Macedonians and their 'slave' names, time to change?

[Brian]

As you stated, our ancestors fought against this kind of oppression, so to label them as 'slaves' is not only spitting on their attempts to liberate Macedonia, but also portraying them as a group of people who obeyed all orders from the Greeks...this is entirely false.

Precisely my point! The old people died for freedom and today's 4th, 5th, and sometimes 6th generation, in the safety of the diaspora, want to cling to the legacy of their predecessors murderers - WTF? Isn't that the ultimate 'spit in your face' to your predecessors?

Also regarding the church, the traditions of the Egejci have since been fading, as many follow the main process of the MOC from what I've heard. Not sure to the extent where this is true, but it also shows that many expect Egejci to conform to the traditions and customs of Macedonians from the Vardar region.

As apposed to which other Macedonian Church tradition - the Greek ones they grew-up with? Religion is a personal choice, so I really don't care (but let's try and call a spade a spade?), but it's funny how you mention it as Macedonian Church traditions Vs Vardar's Macedonian Church traditions.

Brian, you cannot exclude emotions from this debate, it is something which affects all of us and cannot be ignored.

I know what you mean, EM - even these days the old people still get emotional and talk about the 'good-old-days' when everyone had Serbian names. We young ones try to comfort them by playing Serbian records most of the day lest they fall into slobbering emotional heaps. Must be like your 'old people'.

Now re-read the reply to the first quote.

Touching back on the business point, you think the owner of a well established business may be worried that altering an important aspect of their business may act as a catalyst to their downfall?

Read my post about businesses. Most people would not be affected, so what's there excuse - emotional attachment BS? See first quote again.

Brian, I think you need to brush up on your history regarding the Egejci. If you had half a clue what happened, then you might begin to understand that years upon years of emotional turmoil can break down an individual and make them believe things that go against the truth. Precisely why we have so many grkomani today.

Are you saying the 'Southern State of Delusion' actually makes people delusional??? Glad I've never been there.

Egej is still occupied by Greece, therefore the circumstances are entirely different, and a comparison is irrelevant to this debate. We may be away from our oppressors, but many of us still have relatives in the Aegean, so we aren't entirely free from our oppressors.

Many of the Macedonians from the Aegean left for the West a long time ago, and now there are 4th, 5th, and sometimes 6th generations in the diaspora. Does you statement include them? I don't think the Greeks are going to bash some Macedonian in Greece if their 3rd, 4th, or more cousin changed his name in the West. Maybe one of our Greek members can tell us if this happens. You might be a 'recent' arrival, but most others I have seen at least their great-grand-dad's time.

Stop being an ignorant clown and realise that this issue goes beyond your one-dimensional thinking.

Nahh...my logic is extremely well - it's emotions (for BS) I'm poor in and lacking.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you know why this is so, that mostly in Eastern Macedonia they have retained those suffixes?

Good question. Not entirely sure to be honest. They may have found a more solid footing among eastern Macedonians after the trend began due to their proximity to Russian and later Exarchate influence (keep in mind that prior to the creation of Bulgaria, a number of its people were using -ich surnames, following the lead of the Serbs, who themselves had also looked towards the Russians). That is not to say they wouldn't have used them were it not the case, because such simple patronyms make natural surnames in the Macedonian language. In the west, the people probably didn't feel an overwhelming bond to those suffixes, which is why most opted for the -ski suffix after WWII. Another reason was to be as distinct as possible from Serbian and Bulgarian surnames, which in some ways was a misconception because neither Serbs or Bulgars have a monopoly on surnames that end in -ich, -ev or -ov, all of which are common in various Slavic languages.

Even though all of the suffixes mentioned may have been used in some formal manner at one time or another in the Balkans, it is most likely Russian influence that initially inspired the people to adopt them in a consistent fashion from around the 19th century.

[Risto the Great]

Instead of answering my points you have put up one type of example which does not exactly 'fit the mould'.

I was specifically addressing your assessment of goodwill. Nothing else. Perhaps you can become a business broker. Particularly for businesses my clients are interested in. You appear to place very little value on silly things like business names.

