Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

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I just google`d and found some articles about the similarities between ancient Persian religion and Abrahamic religions.

You think like you cherish the birth of Christ in 25th December? Nope, Jesus didn't born that day, you just continue to the tradition of Mithra prayers. You think Noah story has been told by the Jews? Nope, it was the Sumerians 3000 years b4 them.

And everything starts with the Persian king, Cyrus`s conquest of Babylon in 6th century BC, when Persians started to teach their religion to the Jews and finally the conquests of Alexander, when the rest of the Anatolian peoples learns Zoroastrianism, world`s first theistic religion;

The Zoroastrian-Biblical Connections, Influence of Zoroastrianism in Other Religions
The exilic period begins at 597 B.C. when the first group of the Judeans were deported by the Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar to Babylonia and ends in the year 539-538 B.C. when Cyrus, the king of Persia conquered Babylonia, issued a rescript granting them the right to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple.1 Henceforth, the contact between the two nations and interaction between the two religions ensued. Many Jews were returned to Palestine and for two centuries remained under the Persian protection.

Darius (522-486 B.C.) divided his vast empire into twenty satrapies and Palestine remained part of the fifth satrapy, with the city of Damascus as its administrative center. For Palestine, Darius appointed one of the David's descendants, Zerubbabel (Sheshbazzar) as its governor, and ordered to comply fully with the Cyrus' decree to rebuild the Jerusalem's temple. Darius, whose era coincided with the Hebrew era of Prophets Ezra, Haggai and Zechariah, ordered all the treasures of Jerusalem that Nebuchadnezzar had taken to Babylonia, be retuned to Palestine (Ezra 6:1-11) for the reconstruction of the temple, that was finished in the sixth year of his reign (Ezra 6:15).

By the order of Artaxerxes I (Ardeshir I) (465-424 B.C.) the walls of Jerusalem were built, and two of the royal court officials, Nehemiah and Ezra were commissioned to compile the Judaic dispensation (445-393 B.C.). Finally reconstruction of the second temple was completed during the time of Artaxerxes II (400 B.C.).

Because of the Persian protection and favorable attitude of the Achaemenid Kings, the Jews entertained warm feelings thereafter for the Persians and this made them more receptive to their influence. 2 The vast difference between the preexilic and postexilic Judaic scriptures is so discernible that even Sigmund Freud contended that there could have been two Moses. But before addressing the influence of Zoroastrianism in the tenets of Judeans, it is imperative to have a better insight into the new Zoroastrianism as was perceived and practiced by the Persians at the time of the Babylonian Conquest. By reviewing the younger Avesta and Yashts, one realizes that at this era, the innovative teachings of Zarathushtra had been intermingled with the concepts of the earlier faith and some of his doctrinal views had been expanded and even altered beyond their originality.

The relevant issues are as follows:

The new Zoroastrianism at this era, believed in one universal God, Ahura Mazda. But the six divine attributes were often envisioned as separate entities, perhaps in the form of archangels that with Ahura Mazda at the center, at times illogically were called seven Amesha Spenta.

There was battle between the forces of good and evil, with the ultimate victory of good over evil. Those who sided with the forces of good, were supporting the Divine cause. The evil forces were regarded as anger, envy, lies and environmental pollution, etc. In effect the Zoroastrian followers had developed a form of angelology and demonology.

The Persians believed in liberty and freedom of choice, as reflected in the Gathas and the texts of later Avesta.

Another Zoroastrian concept was The Kingdom of God or chosen government, wherein all the virtuous men and women reside freely and choose leaders for their righteousness, and the oppressed will be rehabilitated. The goal was for everyone to work toward establishing the "chosen government" where good overcomes the evil.

They believed in immortality of soul, life after death, that the souls of the dead will be judged for their deeds of the past on the bridge of judgement (Chinovat), where they were guided by their conscience and judged by three angels (Mithra, Rashn, Sraosha), who were to differentiate them and determine the eternal dwellings of the two groups in heaven or hell.

Resurrection (Rastakhiz) or the end of the world, when the dead revive and the new world will have a fresh life and new beginning (Farsho Kerat or fresh act).

In the Gathas, Saoshyant is a general term and means benefactor. There are benefactors of the past, present and future, but no reference is made to any promised person who shall advent. The concept of future benefactors however at this time had been transformed into the savior of future who will perform the task of resurrection.

The Israelites on the other hand, based on the preexilic writings had not developed eschatology. They rather believed in Sheol or an underground and desolate world where the good and bad after death will equally end up. Therefore the notions of judgement after death and reward of heaven and retribution of hell, were nonexistent in their tenets.

Yahweh was the covenant god of Israelites and did not have a universal status, the dualistic forces of good and evil, angelology and demonology were absent in their beliefs as reflected in the books of preexilic Judaism.


