Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

You are a confused individual. Are you unable to even attempt to defend your own evolutionist belief system...or do you just like chasing the unicorn?

Either way, I think this thread as absorbed enough BS for now.

[Vangelovski]

Granted, it's not a science book...it's a perfect example of a zeitgeist work, limited by the lack of knowledge of the physical universe of the period...

That doesn't even make sense. You could say that the Bible does not mention the internet, but so what? Why would it? It was written for a specific purpose (which has been gone over and over) and for the audience of the day. If it made a whole bunch of revelations that nobody understood for 3000 years, what would be the point? Though, using exegesis, we can understand it now because we have an understanding of the history, culture, politics, literature etc of that period.

[George S.]

The bible doesn't answer every question man has but it is a foundational stone to know who or what god is the rest comes from forming a relationship with god.It isn't a blind experience with an impersonal god.YOu are talking here of the real god of the universe he wants areal personal relationship with you & it's a meaningfull one.I think obedience to gods ways & not mans is the answer.God knows what we need even before we ask him.God knows everything.I'm telling you god is all caring,he loves us very much & he does not wan't us to be misled about him.So whenever you talk of god you have to revere his power for he is god& also he is a mercifull god.most of all he is a god of love.

[George S.]

phoenix science does not still know how matter was created.The jury is still out .It probably won't as they are hunting for the god particle.Which proves that the ways to a man that are wise are foolish with god.Do you really think god is going to let man know his handiwork & how he made it.As man does not rely on god & trusts himself for knowledge man will lead himself offguard & produce undesirable effects eg atomic bombs perhaps develop blackholes etc etc.Whatever man has touched man is trying to mimic god & instead unleashes destructive powers.
If man trys to live by science alone man will ultimately destroy himself & if man denies existence of god god will punish man for his non beleif.
If man worships & comes to know & understand god & does the right thing well we should expect blessings on him & eventual eternal life.

[Phoenix]

Again, WHY does it need to mention anything in relation to the physical universe at all - its not a science book.

P.S. No cosmologist accepts that the Big Bang came from nothing. They simply accept that they cannot explain their own theory.

Granted, it's not a science book...it's a perfect example of a zeitgeist work, limited by the lack of knowledge of the physical universe of the period...

[George S.]

makedonin people think that god is a god of fear ..But god is also a god of love & forgiveness & mercy.When one sees the reality its amazing the reason god is called the father.God the father does not want & fear &dread .Jesus came & revealed a loving father instead because people misinterpreted god.Jesus amplified god.God is the god who is exceeding in all things,love mercy forgiveness.etc.So once again you underestimate good you just assess god with your own puny thoughts.God is far greater than we can think up on.Think of the vastness of the universe then think of god.

[makedonin]

Makedonin,

You don't even know the Macedonian word for Macedonia (I believe you use Маќедониа or Мќедониа - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...9503#post89503), so spare us the lesson in Greek.

Vangelovski, that is desperate petty attempt of yours to discredit anything.

I gave you the links of Greek dictionary that are given for interlinear study of the Bible.

So I don't have to know Greek at all. It is all there.

So tell me, is that contradiction or not when fear is concerned?

I would say flat one to that.

Further more it shows only that your religious belief is based on fear.

Scaremongering, also nothing new for you and the likes of you.

Again, WHY does it need to mention anything in relation to the physical universe at all - its not a science book.

Let your fellow creationist explain it to you:

Ernan McMullin has pointed out, Christian doctrines are more than metaphysics and codes for moral conduct; they are also cosmic claims that say something about the universe and what it contains of things. For this reason theologians need to pay attention to cosmology in particular and to science in general.

Have nice day now. I have to work.

[makedonin]

Makedonin, try again.

Pretending to have the upper hand. Laughable.

Do you know where/when the flat earth theory orginated? Do you know who/when promoted it?

It is not relevant who originated it, most probably human ignorance. That is dodge and irrelevant assertion. What matters is weather the Bible had divine inspired cosmological knowledge, or weather it joined the ignorance of the age.

The later is true.

The Hebrew cosmos was three-storied: the sky, or heaven, above; the flat earth beneath; and, under that, Sheol, the abode of the departed. In this regard, primitive Greek and Hebrew conceptions were practically unanimous, and Sheol in the Old Testament was of one piece with Hades in Homer’s poems.
A Guide to Understanding the Bible by Harry Emerson Fosdick

So the real point is that the Bible did not knew it better, thus it's divine inspiration is nothing more than the divine inspiration of all ancient religions and their offered cosmologies.

If the Bible did not know it, why are we to believe it when human creation or creation of the universe for that matter is concerned?

Of course, we find those of your camp who are trying to reinterpret Biblical passages to fit modern cosmological knowledge. However, history shows that they are only doing poor job, since Church in particular was historical adherent of this flat earth view.

