Macedonian Think tank!

[freifrau]

Guys, lets keep this thread clean, preferably without ad hominem arguments.

FreiFrau your positions are little too symptomatic on this issue and having big experience dealing all kinds of propagators we do have a right to suspect when some "German" person gets interested in Macedonian forum focusing stricly on this problem.
I also share the view that it's quite imposible to take you for real on this since you did showed specific interest in anti-macedonian solution.

Bratot,firstly i am not interested only in politics but also in culture/ethnology but unfortunately there aren't many conversations on that matters in this forum.

Second..what is the "anti-macedonian solution" ??
As far as i have read your prev. posts ,i believe that at least you and 2-3 other members can read and understand an argumentation.

I said that for me there shouldn't be any such a problem and Macedonia,clear and only should be the name.....

Is this pro-greek,anti-macedonian,pro-bulgarian,pro-traitor....?

On the other hand you must understand you live in a real world.
In this world exist UN, USA, EU, NATO ...politicians,politics, economy ,war... usw.
I don't have another proposition or whatever...my personal view is krystalclear -I just wonder about the views of the others ,that's why mostly i entered here (and of course to find matterial,link and so for my area of interest ,which i didnt so far)

I am really interested in the opinion of the others and that is all.
Some people here are really immature -they could be children i think..
Some go further more being rude and insulting.
Some are extreme nationalists and racists.

Do you believe that this is a good advertisement for the Macedonian people?
Is this an image you like ?

[Bratot]

Guys, lets keep this thread clean, preferably without ad hominem arguments.

FreiFrau your positions are little too symptomatic on this issue and having big experience dealing all kinds of propagators we do have a right to suspect when some "German" person gets interested in Macedonian forum focusing stricly on this problem.
I also share the view that it's quite imposible to take you for real on this since you did showed specific interest in anti-macedonian solution.

[freifrau]

So, you are Greek, or a traitor.

I guess you live in a world that only Greeks and traitors exist!

[freifrau]

Have you been pretending to be Macedonian?

The only people I have ever seen use 'shake' instead of 'sake' (aside from the fact that the spelling is wrong), are Greeks, mainly because of pronounciation. You are a Greek, are you not? Be honest and don't insult my intelligence, liars are afforded little respect here, and you will not be an exemption.

Have i ever said i am Macedonian ?

Another told me that i am a Bulgarian and also found my full name..
(also making some strange logical conclusion freifrau=baron-ness in German.. (what ???!?) and baron was a Bulgarian in another forum....usw... )

It becomes a bit paranoid...

PS-Actually in German it could be "schake" lol.

[freifrau]

FF
You are proposing something - that we compromise, because it's been going on for 20 years.

nop nop nop.
I am just telling that there are only 2 ways.
1 to negotiate.
2 to leave negotiations.

If the Macedonian citizens do not wish negotiation they should press their government to leave them once an for all,declare to the world that they would never compromise and that is all.

I think i made my point clearer.

Perhaps you can't solve it passing from a forum, but can you at least accept my position and my right to self determination - and the next time you are in discussion with friends/politicians/scholars, point out to them what my position is as a true Macedonian and also point out Greece's position and how wrong it is - maybe if enough people in the right places do this I might actually have my position acknowledged and accepted and be afforded the basic human right to self determination!
The only thing that could be "accepted" is the unalienable right to self determination.

I already stated my personal view which does not really differ from what you state.

I have already participated in such conversations during my stay in the far south Europe..but normally they all ended up with some rakija/tsipuro and laughs.

As for negotiating for 20 years - there hasn't been any negotiating, there has been Greece's demands and Macedonia's refusal to bow to them!

When two parts sit on a table and a mediator makes 3 proposals for a new name of a country..that is negotiations.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Funnily enough, I watched a SDS advertisement celebrating 20 something years of treacherous existence, and there is a young man stating that he belongs to the party and that SDS is completely against a name change. Yet, most of their politicians, past and present, have indicated otherwise. Even the traitors of Macedonia take you Greeks for a ride.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bratot..what if it is officialy agreed the following:

Vardar Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ???

So, you are Greek, or a traitor.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!

Have you been pretending to be Macedonian?

The only people I have ever seen use 'shake' instead of 'sake' (aside from the fact that the spelling is wrong), are Greeks, mainly because of pronounciation. You are a Greek, are you not? Be honest and don't insult my intelligence, liars are afforded little respect here, and you will not be an exemption.