The Persian Influence
In regard to Persian influence, Frye unlike other authors does not accept that the notion of bridge of judgement in Talmudic 3 Judaism necessarily is a convincing evidence of the influence, as this has been more of a universal view. 4 But later he concludes that demon Asmdai in the Talmud and Asmodaios in the book of Tobit 5 is surely borrowed from the Iranians. 6 He explains that the name Asmodaios derives from the Avestan demon of wrath, Aesmo Daeva. Aesmo is Avestan for fury and Daeva "Demon". 7

Morton Smith of Columbia University finds similarities between the inscription of Cyrus in Babylon and IInd Isaiah 40-46 8 which he finds explained in Avestan texts. 9 Some of the parallels are noted by him are juxtaposed 10 and mentioned hereunder:

In Cyrus' document the ruler is evil, Marduk (the Babylonian god) is angry; in Isaiah, the people are evil, Yahweh is angry.

Marduk scanned and pronounced Cyrus to become the ruler of all the world; Isaiah 46.2: I am Yahweh I have called upon you (Cyrus) in righteousness. I have taken you by the hand and kept you.

And he (Cyrus) did always endeavor to treat according to Justice; Isaiah 42.1: Cyrus will bring justice to the nation.

Marduk beheld with pleasure his (Cyrus') good deeds and his upright mind and ordered him to march against the city of Babylon; Isaiah 43.14: Yahweh will send Cyrus to Babylon.



Considering the Mesopotamian roots of some of the Biblical events 11 12 those similarities certainly entertain the likelihood of the influence of the Cyrus' inscription in the relevant writings of IInd Isaiah.

Smith notes that before the time of Ilnd Isaiah, the notion "Yahweh created the world" plays little role in Hebrew literature. IInd Isaiah returns consistently to this doctrinal concept. He suggests the common source to be the Gathas of Zarathushtra Yasna 44, the chapter of creation. He finds that besides a peculiar style of IInd Isaiah, almost all the questions asked by Zarathushtra in Yasna 44:3-5 are asked or answered in IInd Isaiah with Yahweh replacing Ahura Mazda.13 Only some examples are mentioned below: 14

Yasna 44.3:1-2, O' wise one, who was at its birth the original father of justice? Isaiah 45-8: let the skies rain down justice. ...

Yasna 44.3 :4-5, who made the routes of the sun and stars? by whom the moon waxes and wanes?; Isaiah 40:26 lift up your eyes on high and see who created these?

Yasna 44.4:1-3, who fixed the earth below and kept the sky above from falling?; Isaiah 40-12, who marked the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in measure?

Yasna 44.5:1-3, what craftsman made light and darkness?; Isaiah 45:7, I form light and create darkness....

According to Ashtiyani, in the postexilic books, Yahweh despite remaining the covenant god of the Judeans, develops more or less a universal status. 15 Bagli notes that the term "righteousness" in all the first five books of the old Testament appears only once in Genesis and in the sixty books of holy scriptures it appears thirteen times. In contrast in IInd Isaiah alone, this term appears eight times. l6



Eschatology and Resurrection
Essentially immortality of the soul, judgement and rewards and punishments after death were not recognized by the preexilic Judeans. Zaehner notes that the preexilic view of Sheol, a shadowy and depersonalized existence that is the lot of men regardless of their actions during life, was suddenly abandoned and replaced by the notions of heaven and hell, rewards and punishments when the exiled Jews came in contact with the Persians 17 which later entered Christianity.

The Zoroastrians believed that the soul rises from the dead body and for three nights after death resides in the material world and then proceeds to the other world. This may be termed individual resurrection. Jesus Christ is also said to have risen from his sepulcher three days after crucifixion. 18 The later Zoroastrianism also predicates a collective resurrection (Rastakhiz) when all the dead will rise. 19

The concept of resurrection that was imbedded in parts of the early Hebrew scriptures as Exodus and Deuteronomy became vivid in writings of the postexilic prophets. 20 Daniel 12:2-13 refers to rising after death and receiving rewards. In Isaiah 26:19, the dead will rise again from the graves, the ground will give birth to the dead.



Messiah and Kingdom of God
In the preexilic period, Messiah was only a title of honor granted to important people, and generally the holder of the title was regarded as a person close to Yahweh. During the postexilic era however, it became an especial title for the Lord's Messiah.

