Macedonians and their 'slave' names, time to change?

[Voltron]

they should be offended at the very fact that their surnames were forced upon their ancestors when Macedonia was enslaved by Greeks.

SOM, since most of you here consider yourselves more or less connected to Macedonians of antiquity. Would it be not more accurate to say that the surnames of today are infact a byproduct of the Slav incursion or presence in the Balkans ? Or are we to deduce that the Macedonians in their heyday were "slaves" since they themselves had Greek names ?

[Voltron]

On a separate matter, I was helping a Greek friend with some administrative matter relating to his father's estate. The local consulate said they needed 3 people to verify my friend was the son of his father and that they knew both the son and father. I gave the consulate a copy of my passport and a declaration as to the veracity of the relationship. My declaration was rejected because I was not Greek. I should add that my friend had all necessary documents prepared by his cousin in Athen who is a lawyer and was fully aware of all necessary procedures in matters such as this. The consulate was making up procedures as they were going.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you representing squatters Risto ?
The only time you would need villagers to recognise you is if you have land that is: A) either not registered but passed on through word of mouth. b) squatted on an x amount of time to claim title. In either cases you can bet there is next of kin lined up for the taking as well. Classic balkan drama.

Then regarding the birth legitimacy, there has to be birth certificates or if it really gets ugly paternal testing. And of course the obvious, its only common sense you would need a Greek national to testify. I dont think your name had anything to do with it. Greek Americans with only a US passport would probably be treated the same. Dont blame Greek beaucracy as something personal. We all have to go through that hell, and we live here.

[Bill77]

Nobody is calling them slaves, but their surnames are slave names.

Ive used the word "slave" myself. My intention was not to offend the name carrier, or make them feel less worthy being Macedonian. If anything, the word "slave" is intended to be detrimental towards past Greek policy.

People shouldn't be offended by others speaking the truth, they should be offended at the very fact that their surnames were forced upon their ancestors when Macedonia was enslaved by Greeks.

I agree. But if people still feel offended after this explanation, then i don't mind calling it something else if it would get a positive effect and eventual name reinstated.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, since most of you here consider yourselves more or less connected to Macedonians of antiquity. Would it be not more accurate to say that the surnames of today are infact a byproduct of the Slav incursion or presence in the Balkans ? Or are we to deduce that the Macedonians in their heyday were "slaves" since they themselves had Greek names ?

Ancient Greeks didn't enslave Macedonia and force the people to adopt slave names. Modern Greeks did. As for the language of the invaders from the 6th century, it was related to the Paleo-Balkan langauges, the linguistic shift resulted in the loss of the Indo-European suffixes -is and -os among other changes. Afterwards, the native language of the Macedonians no longer had a requirement for those suffixes. You can't justify the current slave names by using a silly and anachronistic argument like ancient Macedonians used to have names with such suffixes.

[Soldier of Macedon]

......if people still feel offended after this explanation, then i don't mind calling it something else if it would get a positive effect and eventual name reinstated.

I doubt that using another term that is equally as offensive but superficially 'softer' will have a positive effect. The truth is, they are slave names, I see no reason why we shouldn't call them exactly what they are. Like I said before, people should be offended at the fact that their ancestors had slave names imposed on them. And they should do something about it rather than complain about others who are merely highlighting the truth.

[Voltron]

Ancient Greeks didn't enslave Macedonia and force the people to adopt slave names. Modern Greeks did. As for the language of the invaders from the 6th century, it was related to the Paleo-Balkan langauges, the linguistic shift resulted in the loss of the Indo-European suffixes -is and -os among other changes. Afterwards, the native language of the Macedonians no longer had a requirement for those suffixes. You can't justify the current slave names by using a silly and anachronistic argument like ancient Macedonians used to have names with such suffixes.

Fair enough response.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, I don't think its misguided at all.
A name means everything to a persons identity. Just like the Name Macedonia and what it means to our identity as our ethnicity.
Or the "symbolism" of having a Greek sounding surname imposed is no different "symbolically" to having the ventilator imposed.

If we are to be true to our selves and our cause, it is a no brainer, to show acts of defiance and show self respect even at a measly cost of having complications acquiring land that many of todays generation would probably never see anyway. Regarding visiting rights......no nation (even Greece) as bad as they are, have power if you carry a Australian or American passport and citizenship.