[makedonche]

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
I just wonder if that could be accepted.
I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
This is the message i get.
Cold hard facts..

Or am i wrong ?

FF
You are proposing something - that we compromise, because it's been going on for 20 years. Perhaps you can't solve it passing from a forum, but can you at least accept my position and my right to self determination - and the next time you are in discussion with friends/politicians/scholars, point out to them what my position is as a true Macedonian and also point out Greece's position and how wrong it is - maybe if enough people in the right places do this I might actually have my position acknowledged and accepted and be afforded the basic human right to self determination!
The only thing that could be "accepted" is the unalienable right to self determination.
As for negotiating for 20 years - there hasn't been any negotiating, there has been Greece's demands and Macedonia's refusal to bow to them!
As for the government - they are elected to run the country and as such have no authority to change the people's identity - whilst they may have some manipulative resources at their disposal due to being in power at the time and may have influence over people's opinions by various means, they still don't have the people's authority to change their identity!
The message is "Macedonia - Macedonians - Macedonian Language" and they haven't fully capitulated/compromised, they haven't negotiated anything, proof of this is that the problem Greece has is still there and they are still demanding geographic qualifiers and all sorts of rubbish, they can't leave the conversation because there is still the acronym in current use that needs to be removed! You have the cold hard facts according to you, I have the truth - lets see which prevails!

[Rogi]

ff,

Two-thirds (2/3) of the United Nations Member States, recognise Macedonia under its' rightful name, they recognise the Macedonian people by their rightful name and they recognise the Macedonian language by its' rightful name.

The rest of the United Nations Member States are yet to develop diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia, though none of them are expected to have any problems with Macedonia's name, people or language.

In fact, in all of the world, only one State has a problem with Macedonia's name, Macedonia's people and Macedonia's language; that State is Greece.

You are here promoting Machiavellian politics and the argument of force, as opposed to the force of argument. In a post WWII society, where the entire world adopted a Declaration on Human Rights, one must have faith in the notion of ethics and morality playing a role in the policy and politics of the international community, as opposed to the old zero-sum politics of the 19th century.

Whilst you are here declaring that power rules, whilst what is Right must suffer, we oppose your assessment and what is your reality and we cannot remain anything other than principled in our positions of support for a civilised world where justice and the internationally accepted principles and norms, prevail.

We are cognisant of the fact that Greece is playing a Machiavellian game, we are aware of the consequences of us remaining principled in positions, yet we will continue to persist and persevere. Why? Because we refused to be eradicated both physically (as was the case 60 years ago), or on paper (as are the attempt today) and we will not allow our very existence to be removed from history.

You talk of compromise, because you are unaffected by the matter, whereas what you see as a compromise on the part of the Macedonian people, is in effect an acceptance by the Macedonian people to be an accessory to what we can only see as the worst crime of humanity; the elimination of an entire nation, or ethnocide. You ask the Macedonians to assist in ridding the world of Macedonians, in name and in form, and you term it with the word 'compromise'.

There has already been a huge, excessive and dangerous compromise on the part of the Macedonian people already, the Macedonian Government has proposed a double-name formula. With that proposal, Macedonia would remain Macedonia, Macedonians, Macedonian for the entire world, whilst Greece would refer to Macedonia with another name. The compromise here is that the Macedonians have allowed and accepted to be continually and forever disrespected, in name and in form, by Greece. That in itself is something most reasonable and civilised people would find to be far too excessive, far too generous and down-right unacceptable. Could you imagine agreeing, and signing a document, allowing your neighbour to abuse you every time he see's you? That is the compromise Macedonia is willing to make, and that is already far too much.

Perhaps you might be able to share any 'compromise' on the part of Greece? Anything of substance? In fact, perhaps you could share the actual concerns that Greece has which are at all substantive and valid? I am yet to find any such grievance, nor is there any such grievance, nor, if there were, would that justify this policy and attempt to rid the world of its' Macedonians.

Imagine, all the Macedonains are asking of the world, nay pleading with the world, is to allow them to exist. Yet, inexplicably, Macedonia is being pressured to give up its' Right to exist and more voice is being given to Greece, the State which seeks to eliminate the Macedonians; changing their name is an extremely huge step in doing exactly that.

