Why is there no proactivity from the Macedonians in the Republic, Aegean and Pirin?

[Jankovska]

Bill, What arms? They had no hope, they had the backing of USA and the EU.

They dont have the same backing in Greece, like i said before Janko Bachev who was in DBK at the time said our people had intelligence where they were. They were sitting ducks, we saw what happened in Arachinovo and Radusha.

The Albanians will get rights in Greece soon, trust me. They will have rights everywhere on the Balkan. I wonder about the egejci.

[Bill77]

The Catalans in Spain did not take up arms but they managed to be recognized as a separate nation. The Flamands, the Welsh and so many others have their rights without any war or revolution.

Good for them. Macedonians from ROM also gain indapendance with out a shot being fired or a life loss.

But i was answering to how the Albanians got there rights in the Balkans. Do you disagree and think it was through dialog or any other peaceful means?

[Bill77]

Bill, What arms? They had no hope, they had the backing of USA and the EU.

They dont have the same backing in Greece, like i said before Janko Bachev who was in DBK at the time said our people had intelligence where they were. They were sitting ducks, we saw what happened in Arachinovo and Radusha.

What arms???????? OK the Macedonians that died shot each other.

Would the US and EU givan a shit if there was no violence?

[Prolet]

The Albanians will get rights in Greece soon, trust me. They will have rights everywhere on the Balkan. I wonder about the egejci.

Jankovska, How can you be so sure of this?? Im not convinced unless Greece really shoots itself in the foot, i cant see that happening anytime soon. But anything is possible i cant say you are wrong with making that statement.

On the contrary what about our people in Pirinska Makedonija? Where is their Human Rights?

[Prolet]

What arms???????? OK the Macedonians that died shot each other.

Would the US and EU givan a shit if there was no violence?

Bill, Our forces were betrayed you know this, why is Johan Tarculovski in the Hague as we speak? Why did they impose no fly zones over Skopska Crna Gora when we blasted the shit out of them? Who transported the Terrorists out of Arachinovo along with the Foreign Trainers?? If they didnt have the backing from the West, we would have flushed them out like rats.

[Bill77]

Nobody is talking about independent state, but about rights for a indigenous people which are much more than those of a minority.

Your indigenous is diferant to the Greek Gov view on who is Indigenous. Untill the Greek view changes, you will be pushing up hill. Simply teaching them to read Macedonian, will not do. How about you teach them the atrocities Greeks caused against our people. I can send you some photos of reality.

Look at what the Armenians are doing now against the Turks. The US gov have passed or close to passing a resolution to label what the Turks did to the Armenians as Genocide. Nows the time for you egejci to follow and speak up and take action.

[Daskalot]

Jankovska, How can you be so sure of this?? Im not convinced unless Greece really shoots itself in the foot, i cant see that happening anytime soon. But anything is possible i cant say you are wrong with making that statement.

On the contrary what about our people in Pirinska Makedonija? Where is their Human Rights?

They will not get any human rights until they will be the focus of international media. Until then they do not exist in Bulgaria or Greece.

[Bill77]

Bill, Our forces were betrayed you know this, why is Johan Tarculovski in the Hague as we speak? Why did they impose no fly zones over Skopska Crna Gora when we blasted the shit out of them? Who transported the Terrorists out of Arachinovo along with the Foreign Trainers?? If they didnt have the backing from the West, we would have flushed them out like rats.

Hang on, you asked what arms?????? now you say we had terrorists. Were these Terrorists not armed? And i ask you again, Whould the US and EU cared if these terrorists did not take up arms?

[Prolet]

Bill, The resolution passed by a vote of 23 to 22 however the Obama Administration is going to Veto it because Turkey recalled its Ambassador. Kaj shto ima sila nema pravdina, the Americans control alot of the Muslim world via Turkey and without it they loose a key ally.

Its all about national interests, America doesnt care about Armenia at all it would hurt them far more if they damage their relations with Turkey. Turkey is the only Nato country that borders with Iraq, where the Americans are currently fighting a war and Afghanistan is not so far away either.

If the Americans had interests in us, they would order the Greeks to recognize us or threaten them with sanctions or bomb the shit out of them like they did to Serbia and Iraq in the early 90s but they simply dont care.

[Prolet]

Hang on, you asked what arms?????? now you say we had terrorists. Were these Terrorists not armed? And i ask you again, Whould the US and EU cared if these terrorists did not take up arms?

They were bandits nothing more, yes they where armed but ask yourself these questions:

Who armed them and Who gave them the go ahead to start a war?

Now they wouldnt have cared at all, however the US and the EU were the ones who armed them,gave them weapons, gave them the go ahead to start a war. Its not like they decided to pick up weapons and fight for human rights and the West happened to say lets join in and help them, it was a well planned effort. Nothing happens without a reason in the Balkans.

[Jankovska]

Jankovska, How can you be so sure of this?? Im not convinced unless Greece really shoots itself in the foot, i cant see that happening anytime soon. But anything is possible i cant say you are wrong with making that statement.

