Macedonian Think tank!

[julie]

Ljubomir Frčkoski, is a traitor to the Macedonian cause.

[Bratot]

The last informations show that Gerald Knaus, Founding Chairman, European Stability Initiative (ESI), already mentioned on this thread is member of NAVARINO Greek lobby group and close friend of Alex Rondos, former Ambassador-at-Large, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Greece.

http://www.navarinonetwork.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=160&Itemid=459&lang=en

Namely, the recent suggestions of ESI through Knaus are ordered by Rondos, who also is an adviser of the Greek Premier Papandreu.


To make it more spicy, one regular guest on the round tables organized by NAVARINO is:

Ljubomir Frčkoski, Professor of Public International Law and International Relations at the St. Cyril and Methodius University, Skopje

http://www.navarinonetwork.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=346:europes-and-natos-unfinished-business-the-balkans&catid=101:eu-a-the-balkans&Itemid=411

Who openly push the idea for changing the name of Macedonia.

[Bratot]

This is the first time a Macedonian important politician, the president itself, that criticized the EU for violating our human rights!


No one can dispute the right of Macedonians to be Macedonians - President Ivanov
Strasbourg, 19 October 2010 (MIA) - There is not state, government or force in the world that can dispute the right of Macedonians to be Macedonians, because human rights are stronger and more permanent than the transience of certain governments or politicians, Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov said addressing a ceremony in the Council of Europe on Tuesday marking the 60th anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights.
On behalf of Macedonia's chairmanship with the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe (CoE), he stated that in Macedonia Convention's standards were not only observed but also upgraded through the Ohird Framework Agreement.

Ivanov stressed that some of these principles in several European institutions were not being applied on citizens from Macedonia mostly due to the political pressure exerted by a member state, MIA reports from Strasbourg.

"Today I'm proud as a president of the Republic of Macedonia and as Macedonian to be able on behalf of all CoE member states to send noble messages for promotion of human right in Europe in my mother tongue, Macedonian", noted Ivanov.

In order the European Court of Human Rights to function well, it is necessary its rulings to be entirely respected and implemented by all member states, the President stressed.

"The role of the Court and the Committee of Ministers must be strengthened in an effort to put an end to violations of the European Convention of Human Rights by certain member states", Ivanov added.

Ahead of today's ceremony, Presidnt Ivanov on Monday evening accompanied by Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki attended a formal dinner organised by the host, CoE Secretary General Thorbjψrn Jagland on the occasion of the jubilee. UN Secretary General and representatives of 47 CoE member states were also in attendance.

A panel discussion is set to take place Tuesday on the future of human rights in Europe, which will be chaired by Jean-Paul Costa, President of the European Court of Human Rights.

The European Convention on Human Rights is an international treaty to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms in Europe. Drafted in 1950 by the then newly formed Council of Europe, the convention entered into force on 3 September 1953. All Council of Europe member states are party to the Convention and new members are expected to ratify the convention at the earliest opportunity.
ba/fd/13:02

http://mia.mk/default.aspx?vId=77846599&lId=2

[Bratot]

Конечно, Друцас ги отвори грчките карти

Тој им порача на сите дека не се работи за името на државата, туку за т.н. „македонско прашање“! Стави до знаење дека името е само параван и начин да се постигнат многу подлабоки цели



1. Деновиве, на Генералното собрание на ООН, Друцас докрај ги отвори грчките карти, за да нема никакви дилеми за суштината на проблемот. Во дебатата тој рекол: „Спорот со името не е билатерален проблем и не е ситничарење за историски симболи, како што некои сакаат да го прикажат, туку регионално прашање, со длабоки историски корени, врзано за добрососедските односи!“

Со други зборови, Друцас им порача на сите дека не се работи за името на државата, туку за т.н. „македонско прашање“! Стави до знаење дека името е само параван и начин да се постигнат многу подлабоки цели. Името на нашата држава, која е прогласена во 1944 година, нема толку „длабоки историски корени“ за на него да се однесува оценката на Друцас, ниту тоа може да биде „врзано за добрососедските односи“. Во никој случај името не е ни „регионално прашање“ кое ги вознемирува соседите, како што тврди тој. Тоа можат да бидат само Македонците. Името на државата не им пречи ниту на Бугарија (спорни им се точно Македонците), ниту на Србија (црквата индиректно го оспорува народот), ниту на Албанија (која се држи до референцата надевајќи се дека Атина ќе го обезличи народот). Периодот на кој мисли Друцас е далеку пред Втората светска војна. Тоа е времето кога се делеше Македонија и кога беа оспорувани Македонците.