EM with all due respect, these are irrelevant issues and i see them nothing but excuses. My family is split 50/50 with keeping the village "prekar" surname on arrival to Australia, and those changing it to something else for whatever reason. Their is no complication, division or any difficulty between us what so ever.

My point is this. We keep preaching "act of defiance" "self respect" (which i am not against that idea). But some "barat rachki" for Egejci but its not good enough for Vardarci. Making one victims, and the others as weak and traitorous. This is really what causes divisions.
To be honest, Egejci and Pirinci have more of a reason to rebel, show defiance. Yet for decades, all i hear from Egejci is, (what some call reasons) i call excuses. A slave mentality if you ask me, the same mentality accusations thrown at Vardarci. And.....i have heard that Egejci are perceived to be the torch bearers. Well mabe they are to blame for the Vardarci's slave mentality if they are the shining example and lead the way.

I will finish by saying, all sides of the borders have ideological issues. And its about time the finger gets pointed to one self.


PS: i am mixed Vardarec/Egejec more towards Egejec. its important to let you know this so you don't think i favour one side, and that i am just being real.

Bill, I'm not advocating that Egejci should keep their altered names, however it irritates me that some people here would belittle others based on their surname. It also annoys me how people say that the decision is a no-brainer and able to be made in a 'heart-beat.' Such a one-dimensional perspective fails to realise that this issue is more complex than altering a few letters in ones' name. The issues prevalent in the Republic are irrelevant, as Macedonians ultimately have the power to govern the future of their nation, whether they know it or not. When you are systematically oppressed by a foreign government, the scenario is entirely different. The ventilator was imposed by the Macedonian government, our altered names were imposed by the Greek government. Despite inviting obvious comparisons emerging from placing these two issues side by side, it is a poor stance to do so. There is a difference between your own people destroying your sovereignty and that of the enemy.

I may change the name once I am legally able to, or even down the road, but here is an interesting thought to think about. The name wasn't imposed on me, I was born in Australia and have carried the altered name all my life, it has become a part of my identity, whether I like it or not. Therefore, the decision in regards to showing self-respect and preserving your identity should rest with those who the name was imposed upon, i.e grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. They are the ones who had their names changed, and I think it is primarily their responsibility to nullify the imposition. As a result, regardless of whether young generation Australian Macedonians have an interest in property in the Aegean region, the complications for the oldies are far more substantial and thus any concerns in relation to this matter are further escalated.

The majority of my relatives still have the imposed name, so perhaps that is adding to my conservative view, however it also places me in a position to prove that not everyone is in the same boat. The transition process may be a cakewalk for some and difficult for others, we cannot assume that all Egejci are prepared or even readily able to change their name back.

The Egejci may be in a position to hold the torch, and the opportunity still awaits them, but let's not forget that this 'rebel' factor has been extinguished from the souls of many Egejci. It's a really sad thing to see, but I cannot entirely blame them. Visiting relatives overseas who have almost been completely 'hellenised' draws more sympathy than anything for me. These people have been brainwashed beyond belief, and are in no state of mind to act as an example to those within the Republic. To refrain from generalising however, there are still many Egejci who are aware and proud of their true identity and culture.

I'm aware of your Egej origins Bill and I respect your views, but I can't help but feel pissed off that people here would label these people as slaves. And for the others here (not you Bill), don't ask me 'Oh when did we call them slaves?' crap. By labeling their names as a slave name, you are implying they are slaves. I'm sorry that all we have accomplished under these names are a result of slaving away for our Greek masters. That's an outright insult if you ask me.


Let me ask everyone this. If a Macedonian woman, preferably with a surname ending in -ov or -ski, married a Greek man with a 'Greek sounding' surname, are they a 'slave' by identifying themselves by a name that is imposed and of Greek origin? Perhaps they should argue that the Greek name was imposed and opt to change it back? What you say of these people? Are they signing away their name and identity?
I acknowledge that this cannot be used as a direct comparison, however I raise the point in relation to a few of the recent posts I haven't quoted, in regards to married women changing their name.

EM
Very thought provokoing response! i'm not going to argue with you about any of what's been written but I would like to address one paragraph that stuck in my mind and also gave me the inspiration for a proposal that I would like to put to you and all MTO & all Macedonians.