On the contrary what about our people in Pirinska Makedonija? Where is their Human Rights?

They will because they can. The Greeks are at blame for everything they did to the Egejci and I hope to God they pay for it big time. At the moment tho I blame the Egejci more than I blame the greeks. Nasle ovci ke si strizat.
Prolet don't ask me another question when we haven't sorted this one out. Stop doing it. Have we finished talking about the egejci? No.
As for the Pirinci start a topic and we'll chat.

[Bill77]

They were bandits nothing more, yes they where armed but ask yourself these questions:

Who armed them and Who gave them the go ahead to start a war?

Now they wouldnt have cared at all, however the US and the EU were the ones who armed them,gave them weapons, gave them the go ahead to start a war. Its not like they decided to pick up weapons and fight for human rights and the West happened to say lets join in and help them, it was a well planned effort. Nothing happens without a reason in the Balkans.

I never questioned who armed them. I was making a point that Albanians took up arms, to get as far as they did while you questioned what arms.

[vodenka]

They were bandits nothing more, yes they where armed but ask yourself these questions:

Who armed them and Who gave them the go ahead to start a war?

Now they wouldnt have cared at all, however the US and the EU were the ones who armed them,gave them weapons, gave them the go ahead to start a war. Its not like they decided to pick up weapons and fight for human rights and the West happened to say lets join in and help them, it was a well planned effort. Nothing happens without a reason in the Balkans.

This all is true but you forget that the Serbs started "cleaning" Kosovo and that was a huge mistake by their part. The same could have happened in 2001 with the Georgievski government, or, at least, is what the US and EU got as a message by Macedonian government back then.

[fyrOM]

Bill77 you already know the Balkans is not a far place. Not all things are equal. The Albanians didn’t take up arms on their own. To put it in simple terms its like watching one little kid start a fight with another little kid and then telling a third see that’s how its done. Not in the Balkans. You need to realise the little kid who started the fight did so with 2 or 3 big friends standing behind encouraging him with the knowledge that if the fight goes bad the big friends will jump in to save the kid and if necessary beat up the kid who got picked on. As you would know at the end the Macedonians were order to stop shooting or the usa and eu would bomb Macedonia. If the Albanians didn’t have this support they would never have started. They were a pawn to stick a civija in the Macedonian government. Then you had some saying hurry up with the name issue so we can get in the eu. They soon realised not to say it too loudly because the government can be threatened to hold back but the people wont. I have a relative who was involved in the conflict and he was saying you cannot imagine what it feels like to have someone shooting at you from a distance and you are ordered to keep your head down and not shoot back. There wont be a next time because the Albanians know it will be odkornuvajne by the people. In prilep I heard people saying they would firebomb a neighbours house with them in it if they heard the neighbour was going to sell the house to an Albanian. Using the Albanians experience is not a far example.

Jankovska is right in saying the egejci need to do things themselves. Not meaning alone but they are the ones on the ground and if anyone is going to protest they need to be doing it. The Daskalot is right in saying, “They will not get any human rights until they become the focus of the international media. Until then ( its as if ) they do not exist…”. the problem is who’s going to do the protest if it means possible violence against them or even a loss of employment particularly in light of the economic hardships coming to Greece even though with the focus on Greece now would probably be the best time as far as coverage. This would need to be backed up by the diaspora also protesting in their respective countries. Vodenka is right in saying it doesn’t have to be with arms but the sad reality is that some noses may be bloodied. I doubt many of the Greek thugs would do as much if they didn’t have government impunity. The international focus now may curtail this but also the diaspora need to jump into this to make the shouts louder. As well as the law suit Prolet mentioned or maybe part of it whichever is legally better the Macedonian human rights organisations need to weigh in further. Will it get the egejci independence - no. but can they push for similar rights as the Albanians in Macedonia. The bottom line is the egejci need to be seen as leading the cause with others supporting them. The Macedonian government cannot be seen as pushing this -the good neighbours thing as part of the eu process.

[Prolet]

They will because they can. The Greeks are at blame for everything they did to the Egejci and I hope to God they pay for it big time. At the moment tho I blame the Egejci more than I blame the greeks. Nasle ovci ke si strizat.
Prolet don't ask me another question when we haven't sorted this one out. Stop doing it. Have we finished talking about the egejci? No.
As for the Pirinci start a topic and we'll chat.

Jankovska, I liked you alot better when you were nicer.

Now i agree with you that the people of Egejska Makedonija should be doing more, but the first step here is education, keep in mind that they were brainwashed for decades its not something you can change over night it takes time and this is where Vodenka can help out alot. I think we need to take her advise because she is there on the ground and she can see the people and their mentality, with education people will learn who they are,where they came from and who their predci were and the more they visit Macedonia the easier it gets for them to find the answers to their questions.

We can always talk about the Egejci here, but why cant we add the Pirinci in too?? They are being oppressed too remember? The whole point here is human rights and what happens in Egej should happen in Pirin aswell you cant have one and not the other. Its like a mother having to choose between her two children, it doesnt work that way. Site prsti isto bolat.