2. Што повеќе требаше да каже Друцас, или кој било од неговите, за да се разбере суштината на проблемот? Веројатно не сакајќи, тој го девалвира и „силниот“ адут на некои за т.н. „антиквизација“ - која, демек, ја поткопала позицијата на државава во спорот. Точно е дека таа не ни требаше во овој момент, ама тој им плисна во лице дека проблемот е многу подлабок отколку „ситничарење за историски симболи“.
3. Говорот на Друцас, прочитан во ООН, е уште една шлаканица за нашите ‘рбетовиткачи. Тие не смеат да признаат дека ова е обид да се затвори „македонското прашање“ со промена на идентитетот на народот. Ако тоа го сторат, „теориите“ им паѓаат во вода и ќе си ја пресечат гранката од која верглаат бесмислици и создаваат раздор во државава.

4. После говорот на Друцас веќе не мораме да ја прашуваме Атина што всушност таа бара, како јавно во ТВ-дебата предложи еден претседателски кандидат. Намерно како и другите истомисленици, и тој ја игнорира целта на Атина, ама „незнаењето“ воопшто не му пречи да поддржува и да промовира решенија за проблемот, кои се спротивни на нашите долгорочни национални интереси.

5. Тажна е вистината дека Атина настојува да го увери светот дека Македонците се сe' уште јаболко на раздорот на Балканот и дека затоа треба да се прекрстат. Тоа што не сме на крајот на 19 туку веќе во 21 век, за нив - нема значење. Барем кога сме ние во прашање. Позитивно е што Друцас ја откри вистината за спорот, која досега ја криеја. Тоа е убава можност за наша соодветна реакција.
6. Сепак, факт е дека Македонците, во рамките на поранешна Југославија, не „бодеа“ толку очи бидејќи тие ни во самата федерација не доаѓаа (доволно) до израз. За надвор од неа и да не зборуваме. Надворешната политика беше во рацете на Белград, со одредено влијание на Загреб и на Љубљана. Ние (речиси) не се мешавме. Распадот на СФРЈ, меѓутоа, ги промени работите. Атина рано сфати дека независна македонска држава неизбежно ќе го промовира македонизмот. Свесна дека тоа мора да се спречи, во август 1988 година, таа за прв пат во историјата почна официјално да го користи името на регионот, Македонија, и за северниот дел од земјата и за три дистрикти. Целта набргу се потврди: да се оспори постоењето на Македонците, надвор од Грција.
Со тоа, почна ново, современо игнорирање на националниот идентитет на македонскиот народ, директно проблематизирајќи го и самото постоење на негова држава. Крајот на исклучително тешката голгота, и за народот и за државата, која трае речиси 20 години, не се наѕира.

7. Самитот во Лисабон, во ноември, нема што да одлучува за нас. Алијансата веќе го верификува нашиот прием, ама под неприфатлив услов. Засега, понудата е јасна: како Македонци не можеме да влеземе ниту во НАТО ниту во ЕУ. Ние сме на потег. Ако сакаме нешто да промениме, мора да се тргне во офанзива. Нема индикации дека тоа се прави. А на располагање имаме низа практични, политички и дипломатски чекори, кои треба и мора да ги преземаме. Со молчење, само си ја влошуваме веќе незавидната позиција.

8. Пред што било друго, треба да се преиспита нашиот однос кон НАТО. Брисел не заслужува наши војници и лекари да ги ставаат во опасност своите животи за нивните (проблематични) цели, а за возврат, тие да нe' понижуваат. Тоа мора под итно да се преиспита. Зошто би го промениле тие својот однос, ако од нас добиваат се што сакаат? Да биде апсурдот поголем, ние уште и го зголемуваме учеството во нивните опасни мисии. А згора на се' наши „експерти“ тврдат дека ние не претставуваме никаков стратегиски интерес ни за Вашингтон, ни за Брисел! Ако продолжиме вака, сигурно дека ниту сме, ниту ќе бидеме.

9. Без да се преценуваме и не негирајќи го нашиот нагласен интерес за членство во НАТО, треба да тропнеме на маса и да кажеме дека уцени не прифаќаме. Ако немаме кураж за такво нешто - со право (ќе) нe' онадат.