For quite some time now I have advocated for the dismissal of things that divide Macedonians and the embracing of things that unite us.
From the highlighted section above you can see I have chosen this aspect to comment on. As a distinct ethnicity/language/culture/history it is obvious to me that many obstacles have been put before the Macedonians to inflict division/disharmony/disunity(DDD) in the past and even currently so, this DDD comes from without and within Macedonia/Macedonians throughout the world, it's impact and influence is evident in many aspects of daily life and has been for quite some time - a specific example of this is the "Bucharest Treaty", so when you take a closer look at things that cause and sustain DDD, you will notice among these things the forced changing of people's names - why? because it was designed to cause conflict among the victims and is obviously doing it's job - hence this discussion and the differing viewpoints and opinions. What came to my mind, as a subsequence of thinking about your comments, is that we could view this name change for what it really is - an imposition - and we could use this impostion to begin a movement of defiance and intolerance to actions enforced upon us and subsequently stand up for our rights in the process. I would therefore suggest that we get as many people to change their imposed (slave) names back to thier original family names "en mass' through a coordinated effort, perhaps driven by AMHRC and channelled through the individual state Macedonian Communities - it is my firm belief that this process would have a very stong unifying effect by virtue of a common action for a common purpose for common human rights!
If there is one thing in this world we have that nobody can take away from us is our individual "names", that very thing which identifies us and we identify with, must never be allowed to be changed/altered/taken away from us without our consent and most certainly without a fight, using all of our available resources!
I know that talk is easy and what I propose will ruffle many feathers and take great effort,time and money but for me it is worth it, particularly when i think about the big "Fuck You & The Horse You Rode in on" message that it will send to all those who have been terrorizing our individual and collective identities!

One could argue that individual name changes will result in further division and confusion, something the Macedonian community does not need. However, as you have highlighted, a uniform approach by all Macedonians with imposed names would show a great sense of empowerment and definitely send a strong message to our oppressors and even to the everyday Australian. A good project to think about and plan for the future, yet the success of such an initiative would be quite low. For the majority of Egejci in Australia, I highly doubt that their imposed surname is ranked high on their priority list. Perhaps raising awareness may conjure some discussion and action, however in this case, patience would ultimately be the key to success. We cannot expect thousands of people to make this decision in 'a heartbeat' as some suggest, for not only is that extremely unrealistic, but also expecting too much. An idea such as this would need to gradually gather support and set a specific future date for all Macedonians to revert to their traditional family name. But wouldn't this also raise the question of prolonging changing the name, thus further contradicting the immediate dismissal of a name that was imposed by a foreign Government? The vibe here suggests that any name change should be done ASAP, yet such a project would rely on effective future planning in order to achieve an 'en mass' turnout.

Good points though Makedonche, something for Macedonian organisations to keep in mind.

Would you change someone's name against their will?
To impose your will on someone else in relation to their identity is nothing short of oppression at the highest level. It is a "slave name" only if we use nice terminology.

They weren't even allowed to use Macedonian names for their livestock.

Disgraceful.

No I wouldn't, but by some of you referring to it as a 'slave name,' aren't you pressuring people to change their names? I'll admit I feel uneasy at the moment carrying an altered name, but I believe that is fueled moreso with disappointment in regards to this name-calling, as opposed to guilt.

Can you show us who has suggested it is a mere "one step process", or is this you being creative again?

I first heard Risto use that term with respect to Aegean Macedonians, and I agree with it. Are you suggesting it isn't a slave name, just because it is "harsh"?

Just because many African-American people kept their slave names doesn't discount the fact that they are still slave names.

You just answered your own question. To people who don't know any better about the situation, which is most people in this world, the automatic assumption is that you're Greek. Future generations who don't know any better will think the same.

Those suffixes form part of the Macedonian langauge, and our language naturally shares affinities with other Slavic languages. In the end, it will still be a Macedonian surname, and at least the assumption won't be that you're a Greek. I understand that it may be a complex process to change the name given that not all of your family members would be willing to do the same, that you have achieved certain things by your slave name, etc, but nobody said it would be easy. I would ask you to look at Risto's example for inspiration.

