Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[Voltron]

This exact issue was tackled by Historian John Shea in chapter 4 of The Great Ethnic Mix of Greece, pages 77 to 96, in his book "Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation". Among other things, John Shea proves that even the ancient people were not homogeneous.

"It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in Attica was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000. In Sparta there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of Athens were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of Sparta all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented ´special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline.´ Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly, ´made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name.´ Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, ´The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous´." (Pages 83 and 84, John Shea, Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation)".

Do you want my opinion on Greeks of antiquity in Athens ? Homogenous does not mean genetic purity. People have to start understanding the term and usage of word.

How far back in time do you want to go on this ?

[Voltron]

voltron do you know that greece just changed the names on the run.THe names of toponyms were thousands of years old .Greece just made them up.A few it forgot to change.

Its not a few George. We have many still intact.
Im sure they were old, I dont think they were thousands of years though.

[Daskalot]

George, El Bre,

Not all are changed / restored. I feel the best policy to this would be to keep the original name alive when speaking. We do it all the time between Greeks. Where are you going ? To Constantinople. If we talk to a foreigner we use Istanbul. I guess we just have to deal with it in some way.

Please let us know which were not changed or restored?
Also many place names were just made up, no old name was used. Why do this if not to paint the region in Greek colours?

[Voltron]

Please let us know which were not changed or restored?
Also many place names were just made up, no old name was used. Why do this if not to paint the region in Greek colours?

Konitsa, Metsovo are just two example I can easily think of.
Daskalot, I dont necessarily disagree with you on what your saying.

But what should I say then to the Turks ? How many of our toponyms were changed. We are wiped out over there, at least take some relief that there is still a Macedonians presence in Greece. For whatever its worth.

[Daskalot]

4413 toponymes were changed in Greece from 1913 to 1996 which of 1805 in the part of Macedonia that was annexed by Greece in 1913.
Doesnt this tell you that Macedonia was not as Greek as you Greeks like to claim.
41% of the names changed were to be found in the annexed part of Macedonia. Coincidence?

[Voltron]

4413 toponymes were changed in Greece from 1913 to 1996 which of 1805 in the part of Macedonia that was annexed by Greece in 1913.
Doesnt this tell you that Macedonia was not as Greek as you Greeks like to claim.
41% of the names changed were to be found in the annexed part of Macedonia. Coincidence?

Which all can be attributed to the incursion and settlement in our region. We even have them in the Peloponnese. Of course its no coincidence. Espescially in Macedonia where it should be higher than the rest of Greece.

Im not discussing here the Greek claim to Macedonia. So I dont see the reason to open up this subject here.

Here for example, I was looking for info to post regarding the Dispilio Thread and here are some names I came across. Let me know what you think of them. Are they changed or even adulterated ?

http://dispilio.web.auth.gr/pages/homepage/homepage_en.htm

"There is nothing such as a “final conclusion”. At least that’s what we decided resting by the lake and looking in front of us at the blue mount Vitsi turning gradually into purple in the quiet summer evening.
Neither is there a “final conception” of this mountain, where nowadays with the first autumn rain local peasants collect delicious mushrooms to pleasurably accompany their night feasts.
How can we ever talk “finally” about prehistoric land-workers crossing the Murgana and Alevitsa gorge, about Neolithic potters meeting somewhere between Devoli and Dunavec, between Dispilio and Aliakmon River, if we cannot “finally” conceive the illegal immigrants crossing the borderline which leads from “there” to an attractive “here”?
We are unable to talk about the “final conclusion” since the mysterious prehistory was made from materials found either in an unknown “here” or in a “there” full of hope and dreams.
Therefore, we will keep mumbling theory oriented answers to this serious torturing question. Answers that would trigger a hilarious laughter to the Neolithic farmers, if they could ever listen to them. And they must have been laughing quite loud in that era, having tasted maybe the delicious mushrooms of Vissinia but ignoring the bleeding bodies of the Greek civil war. So, resting by the lake, we may not have at our disposal the “final conclusion”, but we have deeply inside us inscribed the short history of this excavation and the toughness of its potential."

[Daskalot]

Also to be noted is that the annexed part of Macedonia encompasses 34177 square kilometers of the total area of Greece which is 131940 square kilometers, that is about 26% of the total landmass in Greece which got 41% of the names changed.
With simple math one can easily see that Greece has gone to great lenghts to alter most toponymes in the annexed part to Greek ones. Why?

[Voltron]

Also to be noted is that the annexed part of Macedonia encompasses 34177 square kilometers of the total area of Greece which is 131940 square kilometers, that is about 26% of the total landmass in Greece which got 41% of the names changed.
With simple math one can easily see that Greece has gone to great lenghts to alter most toponymes in the annexed part to Greek ones. Why?

Its more complicated than that. You have to find out how many were not restored but changed completely. Who wants to sit down and figure that out ?

[Daskalot]

The interesting question is how many toponymes were there in the annexed part in 1913 and how many were there in 1996. I would like to obtain those figures so I can put them in relation to the 1805 changed or as you like to say restored.
When you say restored, how old is the toponyme in question? From which era in time is it sourced from?

[Voltron]

Solun to Thessaloniki is one example. I would imagine it would be quite old to restore to the original name.

[Daskalot]

Solun to Thessaloniki is one example. I would imagine it would be quite old to restore to the original name.

Do you have a source for this change?
I do really think that the official name during the Ottoman era was Selanik.
In this case why revive a 2000 year old name?
Why not use the more modern Salonica?

[Voltron]

Do you have a source for this change?
I do really think that the official name during the Ottoman era was Selanik.
In this case why revive a 2000 year old name?
Why not use the more modern Salonica?

Turkish word is derived from the Greek word so there is no reason to use the Turkish version. FYI we do use the name Salonica often.
The official name of course is Thessaloniki.

I dont see any reasons why we shouldnt revive a name from antiquity.

[Daskalot]

No you do as you please.
Can you now tell me what made change Voden into Edessa when you historicaly called the town Vodenon, why go back to ancient times?

[Voltron]

I dont know, in fact I have never heard the word Vodenon.
I guess its a way of "rectifing" certain places in history that had been conquered.

[Daskalot]

I dont know, in fact I have never heard the word Vodenon.
I guess its a way of "rectifing" certain places in history that had been conquered.

And why keeping the non Greek name of Florina when Lerin is closer to the olden day name of the town, Chlerinion?