10. Не треба да се заборава дека ниту САД, ниту НАТО, ниту ЕУ немаат никакви „светли точки“ веќе подолго време. Поминува половина од мандатот на Обама - без (некаков) успех. Светска економска криза, Авганистан и Ирак во хаос, еврото под прашање, БиХ... Единствена шанса со нешто да се пофалат, како изгледа, сите гледаат во можноста да се реши нашиов проблем. Би биле среќни ако не се обидуваа тоа да го постигнат со жртвување на Македонците.

Дали ќе успееме да ги спречиме, зависи пред сe' од нас.

Risto Nikovski

http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=107101533565&id=13&prilog=0&setIzdanie=22103

Google translate:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pl&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnovamakedonija.com.mk%2FNewsDetal.asp%3Fvest%3D107101533565%26id%3D13%26prilog%3D0%26setIzdanie%3D22103

[Bratot]

"Nobody would like to become someone else, even if that 'someone' would have all the goods (because God already has all goods) but wants to remain what it is" (Aristotle, "Ethics Nikomacha") .

http://ethics.sandiego.edu/theories/Aristotle/index.asp

If none living soul wants to become a God to possess all the goods in this world, but wants to remain what it is, why the Macedonians would like to become someone else, to become a member of the European Union?

The purpose of each policy is to achieve bliss (happiness) of its own citizens, and this is achieved with ethics or with natural and reasonable virtues. The highest ethics of Aristotle (according to Spinoza, Cicero and others) says it is NOT ethical for someone to destroy you, so it is even less ethical to destroy yourself.

[Bratot]

According to the suggestion of Popeski, Macedonia to sue Greece at the European Court of Human Rights, for violating the right of identity, protected by Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The decision of the European Court of Human Rights is binding.
In case of success, Greece must respect it, because otherwise it will be excluded from the Council of Europe.

In the sixties of last century, Greece has been already excluded from the Council of Europe and has been the only excluded member of the Council of Europe.

This entails repercussions in the European Union as well because it is inconceivable that a country is an EU member, and is excluded from the Council of Europe. In a situation when Greece is already threaten with sanctions from the EU, and some already suggested its exclusion, Greece can not afford the procedure under the European Court of Human Rights.

[Bratot]

Those who doubts that the name change is not a change of identity should be reminded of Aristotles, more precisely about the first Law of Identity:

In logic, the law of identity states that an object is the same as itself: A ≡ A.

Any reflexive relation upholds the law of identity. When discussing equality, the fact that "A is A" is a tautology.

That everything is necessarily the same with itself and different from another” is the self-evident first principle of linguistics, for it governs the designation or 'identification' of individual concepts within any symbolic language, so as to avoid ambiguity in the communicating of concepts between the users of that language. Such a principle is necessary because a ‘symbolic designator’ (name, word, sign, etc.) has no inherent meaning of its own, but derives its meaning from a cognizant agent who correlates the given designator with a conventionally prescribed concept that has been previously learned and stored in their memory.

African Spir proclaims the principle of identity (or law of identity A ≡ A) as the fundamental law of knowledge, which is opposed to the changing appearance of the empirical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_identity

Everything which is not logical sinks.
Our failure to comply with Aristotle, we shall perish.

The A must be " = " to A

therefore we can NOT be Vardar Macedonia or any other name instead of Macedonia!

(VM =/= M)

That's why we can NOT allow any compromise on the name since the compromise itself is illogical.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot
You are right we need to deconstruct all their propoganda, and then start some of our own!

I believe it is more sinister than propaganda. It is actually an agenda for the annihilation of the Macedonian identity. For what purpose continues to amaze and confound me.

[makedonche]

Pay attention on this dangerous rethoric:

"... Fourth, the long term failure to find a renaming solution..."

to imply that if we don't find a solution through RENAMING ... We can not find a solution at all!

This dangerous rethoric has to be condemned on every possible way, we have to deconstruct all of their propaganda claims leaving nothing to the case.

Bratot
You are right we need to deconstruct all their propoganda, and then start some of our own! The best form of defence is attack!

[Bratot]

Pay attention on this dangerous rethoric:

"... Fourth, the long term failure to find a renaming solution..."

to imply that if we don't find a solution through RENAMING ... We can not find a solution at all!

This dangerous rethoric has to be condemned on every possible way, we have to deconstruct all of their propaganda claims leaving nothing to the case.

[George S.]

Typical greek sponsored propaganda.There are so many inaccuracies one does not know where to start.But one thing i totally disagree with that ROM is a threat to greece.This is so grossly wrong you would have to be stupid to belive such propaganda.Macedonia is no threat to anyone even greece who is ten times bigger than macedonia.Other statementts are totally out of order as he responds mainly to what they want to hear.