Fohrer 21 after a careful analysis concludes that all the sections relevant to the advent of Messiah have entered the holy book during the postexilic era, and IInd Isaiah is the prophet who in particular refers to the end of the world and coming of the Messiah. 22 It is generally accepted that the prophets of Israel after liberation from the Babylonian captivity, in order to generate hope and confidence among the demoralized Jews, introduced the Persian concepts of future hopes such as victory of good over evil, resurgence of Israel, resurrection, future life, heaven and hell and the Kingdom of God. Particularly as the Israelites in this era longed for the reestablishment of Kingdom of David, they developed the notion of Messiah and in effect envisioned the Kingdom of Yahweh in the form of the promised Messiah that was different from the earthly Kingdoms. 23 In other words the political hope of restored Jewish Kingdom headed by a "Meshiach Yahweh" came to be associated with the prophetic and apocalyptic vision of a Kingdom of God in the End of Days. 24 The prophets Heggai and Zechariah saw in Zerubbabel the possible fulfillment of this hope. 25 Thus, the concept of Kingdom of God, originally professed by Zarathushtra as "the chosen government", was eventually transferred through Judaism to Christianity and transformed into the "Kingdom of God". In Isaiah 42: 1-4, "the savior has the spirit of God and will not rest until he has established justice all over the world". Isaiah 11:6 after discussing the above adds after the coming of the Savior "world will live in peace, wolves will live in peace with lambs, and leopards will lie down to rest with goats". This notion is also reflected in Isaiah 62:25. Zechariah 4:14 even speaks of two saviors who are standing before Yahweh. Von Gall suggests that the writers of the book should have had the knowledge of two Zoroastrian saviors, of the later Avesta. Hoshidar and Hoshidar-mah.26 Some Authors contend that the three Magi who visited Jesus Christ at birth, were following the call for the future Saoshyant.



Angelology and Demonology
Another new development in the postexilic Judaism is belief in angels. Mills mentions that "the angelology of the oldest scriptures which was nearly as dim as their Sheol, became occupied with such figures as Michael and Gabriel 27 while the number seven attached to them is as conspicuous as is significant". 28 The seven postexilic angels (Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Israfil, Israel, Uhiel and Uriel) are vividly reminiscent of the seven Amesha Spenta of the later Avesta.

Another striking finding is "the person of devil as Satan ceased to remain a general term and became a proper names" 29 and demonology began to develop. The struggle between the forces of good and evil, or light and darkness as reflected in the scrolls of Dead Sea reflects the Persian influence.



The Scrolls of Khirbet Qumran
Until 1947 information about the three Jewish sects, Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees were sketchy. Jewish historians as Philo 30 and Josephus 31 had reported about their customs and traditions, but even those reports at times were contradictory. For example according to Josephus, Essenes performed sacrifices in their ceremonies, but Philo reported that they had no sacrifices at all and instead demonstrated their piety by sanctifying their minds. 32

Essenes lived from the third century B.C. to first century A.D. in Palestine. The relations of Essenes, and Pharisees from whom many rabbis and teachers of the religion arose, had been already accepted by many authors. It was known that unlike the Sadducees (who were the rabbis and teachers of religion), Pharisees believed in life after death and heaven and hell. 33 The influence of Zoroastrianism in Pharisees is so conspicuous that some authors as Zaehner have called them "Farsis" or "Persians". It was also reported that Essenes believed in resurrection of the dead into new bodies. In fact Josephus claimed that they considered that the body was the prison house where the soul was temporarily confined until death. 34

The discovery of Khirbet Qumran scrolls in the caves of Dead Sea in 1947, shed light on the Essenes' tenets and practices. A French author, named Dupont Sommer, after reviewing the text of the scrolls, found many evidences of Zoroastrian influence. The common beliefs of the Essenes and Zoroastrians have been analyzed by different authors and reported as: 35

Prohibition of sacrifices in the rituals: In the sect's chapter of worship, one finds that they had substituted the ritual of dedicating meat and fat to the fire, with the expression of devotion to God by genuine prayers of the lips, to tread the path of justice and perfection to receive the divine blessings.

The appealing Zoroastrian doctrine that light stood for goodness and darkness for evil, had apparently spread to Palestine before the age of Qumran texts and had been accepted by all the sects. 36 The review of the Qumran Scrolls also reveals that the Essenes believed in a constant struggle between the forces of good and evil. One of the texts is conspicuously close to the teachings of Zarathushtra: "God created man to rule the world and granted him two spirits of evil and righteousness that are with him to the moment of judgement. From the fountain of light the righteous generation, and from the source of darkness the malicious and wicked men will come to existence. The ruler of the light is in control of the realm of righteous sons who proceed in the illumined path, and the other Kingdom is governed by the angel of darkness, where the sons of evil tread the dim path. All men originate from these two spirits and tread their paths. But God in His wisdom has determined the day when the followers of untruth are destroyed and righteousness prevails in the world".

The above passage is reminiscent of Yasna 30, and in particular, the last two sentences that reflect the "freedom of choice" and "hope for the victory of righteousness" have striking resemblance to the pristine teachings of Zarathushtra in the Gathas.

Belief in righteousness, justice and order and prohibition of lies which form the foundation of the Zoroastrian doctrine.

The Essenes believed in freedom of choice as Zoroastrians did, and they professed everyone should choose his path freely. This concept reflects the Zoroastrian influence, as in the original Judaism, it was Yahweh who would choose his people and grant them the blessing of being the chosen.