Finally, on your argument that the Macedonian people, living with difficult financial circumstances in the Republic of Macedonia, are prepared to give up their name and identity - please note that all polls to date have shown that well over 90% of all ethnic Macedonians absolutely oppose membership to the European Union and NATO, if the requirement is a change in Macedonia's name. That is a price all Macedonians deem to be far too dear and downright disrespectful.

[Bratot]

Yes ,in this case you are right..but this also means that the everyday problems may be more serious for the citizens of R.of Macedonia.

It's like you are also implying that if we change our name it will solve our everyday problems!?

Just stop measuring the logical necessity of the citizens with the imposed compromise on their identity.

So either you accept the rules and you negotiate ,or you stop it and have the consequences.Bad or well.

That's why we are calling to stop the negotiations and to cease the Interim Accord.

So we do agree on this and that's why we don't support any government.

Sometmes it's better to live with consequences than guilt.

[freifrau]

The people vote from a much wider spectrum of interests, it's not only the "name issue" a problem in Macedonia, but also the unemployment, economy in general, that's why you can not reduce everything in order to pull out such conclussion.

Yes ,in this case you are right..but this also means that the everyday problems may be more serious for the citizens of R.of Macedonia.

But politicians are only politicians, we don't trust them, since mostly they are just puppets of their EU bosses and they will rather ignore the people.
It's sad I know, but that is the reality in my country and I don't think we are the only such example, would you agree?

It is something in between i guess...they cannot totally ignore the public's opinion in a democracy,but they can manipulate it,overcome it or just draw the attention by presenting another issue.

And if there is:

Macedonian language - > Macedonians -> than why not and Macedonia?

Don't forget that any pressure on us to change our name directly violates the basic Human Rights guaranteed by the UN.

I have already stated my opinion that i fully agree on that.,..but outside there, politics rule.
Either someone accepts it ,or like some people above closes his eyes and yells like a brave internet warrior.
So either you accept the rules and you negotiate ,or you stop it and have the consequences.Bad or well.

[freifrau]

If you're looking for the acceptance of compromise you've stopped at the wrong forum, poster after poster has made that perfectly clear and this forum sits as a microcosm of the views of the wider Macedonian community...if the subject matter continues to perplex you I suggest that you don't share the empathy of the vast majority of members here and it might be best for you to move on...because I for one am getting pretty fuckin' tired of your bullshit.

I am seeking for compromise???

I am telling the Macedonian governments the last 20 years are negotiating=seeking for compromise.
Do you doubt it?

I believe that there are members here who can look beyond their nose and have an open conversation..unfortunately you cannot...

[Bratot]

What if a country presupposes it has sovereign rights and is:
Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ?

FF, you sound like an EU politician.

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
I just wonder if that could be accepted.
I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
This is the message i get.
Cold hard facts..

Or am i wrong ?

The people vote from a much wider spectrum of interests, it's not only the "name issue" a problem in Macedonia, but also the unemployment, economy in general, that's why you can not reduce everything in order to pull out such conclussion.
Therefore you are wrong.

Also it is worth to mention that the main reason why the current government won the elections is because they used the patriotic feeling of Macedonians in their wish not to change the name.
But politicians are only politicians, we don't trust them, since mostly they are just puppets of their EU bosses and they will rather ignore the people.
It's sad I know, but that is the reality in my country and I don't think we are the only such example, would you agree?

The Greek claim to support their fascistic policy was based on our name as a potential territorial claim to their part of Macedonia.
But as you mentioned, 20 years already passed and this claim was exposed as a lie since we are still Macedonia and our existance only helped in preserving stable Balkans.

Those 20 years according to your logic could mean also the very opposite meaning, why there isn't any solution yet and why EU and NATO went that far to blackmail us to change our name if we want to join them.

And if there is:

Macedonian language - > Macedonians -> than why not and Macedonia?

Don't forget that any pressure on us to change our name directly violates the basic Human Rights guaranteed by the UN.

[Phoenix]

Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
I just wonder if that could be accepted.
I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
This is the message i get.
Cold hard facts..

Or am i wrong ?

If you're looking for the acceptance of compromise you've stopped at the wrong forum, poster after poster has made that perfectly clear and this forum sits as a microcosm of the views of the wider Macedonian community...if the subject matter continues to perplex you I suggest that you don't share the empathy of the vast majority of members here and it might be best for you to move on...because I for one am getting pretty fuckin' tired of your bullshit.