I'm not arguing against a name change, I think such a move presents far more benefits than any negatives which may arise. What I'm trying to convey, is that a range of obstacles exist and such a decision cannot be made without the appropriate consideration. Call it what you want, but the term 'slave' is an overstatement and offensive to say the least. Imposed is far more appropriate, as it explains the nature to which the name came about, as well as respecting the fact that these people are still proud Macedonians. Calling them slaves only succeeds in degrading these people and making them feel unworthy. As you stated, our ancestors fought against this kind of oppression, so to label them as 'slaves' is not only spitting on their attempts to liberate Macedonia, but also portraying them as a group of people who obeyed all orders from the Greeks...this is entirely false.

Well I don't really care what they might think, I'm not trying to conform to anyone's standards. I don't require everything that may hypothetically define one as Macedonian to identify and call myself Macedonian.

EM, you have suggested previously this is a personal decision that each person must make and is based on the personal factors that are influencing this decision. Well, by insisting I should not call it a slave name, you are devaluing my "personal decision" on the matter. If I am to show respect to your decision, then you will have to show respect for mine. For me, it is a slave name. Why would I call Macedonians with Greek sounding surnames slaves? It suggests I was a slave for my first 18 years of my life. No, it is a slave name and stems from a slave mindset. It is all consistent with the affairs of the oppressed. I don't believe you are a slave.

I respect your decision to call it an "imposed name". It obviously is imposed. But when I am free from the clutches of the evil Greeks and living in a brand new country far away from that hell-hole ... perpetuating that "imposed name" sounds ridiculous and in fact appears to be nothing more than perpetuating a slave-like mindset.

Any conclusions you make about your slave name will be based on a number of matters. But continuing with your slave name will mean you rate "justice" and the notion of "fundamental human rights" quite low in your thought processes.

I was at my Dedo and Baba's place today, and he was speaking to a relative about how our entire family is under the one name, which i think was the name of one of my great-great grandpa's, although I'm not too sure. Just out of curiousity, when altering the name, is it correct to keep the current name and change the suffix, or adopt this broad family name which our family has been recognised by for generations. Which is our real name?

An interesting question. I would be inclined to favour the broad family name. But accept that reverting to your Macedonian version of your present name may help connect you to your previous identity. My broad family name was the foundation for my "slave" name so my decision was less complicated. I would ask your grandfather which name he would choose if he was free to choose. Then I would weigh it with what you believe would be appropriate if you were free to choose. Both Macedonian names are valid in my opinion. (I'd probably also ask if you are "free")

[Bill77]

I've already posted this elsewhere, but their is a point to make on this thread aswell.

Greece bans Macedonians with foreign Passports
Friday, 25 November 2011

Days ahead of the Hague decision, Macedonia's southern neighbor has upped the ante when it comes to Macedonians with foreign passports whose place of birth is Macedonia.

Athens has informed the Macedonian ministry (?) they will no longer be allowed to enter Greece. These are usually US, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand passport holders.

Although the explanation from offiicial Athens is they don't like to see the name Macedonia as the place of birth, many of these Macedonians hail from the Aegean part hence Athens views them as a 'threat' to their national sovereignty.

Macedonian passport holders for instance have no trouble entering Greece.
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/19666/1/

Regarding blockade of entry for those changing their imposed Greek name, here we see keeping the imposed name, does not guarantee you entry. It can not longer be used to justify reasons for not reverting to original name.

What are Greece afraid of? Greece keeps on treating egejci like they are a inferior race. What next? a law where egejci have to sit at the back of buss's?

[ProMKD]

Do you know why this is so, that mostly in Eastern Macedonia they have retained those suffixes?

Maybe the same reason why 100,000 of them have bulgarian passports? They don't care enough, that's why

[Soldier of Macedon]

Maybe the same reason why 100,000 of them have bulgarian passports? They don't care enough, that's why

That's an incorrect comparison ProMKD, and furthermore, divisive. Think a little more before you make such comments, because I can assure you that several of your ancestors had surnames that ended in -ev and -ov well before Bulgaria was created by Russia. Those suffixes are a part of our language, just like they are a part of other Slavic languages. By saying what you did above you are justifying Bulgarian propaganda.

[ProMKD]

That's an incorrect comparison ProMKD, and furthermore, divisive. Think a little more before you make such comments, because I can assure you that several of your ancestors had surnames that ended in -ev and -ov well before Bulgaria was created by Russia. Those suffixes are a part of our language, just like they are a part of other Slavic languages. By saying what you did above you are justifying Bulgarian propaganda.