In contrast to a common belief that wisdom belongs to God, they believed in wisdom of man as well, and expressed interest in philosophy. In the Zoroastrian doctrine, wisdom is the source of all good deeds and only the wise will choose aright.

Contrary to the original Judaism, the scrolls do not superscribe vengeance, instead they emphasize love, good deeds and justice. The Essenes believed in three principles of love of beneficence, love of mankind and love of justice.

Particular attention was given to cleanness and general sanitation. The Essenes took a daily bath in cold water and like the Zoroastrians wore a clean white attire.

The Judeans did not believe in the immortality of soul and the concepts of eschatology generally were not accepted by them even after Christianity. But the Essenes believed in the immortality of body and soul and they regarded the body as the prison house where the soul was confined temporarily, and finally when departed would ascend high. The sect of Qumran also held as an opinion that the souls of righteous will have eternal life, likewise in the new Zoroastrianism Fravashi (the Divine essence) of all men belonged to God and after death returned to the Source.

The Essenes also believed in the final day of Judgement, rewards and retributions.

Their belief in the advent of Messiah resembles the concept of Saoshyant in the new Zoroastrianism.

In the morning prayer, the Qumran sect revered the dawn, sun and light which illustrates the Persian influence. Josephus even goes further by suggesting that the Essenes engaged in some form of sun worship.37



Conclusion
During the five centuries contact, interaction between the two traditions took place. The Jews under the Persian influence developed eschatology, angelology and demonology, and renewed hope for future in terms of victory of good over evil, advent of Messiah and establishing the Kingdom of Yahweh. Many of these doctrinal concepts, later were transferred to Christianity and Islam and the latter actually expanded them. The details of the bridge of judgement (Sarat), punishments of hell, and rewards of heaven, resurrection and return of the souls to the Source in the Koran are the best witness to this fact. Other Islamic views that are derived from Zoroastrianism are the five times daily prayers, 38 emphasis on wisdom, rejection of images, God, being a kind and merciful entity who is "the light of the heavens and the earth", and conceivably emphasis on helping the poor. It is interesting that although the prophet of Islam in Koran, is titled "the last Prophet", the concept of future savior was not however, entirely forgotten among all the Islamic sects. The Iranian Shiites believe in the last Imam who will come when the world is in disarray, and who will establish justice, order and tranquility.

http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/articl...connection.htm

Zarathushtra – Source of the Judeo-Christian Heritage
The religion of Zarathushtra is so little known in our times, though many Judeo-Christian traditions and beliefs have their origin in this ancient religion, which was so dominant and wide-spread in Persia before the birth of Christ.

We use words such as ‘satan,’ ‘paradise,’ ‘amen’ almost daily without knowing, however, their Zarathushti origin. We all know of the three magi that predicted the birth of Christ. So sad, however, is the state of our ignorance about this religion, that few are today aware that these magi from the East were none other than Zarathushti priests. Zarathushtis can thus proudly claim that they heralded Christianity to the world. Zarathushtis had a belief in the coming of a Savior, born of a virgin mother, centuries ago [Vendidad 19.5 and Zamyad Yasht 19.92].

Mithraism and Christmas;
Most scholars agree that Christ was not born on December 25th, which was reckoned as the winter solstice in the Julian calendar. The Romans celebrated it very fervently as the Nativity of Mithra, the Sun-God that they adopted from Iran.

Mithraism was very popular among the Romans and many relics of Mithra temples, unearthed all over Europe, bear testimony to it. It was a corrupted and distorted form of the Zarathushti religion, but even in its corrupted form, it stood for certain basic Zarathushti values such as truth, justice, brotherhood, kindness and loyalty, which inspired allegiance among millions of Romans and Europeans. Franz Cumont, a noted authority on Mithraism, writes in his book, “The Mysteries of Mithra”:

“Never perhaps, not even in the epoch of the Mussolman invasion, was Europe in greater danger of being Asianicized than in the third century of our era … a sudden inundation of Iranian … conceptions swept over the Occident, … and when the flood subsided, it left behind in the consciousness of the people a deep sediment of Oriental beliefs, which have never been obliterated.”

It seems the early Christians absorbed many Mithraic traditions and festivals, but gave them a Christian significance, such as to Christmas on December 25th.

Major contributions;
Among Zarathushtra’s major contributions to our present-day religious heritage, was a belief in an all-wise, all-powerful and eternal God, free will, heaven and hell, individual judgement, resurrection, last judgment, life everlasting for the reunited soul and body, the coming of a savior, strong ethics based on good thoughts, words and deeds, and equal rights and respect for women.