[Bratot]

With the help of Mango we found about another marginalized "opinion maker" - JANUSZ BUGAJSKI who based his 'career' on his Anti-Russian articles.



It seem he got frustrated because nobody cares about his opinion on Russia, so he tries to make a "come back" with serving the Greek propaganda about Macedonia.

He is working in the "Center for Strategic and International Studies":



is another lobbying agency to deliver ordered opinions.

Lets recognize the well known "arguments" of the Greek propaganda machinery:

1.

2.


This fool have even found a space to repeat his anti-Russian frustration in between his ordered propaganda on the bottom of this page.

3.

http://csis.org/files/publication/100917_Bugajski_WesternBalkans_WEB.pdf

The MARKERS of the well known Greek propaganda:

1. Slavic Macedonian - using the "Slavic" component to determine another identity for Macedonians
2. Albanian threat - as a tool to intimidate Macedonian stability and future with some violent scenario
3. Claiming the Greek exclusivity on the ancient Macedonian history
4. Territorial claims - as the biggest Greek fear
5. Geographycal name as suggestions for the name of Macedonia - 100% in hand with the Greek demands
6. Recognizing the Macedonian identity as "Slavic Macedonian" instead of Macedonian which clearly serve the purpose to eradicate Macedonian ethnic identity.
7. The economical stagnation - of course the solution to secure the progress by selling our name.


This fool openly advocate for Greece, so far that he uses the economical bankrupcy of Greece as an argument why the pressure on Athens should not be a option in these difficult times for their Government!

Only for further confirmation of this report being produced according the Greek standards:

" The Lavrentis Lavrentiadis Chair in Southeast European Studies, established at CSIS in early 2009, serves a leading role in advancing the international policy discourse at CSIS and among its external constituencies in Washington, D.C., including the executive and legislative branches of the U.S. government and the U.S. policy, academic, NGO, and business communities.

The Chair has been made possible by the generous support of Greek entrepreneur, Lavrentis Lavrentiadis.

The CSIS Lavrentis Lavrentiadis Chair in Southeast European Studies:
■Strengthens U.S.-Southeast European relations by providing the Washington community with a greater understanding of the region.
■Enhances the scope and impact of the CSIS New European Democracies/Europe programs.
■Educates the Washington policymaking and European diplomatic community on issues impacting the region through a range of public events and publications.
■Generates recommendations for U.S. policy toward the Southeast European region.

Janusz Bugajski serves as the inaugural chair holder. Bugajski has extensive knowledge of the challenges and opportunities facing individual states and the region as a whole, and is one of the foremost Balkan analysts in Washington. "

http://csis.org/program/lavrentiadis-chair

In May 2009, he initiated the Lavrentis Lavrentiadis Chair in Southeast European Studies at CSIS. This extraordinary commitment will ensure that CSIS strengthens its role in the region.

http://csis.org/programs/lavrentis-lavrentiadis-chair-southeast-european-studies/about-chair-founder

The report was directly sponsored by this Greek pharmaceutical and media magnate!

[Bratot]

Did i say that?

I have said "Slavic migration marked a great change to the northern part of Macedonia."


The obvious result was that you speak a Slavic language and you have different customs.

You particularly made that distinction in order to present the supposed 'change' only in the northern part of Macedonia.

In the most eastern part of Asia, and a bigger part of it populated with a totally different race speaks the Slavic language without any greater Slavic migration.

South Americans speak Spanish or Portuguesse without any greater Spanish or Portuguesse migration.

What does these 2 examples serve?

What customs have been changed exactly? Since you are the ethnologist it shouldn't be a problem to define it.

I can number a few that actually prove the oppossite, the cultural continuity of Macedonians.

Let's compare us with other European states.

So the Slavic migration really did happen?

It happened, but in opposite direction.

Those people that you call "Slavs" have been anthropologically traced as indigenous population in Balkans.

[Risto the Great]

Did i say that?

I have said "Slavic migration marked a great change to the northern part of Macedonia."


The obvious result was that you speak a Slavic language and you have different customs.

Ha ha, excellent stuff FF. And all the Slavic toponyms in Southern Greece fell out of the sky? Anything else they taught you at stalag 13?

[freifrau]

Do you want to say there wasn't supposed "Slavic migration" to the southern part of Macedonia?

Let me guess, they stopped exactly on the modern state border between R. of Macedonia and Greece?

.

Did i say that?

I have said "Slavic migration marked a great change to the northern part of Macedonia."


The obvious result was that you speak a Slavic language and you have different customs.