To be honest, I didn't even think of any real possibility why the ov and ev suffixes are used, I really just wanted to make a comment on the accepting of bulgarian propaganda by people all over Macedonia, but especially the Eastern region.

So scratch that comment from the record. (don't delete it)

[Risto the Great]

What are Greece afraid of? Greece keeps on treating egejci like they are a inferior race. What next? a law where egejci have to sit at the back of buss's?

There has been legislatively backed negative discrimination towards Macedonians since the 1920's. Your suggestion above sounds "nice" in comparison to what those pigs in government did to Macedonians.

[Phoenix]

There has been legislatively backed negative discrimination towards Macedonians since the 1920's. Your suggestion above sounds "nice" in comparison to what those pigs in government did to Macedonians.

Good point.

There's something particularly evil and insanely barbaric about denying a man his identity...it makes a reserved seat at the back of the bus quite a VIP journey in comparison.

[Po-drum]

To be honest, I didn't even think of any real possibility why the ov and ev suffixes are used, I really just wanted to make a comment on the accepting of bulgarian propaganda by people all over Macedonia, but especially the Eastern region.

Not all of Eastern Macedonia have retained -ev/ov.
In fact when you speak about Eastern Macedonia you have to know that -ov/ev suffixes are present predominantly in valley's areas where there was easier way for establishment of different influences. In contrary of that surnames with -ski suffix are more often seen in the mountainous, rural areas where this suffix has been used in everyday speech with function of describing family origin.
Part of those surnames in -ov/ev are present there even before establishment of bulgarian propaganda and they are not relevant proof of accepting bulgarian propagandist view. I could say bulgarian propaganda is accepted in Eastern Macedonia even in lesser extent than it's in Ohrid, Struga, Bitola or some other Western Macedonia's city where you can only rarely find surnames with -ov/ev.

Maybe the same reason why 100,000 of them have bulgarian passports? They don't care enough, that's why

The only reason why Macedonians from Eastern Macedonia don't hesitate too much when they have to take bulgarian passports is because they must do that. Because they were forgotten from their state for the last 50 years. Eastern Macedonia looks like desert in every aspect of life, and even today the economic conditions there, are below the state average.

[ProMKD]

The only reason why Macedonians from Eastern Macedonia don't hesitate too much when they have to take bulgarian passports is because they must do that. Because they were forgotten from their state for the last 50 years. Eastern Macedonia looks like desert in every aspect of life, and even today the economic conditions there, are below the state average.

Nobody has to accept bulgarian propaganda. When my grandfather didn't have money, he didn't sign his soul over to the devil. He picked up a motika and worked the fields until his hands were going to fall off. He provided for his family.

He didn't purchase a bulgarian passport so that he can buy a cheap stolen Mercedes with Plovdiv license plates and parade around Strumica like he's some hot-shot, while still living with his parents.

It wouldn't be far from the truth to say that MANY or most of the people who took bulgarian passports have done nothing with them to better their economic situation. Many choose it to "have freedom of travel" or like I said, to drive cheap stolen cars.

Please don't ever make excuses for such dushman choices that people make. If you want to discuss how the government has ignored Eastern Macedonia, we can, and we will agree, but nobody forces people to get bulgarian passports.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The only reason why Macedonians from Eastern Macedonia don't hesitate too much when they have to take bulgarian passports is because they must do that.

No, they didn't have to. They chose to. There is a difference.

Because they were forgotten from their state for the last 50 years. Eastern Macedonia looks like desert in every aspect of life, and even today the economic conditions there, are below the state average.

Do you think Bitola or Prilep are any better than Strumica in terms of economic development? It's the same in most places where Macedonians live because of these DPNE and SDS idiot politicians. That is still no excuse for any Macedonian to agree to sign a piece of paper saying they are 'Bulgarian' just so they can 'escape' the country and give racist politicians from Bulgaria an excuse to 'count' them on to their tally.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Which traditions have faded and how do they differ from those of the MOC?

I'm going to tread lightly here, since it isn't an area I know much about, however that is simply what I hear. It seems a reasonable thought too, provided that (correct me if I'm wrong) Vladika Petar wanted control of all the Macedonian churches here, which I'd assume would then follow the practices of the mainstream MOC. Perhaps the impact has been minimal in terms of traditions, but it may exist. Similarly, differing dialects, dances, etc may be lost over the years due to other influences. Some inevitably natural, some forced.