One of the chief attributes of the Lord is feminine – the name ‘Mazda’ itself having a feminine base and, of the six amesha spentas, three are masculine and three feminine. Words such as ‘paradise’ among others, are ancient Iranian. Zarathushtra discovered that the whole universe was governed by a cosmic Law of Asha (righteousness) and enjoined upon his disciples to follow this law and make this earth a better place to live for all mankind. His scriptures revere the souls of all good men (as well as women) of all times and nations, even those at war with Iran, who follow this law and further the kingdom of God on this earth. These teachings later became so familiar to the nations west of Iran. Nevertheless, it is only in the religion of Zarathushtra that these doctrines have retained their fullest logical relevance and purity, as Zarathushtra time and again emphasized the goodness of the physical world and human body, and the utter impartiality of divine justice.

Individual salvation he made repeatedly clear, depends on the sum of his or her thoughts, words and deeds, and how well one follows the Law of Asha. There could be no intervention whatsoever, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being or priests to alter this. The Day of Judgment, therefore, has an overwhelming and pointed significance to a Zarathushti.

Cyrus and the Jews;
How well Zarathushtra’s doctrines shaped the conduct of his followers and how they in turn shaped the course of history is, however, most evident in the conduct of the most powerful emperors Iran has ever produced, namely Cyrus and Darius, who are also the greatest empire-builders known to recorded history. It was King Cyrus who freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity.

Cyrus (and his successors) made no attempt to impose the Zarathushti religion on his subjects but his inscriptions bear live witness to the fact that he encouraged each of his subjects to live a good life according to their own tenets. He allowed the Jews to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. Dr. Mary Boyce observes in this regard [Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices,” 1979, p. 51]:

“This was only one of many liberal acts recorded of Cyrus, but it was of particular moment for the religious history of mankind; for the Jews entertained warm feelings thereafter for the Persians, and this made them the more receptive to Zoroastrian influence.”

The Jews regarded Cyrus as a Messiah, and therefore one who acted in Yahweh’s name and authority. In the Old Testament [Second Chronicles 36:22 and 23] reads:“In the first year of Cyrus, King of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord, spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus, King of Persia, to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing. This is what Cyrus, King of Persia, says: ‘The Lord, the God of Heaven, … has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem.’”

Again in the Old Testament, the first verse of Ezra repeats this theme and adds that King Cyrus returned to the Jews 5,400 articles of gold and silver which the Babylonians had taken away from their temple in Jerusalem.Yahweh himself is represented as saying [Isaiah 42: 1,4]

“Behold my servant whom I uphold,” “Cyrus will bring forth justice to the nations … he will not fail … till he has established justice in the earth.”

Pre- and post exilic beliefs;
Zarathushti doctrines became disseminated throughout the Persian empire which extended from India to the Mediterranean. The Jews who were one of these peoples found many congenial elements and similar ideas in their faith. Both had many common beliefs such as belief in one God, coming of a Messiah and a strict code of behavior and ethics. The Jews had progressed much in their ethical and spiritual conceptions during the Babylonian captivity. This progress happened to be for the most part in just those doctrines which were commonly held by millions of Zarathushtis among whom they lived.

Perhaps the foremost among these is the belief in a future life. Those portions of the Old Testament that were written before the Exile scarcely mention it. They knew no reward for their deeds other than what they found on this earth. Their hopes were centered around this world and prosperity in this life. The Exile, however, made a great difference in the Jewish thinking in this regard, for it is during this period and thereafter that we find for the first time in their recorded history, the expression of a hope in the other world. There is an entirely new note struck in the words such as these in the later Isaiah:

“Let thy dead live, let thy dead body rise. Awake and sing, ye shall dwell in the dust; for thy dew is the dew of heroes, and the earth shall cast forth the shades.”

Also in Daniel:
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Even after the Exile this lesson about the immortality of the soul was not assimilated by all Jews, notably by the Sadducees. But the people who professed this new doctrine were called the Pharisees, meaning ‘Persians’ (according to some scholars). Zarathushti influence on the Dead Sea Scrolls has been unanimously accepted by historians.

As Dr. Boyce notes [Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices,” 1979, p. 99]:“So it was out of a Judaism enriched by five centuries of contact with Zoroastrianism that Christianity arose – a new religion with roots thus in two ancient faiths, one Semitic, the other Iranian. Doctrines taught perhaps a millennium and a half earlier by Zoroaster began in this way to reach fresh hearers: but again as in Judaism, they lost some of logic and coherence by their adoption into another creed; for the teachings of the Iranian prophet about creation, heaven and hell and the days of judgment, were less intellectually coherent when part of a religion proclaimed the existence of one omnipotent God, whose unrestricted rule was based not on justice but on love. They continued nevertheless, even in this new setting, to exert their powerful influence on men’s strivings to be good.”

Dr. Kersey Antia

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religi..._judchrist.htm

RESEMBLANCES BETWEEN MITHRAISM AND CHRISTIANITY

1. Both Mithras and Christ were portrayed as young and beardless; both sometimes appeared in the shepherd's role, and both saved mankind by performing sacrifical deeds.