SoM, I don't need to personally highlight words to raise points people imply.The intention of the words speaks far more than breaking down each individual word into their definitions. By a one-step process, I mean that people imply that changing the name back is a decision that can be made in the 'blink of an eye,' 'in a heartbeat,' 'a no brainer,' 'easy.' Call it what you want, but those who say 'If I had an imposed name...I would immediately change it,' aren't aware or immersed in the complexities that arise. This is one area I feel confident in my opinion, as I can personally relate to it. Risto set an example, and perhaps the decision was easy for him, but this cannot be said for all Egejci or Macedonians alike. There's a difference between making excuses, and asking for a bit of respect and understanding into what is a very complicated and sensitive issue.

"Bitch name" = When someone makes you their bitch.
Is that better?

Yeh well even though your joking, this almost seems like the general consensus around here at the moment...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Let me ask everyone this. If a Macedonian woman, preferably with a surname ending in -ov or -ski, married a Greek man with a 'Greek sounding' surname, are they a 'slave' by identifying themselves by a name that is imposed and of Greek origin? Perhaps they should argue that the Greek name was imposed and opt to change it back? What you say of these people? Are they signing away their name and identity?

I am sorry if you're offended, but your sentiment is misguided. Be upset at the people who imposed slave names on your ancestors. And do something about it. As for your above example, it is irrelevant, because if a Macedonian lady married a Greek she changes her surname by consent, and not through a forceful act with the purpose of eradicating her identity. The circumstances are completely different.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I am sorry if you're offended, but your sentiment is misguided. Be upset at the people who imposed slave names on your ancestors. And do something about it. As for your above example, it is irrelevant, because if a Macedonian lady married a Greek she changes her surname by consent, and not through a forceful act with the purpose of eradicating her identity. The circumstances are completely different.

How is my sentiment misguided, when I myself have an altered name? Unless your willing to speak on behalf of me, and thousands of others, please enlighten me into why my opinion and views are misguided?

I am deeply upset at the atrocities the Greeks committed, yet it doesn't help when we are labeled as 'slaves.' The way I see it, any accomplishments I have made under this name are the work of a slave, am I right? I'm disappointed that people here like to rub salt into the wounds inflicted by our oppressors. You lot are meant to be supporting fellow Macedonians, not belittling them and implying they are 'slaves.' Surely there is a better term for these altered names?

SoM, don't try and be sneaky, read what I said under that example and save yourself the trouble of pointing the irrelevancy out for me. I merely said that as a point of discussion, also to incite that the parallels drawn with the Republic hold a similar nature, and are also irrelevant.

I understand that you don't intend to insult anyone, but I can't help but feel both pissed off and inferior with all these words thrown around. People need to remember that we are all Macedonians, there is little points drawing divisions among the people of the differing regions, for we all share the same plight.
Our circumstances may differ, but that does not make any one of us worth more or worthless in comparison to other Macedonians.

[blackcactus]

How is my sentiment misguided, when I myself have an altered name? Unless your willing to speak on behalf of me, and thousands of others, please enlighten me into why my opinion and views are misguided?

I am deeply upset at the atrocities the Greeks committed, yet it doesn't help when we are labeled as 'slaves.' The way I see it, any accomplishments I have made under this name are the work of a slave, am I right? I'm disappointed that people here like to rub salt into the wounds inflicted by our oppressors. You lot are meant to be supporting fellow Macedonians, not belittling them and implying they are 'slaves.' Surely there is a better term for these altered names?

SoM, don't try and be sneaky, read what I said under that example and save yourself the trouble of pointing the irrelevancy out for me. I merely said that as a point of discussion, also to incite that the parallels drawn with the Republic hold a similar nature, and are also irrelevant.

I understand that you don't intend to insult anyone, but I can't help but feel both pissed off and inferior with all these words thrown around. People need to remember that we are all Macedonians, there is little points drawing divisions among the people of the differing regions, for we all share the same plight.
Our circumstances may differ, but that does not make any one of us worth more or worthless in comparison to other Macedonians.

Very well said EM, damn your very eloquent when your in the mood


Negatively labelling the victim and their families for generations to come is irresponsible and counter productive

We expect to have positive support from each other not a witch hunt, finger pointing and labelling

It's a time to be more sensitive not less

We are our sensitivities, our emotions, play with that under the guise of logic and your in for a surprise

None of us would be here if it wasn't for our sensitivities, it's what motivates us, and ultimately makes us human

[Soldier of Macedon]

How is my sentiment misguided, when I myself have an altered name?

It is misguided because you seem to be more upset at me and the others for highlighting the obvious rather than the maggots who did this to your ancestors.

