Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Basically its saying that Albanians ( aka Arvanites ) had a significant role in the Greek Independence movement against the Ottomans. Surprise Surprise as if most Greeks dont know this already.

You really believe that? In my experience, the mere mention of an Albanian element (let alone its significance) in the 1820's war to most Greeks is anathema. They don't accept the fact, and when coming from a Macedonian, irrespective of how diplomatic the approach, they think they're being insulted. Imagine how they would react if they found out their first president was an Albanian who couldn't even speak Greek! Seldom does the conversation even get that far.

Voltron, you may be informed about these matters, but I doubt the greater chunk of the Greek population in Greece or anywhere else would even have a clue about these things. Your successive governments have done a great job sweeping most 'sensitive' matters under the rug.

[Pelister]

All the contemporary sources talk about 'Greeks' and the term 'Greek' is thrown around alot, but when they get into cultural detail such as customs, costumes and even language, it is clear that they are referring to Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. The 'ethnic Greek' is a fabrication, plain and simple. There was never a group of people who shared common customs, a common language and a common heritage on the ground, and who called themselves 'Greeks'. The best anyone could hope for was a religious marker - not an ethnic, nor a linguistic marker, hence the definition of the 1821 Constitution where Greek=Christian.

[George S.]

Voltron the last thing yor govt will do is openly say that they are less greek than they are
willing to admit.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

You really believe that? In my experience, the mere mention of an Albanian element (let alone its significance) in the 1820's war to most Greeks is anathema. They don't accept the fact, and when coming from a Macedonian, irrespective of how diplomatic the approach, they think they're being insulted. Imagine how they would react if they found out their first president was an Albanian who couldn't even speak Greek! Seldom does the conversation even get that far.

Yes, Il tell you why you came across a dead end when discussing this issue with Greeks. If you would of asked if the Arvanites played a role in the 1820's Im sure you would of received a different response. But when you say Albanians, of course you willl receive some resistance. The only time I use the reference Albanians is in this forum for the sake of the arguement. Arvanites is the term I use to define them. Thats what they call themselves. This however is an issue of identity. Regarding Koundouriotis, Most people dont think like that. Personally speaking I couldnt care less what background our PM has. As long as he is a Patriot and someone that will take the country forward. Most Greeks feel the same. Its ironic how people insist we are racist when every aspect of our lives shows otherwise.

Voltron, you may be informed about these matters, but I doubt the greater chunk of the Greek population in Greece or anywhere else would even have a clue about these things. Your successive governments have done a great job sweeping most 'sensitive' matters under the rug.

Its not about sweeping it under the rug. Its about trying to dissect a fabric of society to justify political correctness. What would it matter if a PM was of Albanian origin ? Or if Arvanites/Albanians played a role in our independence ? What purpose would that serve aside from trying to instill division or a sense of being different ? I have a hard time understanding that approach. Again, this leads down the path of " identity " so I willl leave it as is.

[Stojacanec]

All the contemporary sources talk about 'Greeks' and the term 'Greek' is thrown around alot, but when they get into cultural detail such as customs, costumes and even language, it is clear that they are referring to Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. The 'ethnic Greek' is a fabrication, plain and simple. There was never a group of people who shared common customs, a common language and a common heritage on the ground, and who called themselves 'Greeks'. The best anyone could hope for was a religious marker - not an ethnic, nor a linguistic marker, hence the definition of the 1821 Constitution where Greek=Christian.

The problem that today's Greeks run into is whenever they see a reference to Greek scripts or greek speaking (in antiquity) they immediately equate that with an ethnic greek of the past. They then make the unequivocal assumption that they are the direct ancestors and have a lineage.

We all know that Catholicism has the largest Christian following today and Rome was the centre of the Religion and power since its inception where the bible was translated to Latin.

Heaven forbid if today's italians go by the same mantra as today's greeks whenever they come across references to Rome, Roman Kingdom, Latin Scripts, the catholic religion.

[Voltron]

The problem is certain circles that try to paint everything off as " Lingua Franca, Orthodoxy, Roman, Romaica, ect " in order to minimise anything Greek. I see it all the time.

[George S.]

It's hard to convince them as they have been brainwashed & can only think one way.THey are extremely simplistic in everything they do.That's why they insist that macedonians don't exist.They have concocted propaganda to meet all their needs & to counteract all forms of arguments.From the present to the past they also interfere in the affairs of macedonia.Above all they are ready & willing to lie to get their way.As votron has stated they are rotten to the core.

[Onur]

Voltron, do not play stupid word games. Arvanite means Albanian, just like the Turkish version "Arnaut". There is no different society as Arvanites. They are simply Albanians.

What would it matter if a PM was of Albanian origin ? Or if Arvanites/Albanians played a role in our independence ? What purpose would that serve aside from trying to instill division or a sense of being different ? I have a hard time understanding that approach.

It doesn't matter shit but the thing is, you Greeks keep denying this and all other facts about your recent history and that`s our point here. When you and your official state policy would stop denying the historical facts and whenever you stop distorting the truth, then these arguments would stop as well. So, whenever you stop telling lies like all modern Greeks are the children of Achilles and there are only ethnic Greeks lives in Greece, everything would be better. For fuck sake, you even consider the Turkish minority in western Thrace as "Hellenic muslims"!!!! Learn to accept the facts like your baklava, your coffee, your music and your fustanella are not coming from ancient Greeks.