2. Both Mithras and Christ had virgin births in the sense that they were conceived without any sexual union between man and woman. Christ's father was said to be God, while Mithras was said to have had no father or mother, having emerged as an adult from a large rock.

3. Both Mithraism and Christianity celebrated the birth of their god on the winter solstice, the 25th of December according to the Julian calendar. Both featured the sharing of presents, the use of Christmas trees with candles, and nativity scenes that included shepherds attracted by a sacred light. The special importance of this solstice ceremony to Mithraists would be indicated by the name Mithras, which derived from Meitras, which in Greek numerology refers to the number 365, the last day of the solar year at the winter solstice.

4. Both the Old Testament and Mithraic legend told of the first human couple having been created. Mithra supposedly kept a watchful eye over their descendents until Ahriman caused a draught that caused such thirst that they begged Mithra for water.

5. Both told of a major flood, in the case of Mithra through his having shot an arrow into a stone cliff to quench mankind's thirst. Unfortunately, the entire world's population was drowned in a flood produced by the water spout that gushed from the hole his arrow produced. One man alone (a Noah figure borrowed from the earlier Sumerian myth of Atrahasis) was warned in time and could therefore save himself and his cattle in an ark.

6. Both Mithraism and Christianity emphasized mankind's redemption resulting from a sacrificial death followed by the god's ascent to heaven. In the case of Christ, it was the god himself (or his son) who was sacrificed; in the case of Mithra, it was a sacred steer that Mithra sacrificed.

7. Both featured resurrection through sacrifice. Mithraism more obviously drew upon spring equinox fertility myths by depicting Mithra's sacrificial bull with a tail that consisted of sheaves of wheat that were supposedly scattered throughout the world once it was slaughtered. Also, the bull's blood formed the milky way, allowing human souls both to be born and to return to the heavens after death.

8. Both told of a Last Supper linked with the blood sacrifice whose symbolic recreation by eating bread and wine provided salvation for all worshippers. After Mithra killed the bull depicted in Mithraic art, he feasted upon it with the Sun God and other companions before ascending to the heavens in the sun god's chariot. The sequence was slightly different in the New Testament: Christ's Last Supper necessarily preceded his crucifixion rather than following it, after which he ascended to heaven.

9. Both emphasized purification through baptism, Mithraists by washing themselves in the blood of sacrificial oxen. While dying oxen bled to death on lattice floors built over their heads, initiates both drank and washed themselves with the blood that dripped on them.

10. Both featured secret temples located underground. For Christians it was a temporary expedient to avoid persecution, but for Mithraists it became a permanent institution, each small chapel, called a Mithraeum, having seated no more than fifty worshippers and having been constructed to point from east to west. Rounded ceilings were painted blue and imbedded with gemstones. There were no windows except for a few chapels in which tiny holes in the ceiling that had been bored to let in the light of certain stars at particular times of the year.

11. Both held Sunday to be sacred.

12. Both encouraged asceticism. Mithraists were expected to resist sensuality and to abstain from eating certain foods.

13. Both emphasized charity. Mithra was identified as the god of help who protected his worshippers, whatever their tribulations in life.

14. Last and probably least, both emphasized a rock, Mithra having been born from one and the Vatican having been built on one.

15. Both Christianity and Zoroastrian eschatology emphasized the conflict between virtue and vice as a cosmic rivalry between a God and Satan figure. The Zoroastrian god was Ahura Mazda and the Satan figure was Ahriman. The world was filled with good and bad angels, the latter called devas, or devils.

16. Both emphasized the overriding importance of an immortal soul that survives the body.

17. Both anticipated a judgment day, when mankind would once and for all be divided into those accepted in heaven and those consigned to eternal punishment in hell. The Zoroastrian explanation was that all of humanity would be obliged to cross a sifting bridge. Sinners would lose their balance and tumble into hell; the virtuous would be able to cross without falling, after which they could ascend to heaven.

18. As opposed to other early religions, which consigned all the dead to an underworld, both Christianity and Zoroastrian dogma located hell in the underworld and heaven in the sky, where God was located.

http://www.edwardjayne.com/christology/mithra.html

[George S.]

if you beleive in christianity & jesus you'll beleive in the flood.We are hearing people 's excuses like what if.You are not even considering gods activity in all this he brouht it up on mankind & he made a promise by producing a rainbow that he would not introduce a worldwide calamity of that proportion again.If you think it looks impossible then it isn't for god.Scientists say that the flood is a fact it's scientifically proven.So don't waste your time arguing.The flood happened because like today some people are saying there is no god.No god they thought they can do what they want.& so god made the flood happen because of mans immoral & depraved ways.The flood was a punishment for mans behavior who thoght there is no god.Jesus said noah & his sons were real.As you can see a lot of countries derived from noahs sons.What's happening now is people are questioning god & his power ,don't understimate god & his power.