I am deeply upset at the atrocities the Greeks committed, yet it doesn't help when we are labeled as 'slaves.'

You're not a slave. Your ancestors who this was forced upon were. So were mine during Serbian occupation pre-WWII.

You lot are meant to be supporting fellow Macedonians, not belittling them and implying they are 'slaves.' Surely there is a better term for these altered names?

That "lot" merely speaks the truth. What is a "better" term? How could it possibly be "better" if it essentially means the same thing? I don't understand why you wish to dance around the obvious. If it is that offensive to you, why don't you drop the slave name and revert back to an ancestral Macedonian name? You already said you're thinking about doing it. Do it, and set an example for other Macedonians.

SoM, don't try and be sneaky, read what I said under that example and save yourself the trouble of pointing the irrelevancy out for me. I merely said that as a point of discussion.........

I thought I was rather straight forward by highlight the irrelevance of your example. I have no reason to be "sneaky", there is no hidden agenda here EM.

........also to incite that the parallels drawn with the Republic hold a similar nature, and are also irrelevant.

Which parallels? The flag and name change? They aren't irrelevant, they are just another example of the slave mentality among many Macedonians, it transcends the (artifical) borders.

I understand that you don't intend to insult anyone, but I can't help but feel both pissed off and inferior with all these words thrown around.

I don't consider any Macedonian that still uses a slave name as "inferior" and I never would, but I don't agree with any attempt at justifying the continued use of that slave name.

People need to remember that we are all Macedonians, there is little points drawing divisions among the people of the differing regions, for we all share the same plight.

A superficial division was drawn by the Greeks when they imposed slave names on our people. Nevertheless, you are still as Macedonian to me as Peter Daikos or Darko Pancev. But can't you see how dropping the slave name will break down some of the barriers caused by this superficial division?

[Soldier of Macedon]

We expect to have positive support from each other not a witch hunt, finger pointing and labelling

There is neither a "witch hunt" or "finger pointing". You're conjuring this in your own mind because you're being too sensitive.

It's a time to be more sensitive not less

No, it's time for the exact opposite. Macedonians need to toughen up and confront reality. The overly sensitive approach has never worked for us when it comes to these situations and has only led to a false sense of security by naive Macedonians. That eventually leads to acceptance, just like with this ventilator disgrace. Not wanting to hurt sensitivities is the reason why it is accepted as commonplace among many Macedonians these days.

[blackcactus]

My reaction will be reflected in others outside this forum

Some others that take on this crusade may not be as "nice" as you, when this occurs expect the normal human reaction of push back and distancing

I must admit I don't see much finesse in how Macedonians treat each other, this sensitive approach your talking about must of happened before my time

[Risto the Great]

Yeh well even though your joking, this almost seems like the general consensus around here at the moment...

I'm sorry EM. The Greeks government made your (and my) people their bitches. They changed their names and denied them the most fundamental of human rights. Is there a nice way to put it?

I'm getting so tired of not being allowed to call a spade a spade. If it offends, think about why it offends. Smart people like you will understand. I am sympathetic to some reasons but I oppose the injustice of changing my family name more. If more Macedonians were principled like this, we would have a Macedonia that is the homeland of Macedonians.

I changed my name before anyone else did in my family. Was I the most patriotic, hell no. My father's voice is still remembered by many Macedonians throughout the world and some (less than patriotic) people might nervously play down his ferocious approach to his identity. He changed his name after I did but was fully supportive of my decision. I got mine before I received my degree. If you are reluctant to change yours because you have forged so much of an identity in your 17 years you fear the world might forget you, then you must have little faith in your future. I'm confident the new you with an empowering surname will do even better.

[Risto the Great]

I must admit I don't see much finesse in how Macedonians treat each other, this sensitive approach your talking about must of happened before my time

BC, why is it so bad to challenge people thoroughly in regards to their stance. Testing their stance in this manner can reveal a great deal. The simple reality is that people can be nice to each other and get along very well but can be no good for the Macedonian Cause in the process. Do you accept that if I went hugging every Serbian flag waving supporter of SDSM that it will be of no use whatsoever? Some people are simply not worth it, the sooner we find out, the sooner we can move along and focus attention where it counts.

Not all enemies of Macedonia will come around to your way of thinking if you are nice to them.