seem to be able to shift that mindset, what created this amongst the people ? This is something that needs to change, if there was standardised rates of pay for similar job roles, would this help?

I agree with Macedonian, but I am not sure this will cause a shift in the concept of working for a reward - money - to be able to afford the lifestyle
I found luxury items - mobile phones etc so incredibly cheap in Mak, perhaps if items like this were to be higher priced making them out of reach unless you were working consistently would change the mindset

How to change the mindset ? I totally agree it is a generational issue, and the corruption of reward attaching to either of those 2 pathetic political parties needs to be overhauled

[Vangelovski]

Clearly it's an issue about priorities, theirs versus ours.
One could argue that their priorities are largely materialistic and ours are philosophical.
I can't imagine an obvious 'bridge' that spans those two totally different problems and needs.
It's a generational problem that will require a generational solution.

At the moment, those in the Republic have just enough, (they're not starving) so they won't rebel against anything (i.e. government or philosophies )but are lacking enough, (particularly money and materialism) that they really don't give a fuck about anything that would be deemed 'important' to those of us in the diaspora.

Phoenix, I think you may have misread the Macedonians in Macedonia. I don’t think it’s a case of not understanding their needs and wants or their priorities. Many of us have a very good understanding of their priorities etc. RtG has hit the nail on the head many times. Their problem is with the culture of entitlement. And the Macedonian culture of entitlement is very specific. It goes beyond the usual behaviour of wanting everything for nothing. They want someone not only to provide for them financially, they also want someone (a 'big brother'/nanny government, preferably foreign so they don't have to do it themselves) to make decisions on their behalf and generally take the responsibility of life away from them so that they can live a "carefree" lifestyle. Its a Macedonian culture of entitlement.

While it would be nice to try and find common ground, we don’t really have any. People keep thinking (and they need to get their heads out of it) that our war is with our neighbours. It’s not. It’s with ourselves. It’s a cultural and intellectual war between those who want to have everything for nothing handed to them by ‘big brother’ and those who want freedom and the responsibility that comes along with it. The culture of entitlement, the slave mentality, victimhood or whatever you want to call it permeates every aspect of society.

I’m not interested in coming to an accommodation with that kind of thinking/culture/philosophy. I’m more interested in destroying that it and building a culture of freedom and individual responsibility.

Ramo, while he wailed against “outsiders” telling him and the Macedonians in Macedonia what to do, wasn’t really showing his desire for freedom (individual or collective) – he was protecting what he saw as a threat against his Macedonian sense of entitlement.

[Phoenix]

Vangelovski, I actually don't disagree with anything you've said.
Unfortunately any solution to the problem requires buy-in from those in the Republic or elsewhere sharing similar views on 'entitlement'.

I honestly believe that our 2 positions (Republic V Diaspora) are far too divergent for there to be any bridging.
Perhaps that can change in the future but it's unlikely that it will be in our lifetimes.

The Republic needs to drive it from within, through grassroots movements. They're ideas that will never cascade down from political or intellectual elites, not in Macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, I actually don't disagree with anything you've said.
Unfortunately any solution to the problem requires buy-in from those in the Republic or elsewhere sharing similar views on 'entitlement'.

I honestly believe that our 2 positions (Republic V Diaspora) are far too divergent for there to be any bridging.
Perhaps that can change in the future but it's unlikely that it will be in our lifetimes.

The Republic needs to drive it from within, through grassroots movements. They're ideas that will never cascade down from political or intellectual elites, not in Macedonia.

Ultimately, then, you're of the view that change can only come from within Macedonia?

[Phoenix]

Ultimately, then, you're of the view that change can only come from within Macedonia?

Yes, I do.

They're the ones that ultimately have to change.
Hopefully 'change' will lead to a realignment of shared interests.
You know the saying about leading horses to water...but the Macedonian horse has inaet traversing his veins making him more donkey than horse...but I'm sure you understand the analogy no less...

[EgejskaMakedonia]

The problem is, those in the republic and those in the diaspora are focusing on our differences, as opposed to banding together on what we do have in common. This is the source of conflict.

However, only one of those groups is willing to adapt, and that's evident in the spite shown for those in the diaspora regardless of what they do to shed light on the situation in Macedonia. Changing the attitudes of a group of people is a difficult process and may require a generation or two to take effect. Sometimes they are forced to change their attitudes, and as others here have mentioned, this is what will likely occur in Macedonia. When their core values are threatened (as questionable as they seem to be) or when all they have is taken from them, they have no choice but to take action. The main concern with this inevitability is that by the time this occurs, it may already be too late.

[makedonche]

He made it pretty clear that he doesn't care what we think or feel, and that we in no way shape or form can or should influence anything in the Republic. He said they need more money and jobs in the near term, and that seems to be what the majority of Macedonians want, more money, and more jobs, although the jobs one confuses me because most of them decline many job opportunities that already exist, so I guess what they really want is not more jobs but more jobs that pay very well but dont involve a lot of labor.

Gocka
Let's see if he has the intestinal fortitude to re-engage?

[George S.]

the answer to that is no guts and no glory.

[Macedonian]

The problem is, those in the republic and those in the diaspora are focusing on our differences, as opposed to banding together on what we do have in common. This is the source of conflict.

However, only one of those groups is willing to adapt, and that's evident in the spite shown for those in the diaspora regardless of what they do to shed light on the situation in Macedonia. Changing the attitudes of a group of people is a difficult process and may require a generation or two to take effect. Sometimes they are forced to change their attitudes, and as others here have mentioned, this is what will likely occur in Macedonia. When their core values are threatened (as questionable as they seem to be) or when all they have is taken from them, they have no choice but to take action. The main concern with this inevitability is that by the time this occurs, it may already be too late.

Yes that is a concern however there is only so much the shiptars can take overt control of.

[Risto the Great]

Yes that is a concern however there is only so much the shiptars can take overt control of.

I have the feeling that Macedonians prefer to be the minority in any kind of nation. They clearly have no idea how to conduct themselves as a majority.