[George S.]

Noah's Ark Discovered in Iran?
Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News
July 5, 2006
High in the mountains of northwestern Iran, a Christian archaeology expedition has discovered a rock formation that its members say resembles the fabled Noah's ark.

The team discovered the prominent boat-shaped rocks at just over 13,000 feet (4,000 meters) on Mount Suleiman in Iran's Elburz mountain range. (See Iran map, photo, country profile.)
Noah's Ark Quest Dead in Water -- Was It a Stunt?
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"It looks uncannily like wood," said Robert Cornuke, president of the Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration Institute (BASE), the Palmer Lake, Colorado-based group that launched the expedition.

Photos taken by BASE members show a prow-shaped rock outcrop, which the team says resembles petrified wood, emerging from a ridge.

"We have had [cut] thin sections of the rock made, and we can see [wood] cell structures," Cornuke said.

Cornuke acknowledges that it may be hard to prove that this object was Noah's ark. But he says he is fairly convinced that the rock formation was an important place of pilgrimage in the past.

The BASE team has uncovered evidence of an ancient shrine near the outcrop, suggesting that this was an important place to people in the past, Cornuke says.

"We can't claim to have conclusively found the ark, but it does look like the object that the ancients talked about," Cornuke said.

Noah and the Flood

The story of Noah's ark is told in three major world religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

The Book of Genesis describes a great flood created by God "to destroy all life under the heavens."

But before the flood, God told Noah, one of his human followers, to build an ark and fill it with two of every species on the Earth.

Once Noah had done this, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. After 7 months and 17 days the waters receded, according to Genesis, and the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

Most Bible scholars have interpreted this to refer to Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey. (See Turkey map.)


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But this location doesn't fit the description given in Genesis of the ark's passengers journeying from the east to arrive at Mesopotamia.

Cornuke and his team think that Mount Ararat might be a red herring.

"The Bible gives us a compass direction here, and it is not in the direction of Turkey. Instead it points directly towards Iran," Cornuke said.

Pilgrim Shrine?

Using the Book of Genesis and other literary sources, the BASE team journeyed to Iran in July 2005 to climb Mount Suleiman.

They chose Mount Suleiman after reading the notes of 19th-century British explorer A. H. McMahan.

In 1894, after climbing Mount Suleiman, McMahan wrote in his journal, "According to some, Noah's ark alighted here after the deluge."

McMahan also spoke of wood fragments from a shrine at the top of the mountain where unknown people had made pilgrimages to the site.

"We found a shrine and wood fragments at 15,000 feet [4,570 meters] elevation, as described by McMahan," Cornuke said.

Subsequent carbon dating of samples from the shrine showed the wood fragments from the site to be around 500 years old.

Lower on the mountain, expedition members came across the ark-like rock formation, which they estimate to be about 400 feet (122 meters) long.

Rocks From the Sea?

Not everyone is convinced by the BASE team's claims.

Kevin Pickering, a geologist at University College London who specializes in sedimentary rocks, doesn't think that the ark-like rocks are petrified wood.

"The photos appear to show iron-stained sedimentary rocks, probably thin beds of silicified sandstones and shales, which were most likely laid down in a marine environment a long time ago," he said.

Pickering thinks that the BASE team may have mistaken the thin layers in the sediment for wood grain and the more prominent layers as beams of wood.

"The wider layers in the rock are what we call bedding planes," he said.

"They show fracture patterns that we associate with … the Earth processes that caused the rocks to be uplifted to their present height."

The boat-shaped structure can also be explained geologically, says retired British geologist Ian West, who has studied Middle Eastern sediments.

"Iran is famous for its small folds, many of which are the oil traps. Their oval, ark-like shape is classical," he said.

Meanwhile, ancient timber specialist Martin Bridge, of England's Oxford Dendrochronology Laboratory, is doubtful that a wooden structure would have lasted long enough to petrify under ordinary conditions.

"Wood will only survive for thousands of years if it is buried in very wet conditions or remains in an extremely arid environment," he said.

Bible scholars think that Noah built his ark somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, making preservation highly unlikely except in extreme environmental conditions.

And even if the wood had petrified, there seems to be little evidence of Noah's carpentry, according to Robert Spicer, a geologist at England's Open University who specializes in the study of petrification.

"What needs to be documented in this case are preserved, human-made joints, such as scarf, mortice and tenon, or even just pegged boards. I see none of this in the pictures. It's all very unconvincing," Spicer said.

Bridge, the Oxford timber specialist, points out that it would also be impossible for a boat to run aground at 13,000 feet.

"If you put all the water in the world together, melting both the ice caps and all the glaciers, you still wouldn't reach anywhere near the top of the mountain," he said.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

Are there any specific time slots you want to point out in those video clips (they are fairly long)? Are there any specific examples of archeaological finds that have CONCLUSIVELY disproven anything from the Bible that you want to point out?