Galileo was convicted out of this reasons:

This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting, which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows:


The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.

The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...demnation.html

[Vangelovski]

I think its important TV because GS was quite definitive in his belief that God created everything, that it's impossible for something to come from 'nothing' (Big Bang Theory). Today we have a reasonable understanding of our physical universe (beyond Earth) that I find it unusual that the Bible fails to mention any of these matters...

Again, WHY does it need to mention anything in relation to the physical universe at all - its not a science book.

P.S. No cosmologist accepts that the Big Bang came from nothing. They simply accept that they cannot explain their own theory.

[Phoenix]

Why does it need to tell us anything about the physical universe full stop? When did the Bible claim to be a science book? What relevance does your question have?

The Bible reveals God to us and what He wants from us. Any additional information about the physical universe is incidental to the main theme.

I think its important TV because GS was quite definitive in his belief that God created everything, that it's impossible for something to come from 'nothing' (Big Bang Theory). Today we have a reasonable understanding of our physical universe (beyond Earth) that I find it unusual that the Bible fails to mention any of these matters...

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

You don't even know the Macedonian word for Macedonia (I believe you use Маќедониа or Мќедониа - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...9503#post89503), so spare us the lesson in Greek.

[makedonin]

healthy fear

What is that suppose to mean? The fear that is talked about in the Bible is one of dread and terror:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12 (1)

The Greek word for fear is phobos:

φόβοςflightφόβος alarm or fright
Derivation: from a primary φέβομαι (to be put in fear);
KJV Usage: be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.
Thayer:1) fear, dread, terror
1a) that which strikes terror
2) reverence for one's husband
(source)

and

τρόμοςa trembling, quaking, quiveringτρόμος a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear
Derivation: from G5141;
KJV Usage: + tremble(-ing). G5141
Thayer:1) a trembling or quaking with fear
2) with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty
(source)

Those words have clear meaning, to be afraid, to live in dread of some event or condition, just like Paul wrote to the Ephesians that slaves should obey their masters with fear(φόβου) and trembling(τρόμου) (Ephesians 6:5).

There is nothing healthy in that state of mind.

But we are told that:

There is no fear (φόβον) in love; but perfect love casteth out fear (φόβος): because fear hath torment(punishment, κόλασις) . He that feareth(φοβούμενος) is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.

1John 4:18-19

Why is there need to labour with "fear and trembling" if love has no element of fear in it and Christians serve their god out of love and gratitude?

If this is so, then their faith is based on fear, not love, since love is supposed to have no element of fear in it, that love is supposed to drive away fear.

But why do Christians fear their god so if he's been so good to them?

One word: hellfire.

That's why they serve with fear and trembling. It isn't love, it isn't gratitude, it fear of hell; and their own scriptures prove it.

That's how they get people to believe their so-called "Good News of Jesus:" they try to instill in them a fear of hell, knowing full well that people often fear what they don't know with certainty and what they suspect could be true.

Love, gratitude, or even a reasoned choice, have nothing to do with it: fear is the operative word here, the driving component.

[George S.]

It depends what you want to know.God designed the universe,the heaven & the stars.The heaven is for gods domain,The stars are meant to shine in the night.(to seperate night from day).What it means that all phisical things were created by god a super being,called god,all powerfull,all knowing ,omniprescent,He is theonly god & it is him whom we must obey & pay homage to.
In comparison ,mans god is science which tells you nothing everything just evolved from nothing.
Science cannot explain where matter came from.Matter must have been created it can't come from nothing.

[Vangelovski]

GS, what does the Bible tell us about the physical universe (beyond our planet)...?

Why does it need to tell us anything about the physical universe full stop? When did the Bible claim to be a science book? What relevance does your question have?

The Bible reveals God to us and what He wants from us. Any additional information about the physical universe is incidental to the main theme.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix Let me explain people do not beleive there is a god so they develop their own god science who tells them that everytrhing came all on it's own just happened.The universe has no design & no creator it all just happened.The people have no purpose they just evolved from monkeys.What ajoke.
On the other side there is a creator god who designed & MADE EVERYTHING IN THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE.His biggest plan is to reproduce himself in man after all he produced man in gods image.Man's future under science is very unsecure.Mans future under god is very bright indeed.Under science man simply dies & there is no hope of returning.Under god you can get to become part of god & live forever,Inlimited hapiness,eternal bliss.
Wheras with science you have no hope of salvation.Man has developed weapons of mass destruction,Man folows his evil ways.God says he rules the universe.Science relies on observation for proof.Wheras christianity requires faith & obedience to god.

GS, what does the Bible tell us about the physical universe (beyond our planet)...?