For example, the composer of Turkish national anthem was partly Albanian but we don't deny that and we have zero problem with it. Why you cant do the same and learn to rejoice your history? I know, this is not possible without breaking the immense repression of your racist church upon you. I think you Greeks need to realize a reform for your church, just like western Europeans did in 16th century and then learn to be a modern secular state or otherwise they will continue to poison your minds with lies and propaganda and nothing will change.

[Voltron]

Word games ? If you think there is no impact between the meaning of Arvanite and Albanian than your not familier with the terms and its usage. Just to educate you a little, TourkoAlvanos refers to your henchmen during the Ottoman Empire ( Albanian Muslims ). Arvanites were Christian Albanians allied against the Ottomans. Today they do not identify themselves as Albanians proper but as Arvanites.
I know its hard for you to understand that piece of reality, but thats not my problem.
And to take it a step further there are countless Arvanites that self identify today as Greeks. Your the one playing stupid.

FYI tell a Bosnian he just a Muslim Serb and stop the word games. See how that goes.

[Onur]

It`s totally irrelevant how you or how they define themselves. Their ancestors was speaking Albanian dialect for centuries, they followed Albanian customs, therefore they are Albanians, end of discussion.

Even if i consider myself as a Nigerian or Australian Aborigine, it doesn't changes the fact that i am a Turk cuz my ancestors was speaking Turkish and following Turkish customs. As far as i remember, you told me that your parents were from Istanbul. So, even if you consider yourself as an American now, this doesn't change the fact that you are a Greek with roots from Istanbul.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

It`s totally irrelevant how you or how they define themselves. Their ancestors was speaking Albanian dialect for centuries, they followed Albanian customs, therefore they are Albanians, end of discussion.

Its not irrelevant how they define themselves. Even if both of us know where their origins are from. Its about showing courtesy and respecting how they see themselves. Thats all. As for you last sentence, I dont disagree.

Even if i consider myself as a Nigerian or Australian Aborigine, it doesn't changes the fact that i am a Turk cuz my ancestors was speaking Turkish and following Turkish customs. As far as i remember, you told me that your parents were from Istanbul. So, even if you consider yourself as an American now, this doesn't change the fact that you are a Greek with roots from Istanbul.

Agreed.

[George S.]

Voltron just remember that the poulation that was a majority in 1913 was the macedonian & greek only accounted only about 10%.So if we say that there were 1 million macedonians the greeks would be 100k (a minority).After that the greeks pursued a policy of genocide
destroying anything macedonian,forbidding of language ,forced assimilation.The macedonians had no rights at all.So you put that in perspective when arguing.THe evidence is overwhelming.

[Voltron]

Its in perspective, Trust me when I say I can understand how that feels. Anyway, remember this is not about the Macedoinian issue. Its a seperate topic.

[Orfej]

Fair enough topic. Just to clarify the subject, are we talking about Mainland Greece ?

I believe it was more than 30 % but I wont exaggerate numbers either. I use the Chroncles of Monemvasia as a reference to my opinion and Byzantine sources. I will try to post them later on, many of you are probably familiar with them already. But this topic seems fitting.

It doesn't surprise me that you base your astonishingly stupid claim on a very controversial document, the Chronicle of Monemvasia!! It's author is unknown, it's full with mistakes and the historians have never agreed about it's worth. But you use it to prove that the Neo-Greeks carry more then 30% of ancient Hellenic blood in them.
If you take a logical approach and go step by step from Ancient through Medieval and Modern times and look at all the wars, invasions, plagues, assimilation and migrations that happened, the big number of slaves in Ancient Greece, the Multiethnic empires( Eastern Roman and Ottoman empires) etc!! I think it's enough for you to understand the absurdity of the claim!

My only reservation is regarding Turks and Roma. For Turks, I dont beileve they had any type of impact.

The Turks surely had an impact on your ethnicity. You forget all the Turkish speaking `Greeks` that you incorporated, for which you claim had a Greek ancestry! That's highly unlikely, a kind of wishfull thinking. It's like claiming that the Albanian, Vlach and Macedonian speakers in Greece had Greek ancestry(not that many of your compatriots/idiots don't think that)

[Voltron]

I see you have a problem with the Chronicle of Monemvasia. Do you know thats one of the articles Fallemeyer based his findings on ? Yes I agree and I stated it is controversial. Did you read Peter Charanis book link I posted ? You should, its not that long and maybe you can point out parts which you disagree with. Also, you using empires as some sort of apocolyptic ending is strange. What does the fact we had Empires in our land have to do with the ceasing of our existance ?

The Turks surely had an impact on your ethnicity. You forget all the Turkish speaking `Greeks` that you incorporated, for which you claim had a Greek ancestry! That's highly unlikely, a kind of wishfull thinking. It's like claiming that the Albanian, Vlach and Macedonian speakers in Greece had Greek ancestry(not that many of your compatriots/idiots don't think that)

I think you should do a little more searching regarding these "Turkish Greeks". Also they may have had a greater impact in Macedonia but not on the general population. Regardless to say they are not Turks but infact Greeks. Their is linguistic evidence to support this.