Sure Tom. If you have the time one day I would recommend watching both videos in full because Professor Hector Avalos (biblical scholar) gets into detail about how archaeology killed the bible.

But if you want to see something exclusive the first posted video from the 14:00 - 27:00 in which he raises a correspondence between an Egyptian pharoe and local leaders in the region during the supposed time of the Exodus and how the supposed findings of Solomons Gates were not Solomons Gates at all. I know what I'm asking you to watch is over 10 minutes long but in order to get a clear, detailed explanation from Avalos you must watch between the times specified.

[TrueMacedonian]

TrueATHIEST,

I suggest you remove the crusifix from your avatar it's disgraceful you choose to use it when you have no faith.

Also to posters claiming there wasn't a world wide flood think about it the world was the balkan and the Middle east back then so a flood of that size isn't illogical.

Vojnik I am not here to amuse you or please you. If you don't like it then tough.

Also why doesn't the bible ever mention North or South America? Why doesn't it mention how big the world and how many peoples there really were? I find you are gripping at straws here by stating "the world was the balkan and the Middle east back then so a flood of that size isn't illogical". Why doesn't the bible mention the rest of the world? Or did the men who wrote the bible not know (obviously) about these distant places? Surely God loves all of us and would have made mention of such a large extant of land?

[TrueMacedonian]

Thank you my Athiest friend's for ruining a thread about an extremly old source showing that Greece and Macedonia are disinct nations and that ALexander was a Macedonian. Thanks again for your bullshit athiest views

Your vaugeness about an ancient Jew, supposedly a descendent of Noah, being the founder of the 2 most powerful ancient nations in the world is what prompted this.

Do you accept that the Macedonian Nation was founded by a descendent of Noah as a matter of fact?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Everyone here is so passionate about what they believe in, and passion is good.

Words, of wisdom and can be applied to everything we do as humans.

[Zarni]

The Iranian exploit has been inclusive but has continued to raise questions remember publications like National Geographic and the Discovery Channel cater to the entertainment factor this documentary from the Discovery channel

YouTube - ‪Noah's Ark - The True Story 1/6‬‏
for example from the very first outset says a catastrophic Flood encompassed the Earth so you got to be careful what media say there are many examples of the media doing bad reporting in relation to great Scientific endovours

[Rogi]

TM,

Can any ancient source really be touted as a matter of fact, as opposed to the (potentially biased) view and opinion of the author of the time?

In reality, there's no ancient written source that can be taken as absolute truth.

This is but one more such source which mentions the Macedonians as distinct from the Greeks. I think that's where it should have been left.

[Delodephius]

Origin of Judaism and the Bible:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/index.php

These pages, How Darius Founded Judaism, explain how Judaism was created by the Persians in the fifth century. Colonists were deported into Yehud. Their reward was to have control of a temple state which collected taxes for Persia. Only priests of the temple state were Jews—a nation of priests. The history of the Jews was invented from Assyrian records and imagination, to show the native people as apostates who had to obey God diligently to atone for their past failings.

[Vangelovski]

Atheists can be just as "fundamental" (in the wrong meaning of the word as they like to use it) as Christians are and this very forum is proof of that. Their dogmatic proclamations that God does not exist, contrary to the evidence now available, in my view, goes against reason. It would have been much easier to be a atheist prior to the 18th century, without the scientific advances, which rather than "killing" the Bible are doing more to support it.

What many amatuer atheists fail to understand (while brandishing their own god - science) is that science is not truth or certainty or even accurate (as it is only based on shifting assumptions). What it is is an attempt to understand how the natural world works and not even how the natural world came to be (which can never be proven by science).

[Vangelovski]

Onur/Slovak,

The same warning for you - stay on topic. If you want to open a new thread to discuss your theories do so, but don't pollute this one.

[Delodephius]

I was not polluting. The origins of the myths like the flood, the dispersal of nations, Noah, the Arc, etc. these were all put together in one book under Persian supervision after the 5th century BC mostly drained from Assyrian and Egyptian archives. Isn't that the topic? The origin of the Macedonians according to the Bible? Books of fictitious contents shouldn't be used as evidence for anything, except that people 2500 years ago had just about the same level of imagination as do modern Sci-Fi authors.

[Vangelovski]

I was not polluting. The origins of the myths like the flood, the dispersal of nations, Noah, the Arc, etc. these were all put together in one book under Persian supervision after the 5th century BC mostly drained from Assyrian and Egyptian archives. Isn't that the topic? The origin of the Macedonians according to the Bible? Books of fictitious contents shouldn't be used as evidence for anything, except that people 2500 years ago had just about the same level of imagination as do modern Sci-Fi authors.

What evidence do you have that there was no flood? All you have done is provide various independent accounts of a flood. That supports rather than disproves that there was a flood.