Precisely my point! The old people died for freedom and today's 4th, 5th, and sometimes 6th generation, in the safety of the diaspora, want to cling to the legacy of their predecessors murderers - WTF? Isn't that the ultimate 'spit in your face' to your predecessors?

Many of these old people were the ones who the name was imposed upon. Many of them emigrated to foreign lands and kept the name. Stop trying to throw everyone into the same basket. They also fought to liberate Macedonia, so by your logic, if the 4th, 5th and 6th generation Macedonians in the diaspora don't go back to Egej and take up arms, they are spitting in the faces of their predecessors? Realise how stupid it sounds when a different example is used, when applying your logic?

As apposed to which other Macedonian Church tradition - the Greek ones they grew-up with? Religion is a personal choice, so I really don't care (but let's try and call a spade a spade?), but it's funny how you mention it as Macedonian Church traditions Vs Vardar's Macedonian Church traditions.

How is it funny, traditions differ not only from region to region, but even from village to village. Most villages in the Lerin region have a different dress code, different dances and even different words. If traditions contrast from village to village, you don't think they may be a little different from Vardar or even Pirin?

No, not the Greek ones they grew up with, if you didn't notice, Egejci kept many of their ancestral traditions despite the Greek occupation. Even the Greek church traditions are similar to the Macedonian church, since both are Orthodox. That's not to say that there are differences as well.

I know what you mean, EM - even these days the old people still get emotional and talk about the 'good-old-days' when everyone had Serbian names. We young ones try to comfort them by playing Serbian records most of the day lest they fall into slobbering emotional heaps. Must be like your 'old people'.

By emotional I'm referring to their mental state. No matter how much you take the piss, you can't ignore such a sensitive and crucial factor in this debate.

Read my post about businesses. Most people would not be affected, so what's there excuse - emotional attachment BS? See first quote again.

Let's put that aside for the time-being and focus on those who are affected by this reason. Discuss.

Are you saying the 'Southern State of Delusion' actually makes people delusional??? Glad I've never been there.

Well maybe you should go there before you begin to talk so confidently. I think you underestimate the potential of ongoing forceful propaganda and its affect on the human mind.

Many of the Macedonians from the Aegean left for the West a long time ago, and now there are 4th, 5th, and sometimes 6th generations in the diaspora. Does you statement include them? I don't think the Greeks are going to bash some Macedonian in Greece if their 3rd, 4th, or more cousin changed his name in the West. Maybe one of our Greek members can tell us if this happens. You might be a 'recent' arrival, but most others I have seen at least their great-grand-dad's time.

I wouldn't put anything beyond the Greek authorities, taking into consideration what they have done in both recent and distant history. In the west, there are laws in place to prevent discrimination in areas such a job interviews. I assume similar laws (hopefully) would exist in Greece. Someone can discriminate all they want, provided they don't actually express their views. The consequences may be in a 'subtle' form for Egejci. Although, I think if distant relatives altered their names or future generations, the implications would be far less than if say a brother or sister did so. Either way, doesn't that also link back into the debate in regards to who the responsibility to alter the name back rests with? It is ultimately everyone's responsibility, however I think the onus should be with those who physically had the name imposed on them. These people also make up part of those who fought for Macedonia.

Nahh...my logic is extremely well - it's emotions (for BS) I'm poor in and lacking.

Emotions are vital in most situations. As i mentioned earlier, sometimes they cloud our judgement, however often they also provide further insight into sensitive debates such as this. I don't think you lack them, I just think you have no idea how to use them in this particular argument, since you evidently have no clue.

EM, you have suggested previously this is a personal decision that each person must make and is based on the personal factors that are influencing this decision. Well, by insisting I should not call it a slave name, you are devaluing my "personal decision" on the matter. If I am to show respect to your decision, then you will have to show respect for mine. For me, it is a slave name. Why would I call Macedonians with Greek sounding surnames slaves? It suggests I was a slave for my first 18 years of my life. No, it is a slave name and stems from a slave mindset. It is all consistent with the affairs of the oppressed. I don't believe you are a slave.

It certainly is personal decision Risto, and I respect that.
Not really...by insisting not to call it a 'slave name,' I'm protecting others from being labeled such a term against their will. You can call it whatever you want, but don't use the term on behalf of everyone else. It is one thing to express your opinion, and another to imply that we are all under the same umbrella. My personal view is that by referring to these names as 'slave names,' and the mentality as a 'slave mentality,' you are implying that the people who hold these traits are essentially 'slaves.' It's like saying that someone has an inability to show compassion and has an aggressive mentality, but instead of calling them a prick or ignorant, we walk around the blunt words. To me, that is what this 'slave' labeling implies. If you think otherwise, that is perfectly fine, but surely people here can't then turn around and accuse others for arguing against such name-calling.

I respect your decision to call it an "imposed name". It obviously is imposed. But when I am free from the clutches of the evil Greeks and living in a brand new country far away from that hell-hole ... perpetuating that "imposed name" sounds ridiculous and in fact appears to be nothing more than perpetuating a slave-like mindset.

That's probably one of the differences here, you were born there, I wasn't. That may contribute to the particular name we use for these imposed names, yet there would also be people in both boats who see things through another spectrum. We used the word 'imposed' for the new flag, so I don't see why it is ridiculous in this scenario. If anything, imposed is self-explanatory and makes far more sense than going around and calling it a 'slave' name.

Any conclusions you make about your slave name will be based on a number of matters. But continuing with your slave name will mean you rate "justice" and the notion of "fundamental human rights" quite low in your thought processes.

Justice will not be served until Greece admits the atrocities on their behalf against the ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Changing a name may bring justice to your family, but it may also be the catalyst for further injustice against relatives who still lives abroad. As others have suggested, if thousands of Egejci went to change their name back simultaneously, this would generate attention and be far more effective in obtaining justice, and a stepping stone for improved human rights in Greece. It's an interesting initiative that has a great deal of merit.

An interesting question. I would be inclined to favour the broad family name. But accept that reverting to your Macedonian version of your present name may help connect you to your previous identity. My broad family name was the foundation for my "slave" name so my decision was less complicated. I would ask your grandfather which name he would choose if he was free to choose. Then I would weigh it with what you believe would be appropriate if you were free to choose. Both Macedonian names are valid in my opinion. (I'd probably also ask if you are "free")

Good points. I'll have to do a little more research into this before I see which name poses the most relevance in terms of our family history and origins. Our current name seems quite unusual, even with a Macedonian suffix, prefix, etc. Our broad family name appears far more relevant, and perhaps well known in the region. I'd post them here, but it probably isn't the best idea to do so.

[Po-drum]

Nobody has to accept bulgarian propaganda.

Nobody has not accepted bulgarian propaganda.

He didn't purchase a bulgarian passport so that he can buy a cheap stolen Mercedes with Plovdiv license plates and parade around Strumica like he's some hot-shot, while still living with his parents.

Cars in the 21st century are not only used for parades. Cheap bulgarian cars were government's fault. The government was protecting monopoly position and economic interests of car dealers for almost 20 years. In that situation only small percent of macedonian citizens were able to buy new cars.

It wouldn't be far from the truth to say that MANY or most of the people who took bulgarian passports have done nothing with them to better their economic situation. Many choose it to "have freedom of travel" or like I said, to drive cheap stolen cars.

That is not truth. Just your wrong impression.
They are using it because of the possibility to find legal work with BG passports in the biggest part of EU countries. When you are reading this you have to have on mind that unemployment rate in Macedonia is above 30%.

No, they didn't have to.

Do you think Bitola or Prilep are any better than Strumica in terms of economic development? It's the same in most places where Macedonians live because of these DPNE and SDS idiot politicians. That is still no excuse for any Macedonian to agree to sign a piece of paper saying they are 'Bulgarian' just so they can 'escape' the country and give racist politicians from Bulgaria an excuse to 'count' them on to their tally.

When it is the only possibility for someone to go legally outside of RoM, I think, we could say they had to do that.
You /the guys from diaspora/ don't have right to tell those people where and under what conditions they should live their life.
The big question here is: - Why they decided to leave their country at any cost (even if that means to betray their personal beliefs of who they are)?
I would answer you: - They are completely disappointed by their country and don't have any expectation that the situation could ever be improved. They just don't want their child to live in insecurity and poverty, and you can't blame them for that.

[George S.]

someone should explain how were on the subject of bulgarian names if you go to bitola to request a birth certificate why are all the names more than likely changed to ov both my parents had ovski but my name had ov.I had to pay about $30 taxani marki at the sud to change it.Even then they mispelt my name.THere must be some bulgarofile at work.I suppose no one gives a damn & people can do anything & are not accountable.